Reason not to tell tandem student details about what happens after opening

[efs4ever 3]

Matt here was given a complete briefing, including what we would do to help seat the harness in preparation for landing. Basically I have them all loosened up and tell them to lift their knees up to their chest in order to sink down to a sitting position in the harness (RWS). Unfortunately, Matt only remembered the knees in the chest instruction, rather than the ARCH HARD ON EXIT speech. You see the result. Students' brains do funny things when confronted with the DOOR! He was trying like hell to get those knees in his chest the entire dive. NOW I don't tell them anything in detail about that kind of stuff.

Russell M. Webb D 7014
Attorney at Law
713 385 5676
https://www.tdcparole.com

[matthewcline 0]

Ahh Yes the "work" jump. He was just keepen' ya on your toes!

I have a few of those a month. But I still give them the whole breif as I have from the very begining. It has more to do with my military training and my peice of mind to stay with the same check list and change as little as possible.

Matt

An Instructors first concern is student safety.
So, start being safe, first!!!

[tombuch 0]

That stuff happens, but you can at least minimize it. Give the whole briefing. Teach them. Then retrieve the information from them to make sure they know what you want them to know. Good teaching is all about two way communication...sure it can be hard, but that's what the job is all about.
.

Tom Buchanan
Instructor Emeritus
Comm Pilot MSEL,G
Author: JUMP! Skydiving Made Fun and Easy

[bodypilot1 0]

I dont explain any of the landing techniques until we are under canopy.
I think telling a student, at anytime before the jump, to bring his legs up to their chest (fetal position) may stick in their head sometime if they get confused.
Also, the picture looks as though the side laterals are very loose and extended, thus letting the student get into this position easily by dropping his legs.
I always tighten the side laterals much tighter so even if they do drop their knees, it will never put us in this akward position.


Be safe.
Ed

www.WestCoastWingsuits.com
www.PrecisionSkydiving.com

[diablopilot 2]

Students remeber best the FIRST and LAST things you say. There fore I tell my students we'll talk about landing after we open the parachute, start with the exit and arch, and end with the pull sequence. It's the most valuable use of the 5 minutes I have for briefing.

----------------------------------------------
You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[Deuce 1]

I give them 5 minutes on the ground and then go over everything again at about 7 grand. I include the "knees up, feet out, my feet first and slide until I tell you to stand up". I go over the last bit again at a thousand feet. It's been working pretty good for me.

But some people are not instructable. This lady was an active duty USA Master Sergeant. Brave lady, big lady, but there was no teaching her anything.

My wiggiest tandem to date.

Photo by Matthias Lundblad

[efs4ever 3]

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I don't explain any of the landing techniques until we are under canopy.
I think telling a student, at anytime before the jump, to bring his legs up to their chest (fetal position) may stick in their head sometime if they get confused.
Also, the picture looks as though the side laterals are very loose and extended, thus letting the student get into this position easily by dropping his legs.
I always tighten the side laterals much tighter so even if they do drop their knees, it will never put us in this akward position.


Be safe.
Ed

Well, Ed, it does appear they were loose, but I assure you he cinched em down good with me. Uh, there's a little "cushion" behind him and in front of me that keeps those little buggers from going all the way to the links.

I make them exhale before we cinch em down. Like saddling a horse.

Russell M. Webb D 7014
Attorney at Law
713 385 5676
https://www.tdcparole.com

[Kimblair13 0]

That is a fricken awesome picture.!

[Deuce 1]

Matthias got one of us going head down that is even better (scarier) but I can't find it. She had us barrel-rolling and I couldn't stop it, so I just timed it so I could get the drogue out before we went back over again. That picture is right before we got snapped back belly to earth.

[skydiverton 0]

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Matthias got one of us going head down that is even better (scarier) but I can't find it. She had us barrel-rolling and I couldn't stop it, so I just timed it so I could get the drogue out before we went back over again. That picture is right before we got snapped back belly to earth.

Sound a bit like you are proud of these pictures!
I think you should shame yourself for throwing a droque in this position!

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Using your droque to gain stability is a bad habit,
Especially when you are jumping a sport rig

[FLYBERT71 0]

Judge not lest ye be judged. It sounds like he was doing everything he could to get stable before he threw the drogue. Look at the size difference between the two. Wearing a suit with more arm and leg control may have helped, but I would say that he felt this was what was needed to stop the situation he was in.

