Bergen 0 #1 May 2, 2005 I was wondering what guidance you give students regarding bailing out of an A/C during an emergency. The SIM leaves it up to the DZs. I have heard that below 1,000, a student should generally stay with the plane. Above 1,000-they should use their reserve. My real question is when should they use their main? My specific concern is avoiding a cypres fire. I know some DZs that recommend deploying the main above 2,000. Does that sound low? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Travman 6 #2 May 2, 2005 At my DZ we were told anything at 1500 ft and below you go straight for your reserve, above 1500ft you can use your main. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
riggerrob 558 #3 May 2, 2005 When determing DZ policy on bail-out procedures, keep AAD scaring altitudes in mind. For example, an FXC 12000 will fire any time it senses a rapid rate of descent below its firing altitude (usually 1000 or 1200'). On the other other hand, Cypres must climb above 1500 before it arms. So if your school uses FXCs, you might as well tell students to "go straight to their reserves" because chances are they will scare their FXCs anyways. Just to mess with you, I know of a couple of static-line schools that connect all static-lines before take-off and their bail-out drills include tossing students out and trusting static-lines to deploy mains. Also remember that while reserve CANOPIES deploy quicker, most students will fumble with (unfamiliar) ripcords negating any reserve advantage. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
larsrulz 0 #4 May 2, 2005 QuoteAlso remember that while reserve CANOPIES deploy quicker, most students will fumble with (unfamiliar) ripcords negating any reserve advantage. Maybe this is an advantage of training with 182s or maybe you know something I don't, but we train our students that if they need to exit the plane with the intent of using their reserve (due to low altitude), then they sit in the plane with their feet on the step, lock their thumbs through their reserve handle, and as they fall out they go into an arch, which pulls their reserve ripcord in doing so. Now as we have a 182, which have good glide characteristics, it's unlikely students will bail at a low altitude under such relaxed environment. I'm sure if something dramatic happens such that bail out is called for by the pilot below 2000', then i can see things getting complicated. Fortunately I don't have my I quite yet, so I don't have to worry about this as much. If I have a coach student when bail out is called for in the caravan, then I'll tell my student which handle to pull and trust them to do it. I got a strong urge to fly, but I got no where to fly to. -PF Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
lug 4 #5 May 2, 2005 Bellow 2000’ land with the airplane, between 2000’ and 4000’ exit reserve, above 4000’ exit main.Memento Mori Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mark 102 #6 May 3, 2005 QuoteBelow 2000’ land with the airplane, between 2000’ and 4000’ exit reserve, above 4000’ exit main. These altitudes are considerably higher than ones I've heard suggested at many of the dropzones I've visited. Can you tell us what factors you considered when choosing these altitudes? Do the instructors at your dropzone agree, or are you free to choose what you think is appropriate? Your profile says "AFF Jumpmaster" (a non-USPA rating); would you recommend these altitudes for a Level 8 or Category G/H AFF student? How about for static line or IAD students? Mark Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SkymonkeyONE 3 #7 May 3, 2005 We keep it pretty common sense here at Raeford. First of all, everyone in the plane only reacts at the prompting of the pilot. Students are taught to always take commands from their instructors in the plane and here is what they do: -below 1000 feet they are landing with the plane -1000-2500 feet (their decision altitude) they will exit on their reserve. Out of the Otter they are taught to grab their reserve ripcord, extend their right hand out in front of them (like diving) and dive to the rear counting "one thousand, pull thousand", ultimately ending up with both hands in front of them like diving. The "one thousand" count gets them clear of the tail before blousing their reserve. Out of a Cessna 182 the student will, upon command, pivot their feet out onto the step and dive to the rear in the same manner as described above. More experienced students and experienced skydivers will use whatever exit style they prefer out of each aircraft: poised or diving. -2500-4000 feet they will bail out on their main. Out of the otter they will have their left hand out in front of them (like diving) and their right hand on their PC (BOC mounted here). On exit they will dive to the rear and count "one thousand, throw thousand" and end up with both hands in front of them like diving. Method of egress out of a C-182 is as described above: pivot feet out onto strut with right hand on PC and dive to the rear deploying on the "throw thousand" count. -above 4000 feet and with sufficient time, early (not solo exiting yet) students will be launched off the airplane by one JM and deployed at standard altitude. 2500 feet is the "exit on main" altitude as that is the students decision altitude. If the main works, great. If it malfunctions then they are still above their 2000 feet "handles pulled" altitude and can activate their reserve. Chuck Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Bergen 0 #8 May 3, 2005 As I understand it, a student Cypres will fire at 750 ft if the student has a total, (100 fps descent) or 1,000 ft if the student has a partial (50 fps descent). Also, you have to be 1500 ft agl before the unit will arm. Freefall is about 150-200 fps. Given that, with a 2,000 ft main bailout, if the student hesitates, has a snivel, or a partial, they have a good chance of 2 canopies out at 1,000. They have almost no time to recognize a malfunction or chop it. In fairness, our DZO is pretty confident that two giant student canopies out is not that big a deal. I have no experience with that. At our DZ, we assume the Cypres has a 1,