"If you have time to panic, you have time to do something more productive."
Josh Whipple 7/15/70-2/10/05

[Andrewwhyte 1]

You are not supposed to use the drogue to get stable,... but you aren't supposed to go in either.
My concern with the picture is the cameraman should never let the angle get that steep; he should have been more concerned with backing out at that point rather than the shot.

[Kimblair13 0]

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he should have been more concerned with backing out at that point rather than the shot.

...But it's all about the shot!

Regardless of what the TI or the Camera Flyer was doing, it is a sweet shot.

Awesome pictures can be of not so great things.

[Deuce 1]

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Matthias got one of us going head down that is even better (scarier) but I can't find it. She had us barrel-rolling and I couldn't stop it, so I just timed it so I could get the drogue out before we went back over again. That picture is right before we got snapped back belly to earth.

Sound a bit like you are proud of these pictures!
I think you should shame yourself for throwing a droque in this position!

Not at all! I'm in no way a daredevil, especially with my tandem students.

This was a near-death skydive. She was longer than me, was as heavy as me 200+, and was just nuts.

She thrashed and bicycled through the whole thing. I actually considered that I might destroy the drogue and main during terminal deployment with her, and was ready to go right to reserve. When I say "wiggiest" I also mean scariest.

We were hauling ass so hard right out the door it was amazing. I trust Matthias implicitly and explicitly with all of our safety. I had to get the drogue out eventually to get to the main, and when I threw it was the best opportunity I had.

I agree completely (camera flier as well) that the drogue should not be thrown until stable, but, no drogue-no main. You have to throw it out eventually, and taking 500 pounds to tandem terminal is a bad thing, however much fun it might be for head-down camera fliers.

The point of my post was that some people do not have the ability to listen and be taught. Those times you have to make hard decisions. Whether it be Tandem or AFF or Coaching.

[NSEMN8R 0]

How high were you when you threw it?

[feuergnom 22]

ok - bash me fo my not-yet-but-soon-to become-TI-0,2's if you want: i always thought it was a good idea fo a TI to "dress fo success". read enough fabric around you and something realy skintight on the student

TI's in shorts & t-shirts may look cool but are_IMVHO_easyly outmaneuvered by uncooperative pax

but what do i know anyway?

The universal aptitude for ineptitude makes any human accomplishment an incredible miracle

dudeist skydiver # 666

[AggieDave 6]

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TI's in shorts & t-shirts may look cool but are_IMVHO_easyly outmaneuvered by uncooperative pax

Passing out due to heat exhaustion while running back to back to back to back tandems is neat as well.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[tombuch 0]

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TI's in shorts & t-shirts may look cool but are_IMVHO_easyly outmaneuvered by uncooperative pax

Passing out due to heat exhaustion while running back to back to back to back tandems is neat as well.

So dress for freefall and skip the back-to-back loads if it's too hot for you. Both can be small factors that together can conspire to create a fatality. We should be targeting the highest safety possible, with the fewest risk. Everytime we reduce the margins by even a little bit we cheat the student.

Tom Buchanan
Instructor Emeritus
Comm Pilot MSEL,G
Author: JUMP! Skydiving Made Fun and Easy

[Liemberg 0]

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Everytime we reduce the margins by even a little bit we cheat the student.

Who cares about cheating the student? O well, wait, lets see - WE ARE PLANNING TO END UP UNDER THE SAME PARACHUTE

Then again, I have jumped in shorts and T-shirt, but always with pax that were also in shorts and T-shirt. On the picture it is obvious that if THIS pax is gonna be 'uncooperative' the TI WILL be hosed, dressed the way he is. He's got almost nothing on his legs and nothing on his arms, she's is not only big, but also wearing a complete jumpsuit - can you say drag?

Not one of the smartest moves, giving your passenger a larger and more effective controlsurface than yourself...

IMHO if you are going to take up just about every person who walks in the door pays his dues and signs the waiver you'd better operate in a way that you can *guarantee* an open main parachute regardless if the passenger does or does not do as told. For - in case there's a TI who didn't know - sometimes they dont do what they are told.

Anybody can steer the boat in a calm sea...

The picture that started the thread (passenger with knees up throughout the freefall) shows something that may be a bit more work and it may spoil the video but other than that its no biggie; deploying your drogue on your back is.

"Whoever in discussion adduces authority uses not intellect but memory." - Leonardo da Vinci
A thousand words...

[skydiverton 0]

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ok - bash me fo my not-yet-but-soon-to become-TI-0,2's if you want: i always thought it was a good idea fo a TI to "dress fo success". read enough fabric around you and something realy skintight on the student

TI's in shorts & t-shirts may look cool but are_IMVHO_easyly outmaneuvered by uncooperative pax

but what do i know anyway?

Correct, becomes even more important when you are not that big yourself.
Dress-for-success and go for a clean exit. Had some passengers too that de-arched and forgot everything on exit. With the wind blowing on your belly on exit, so what?

I do not know what you know, but most important is to use common sense and use the laws of physics, do not fight them

Going back to the first post of this thread.
This sometimes happens also if you do not tell the passenger about the landing before the jump. Just deal with it. Fly the exit yourself, do not let the pax fly the exit. Might rock a little onder the droque, nothing serious.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Using your droque to gain stability is a bad habit,
Especially when you are jumping a sport rig

[Deuce 1]

I'm not wearing shorts, I'm wearing baggy pants, but I am wearing a T-shirt.

I've got about 400 tandems now, and my suit was not a significant contribution on this one. This chick was just nuts. She seemed to be listening, she was cool as we moved to the door, and then she did the magnificent de-arch.

I did not pitch on my back. We were barrel-rolling and moving towards tandem terminal, max load. As we came around to belly to earth, I pitched, we continued to roll as the drogue inflated, we did not get inverted again, but were pulled belly-to earth by the drogue right as that picture was taken. If I had pitched in that position the drogue would not be inflated.

I'm not being defensive, I'm explaining. If Mr. Booth want's to chime in on what to do, or somebody else who's opinion I respect because I know them, I'm open to criticism.

Sometimes the student does not cooperate, I posted my "no shit there I was" photo to help out other tandem masters and encourage dialogue.

Am I ashamed? What a silly question. No.

Did this student de-arch and put her hands and legs out in front of herself because it was the first or last thing I told her? No.

I was slightly bigger than her. As to the suit I put her in, you simply don't put pudgy, big, middle-aged ladies in skin tight suits. The big ones you want to slow down so the camera flier can keep up. It's the little ones you put in skin tight suits.

People, you have to see the video.

Would a baggy suit have helped? It wouldn't have hurt, but it would not have made the difference of allowing me to get belly to earth before deploying under tandem terminal.

I got her under control when the drogue was out, and that was something in itself. I have seen Master tandem masters have to deploy under droguefall early because the student was just too wiggy.

So, what do we tell the students when, and why?

As to the "shame on you" nonsense, I'm immune to it, or I wouldn't have posted the picture. If you have something positive to contribute, please do. Learn from my positive experience. Hone it.

I don't consider this a screwup on my part. I could have borrowed a baggy suit to jump in, but that would only have made things marginally better. You had to be there.

On my tandem system: No Drogue=No Main. If the student is not going to get stable, you have to get it out there. It happens. That's why in my tandem training the instructor on the front on one dive does everything he or she can to prevent you from getting stable and takes you to tandem terminal.

If it was so easy to prevent, it would not be part of the lesson plan.

Learn from it or not. It happens.

[Shark 0]

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If it was so easy to prevent, it would not be part of the lesson plan.

Learn from it or not. It happens.

....and going in is not an alternative.

Just think of the paperwork involved and the debate on dizzydotcom.

[Deuce 1]

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If it was so easy to prevent, it would not be part of the lesson plan.

Learn from it or not. It happens.

....and going in is not an alternative.

Just think of the paperwork involved and the debate on dizzydotcom.

Shark, from some of the very sharp criticism, I need to ask you if you are being sarcastic?

As I tell my students: If you die, I will probably die with you, so knock that off. I have things to do tonight, so let's get about our skydive and stop talking abouty the end, eh?

[skydog 2]

Hey Deuce,

Shit happens and you dealt with it.

I hate it when you post something and all you get is a lot of "you should'ves".... especially from those whose only qualifications come from reading these forums.

If there are lessons to be learnt then I expect you have sat down and rationalised them already.

Thanks for posting.

Bryn

Journey not destination.....

[DanglesOZQld 0]

Sometimes some students just make you work a little harder.

I definitely agree with having a baggy jumpsuit aka dressing for success but after you have done a few tandems you should be able to get out of situations with more than just "gee I wish I had a suit to help me fly this tandem properly!"

It's the nature of the beast, sometimes you are going to have shit happen no matter what you do and that is what the training is for in becoming a tm in the first place. Oh, and the little reason why we tm's get PAID for it!!

If you are complacent in the "what if's" department or think it is just another skydive then give up being a tm. And to those who are not tm's and think they have the answers do a course and see how easy the 1 in a hundred or so can be.

BSBD! -Mark.

"A Scar is just a Tattoo with a story!!!"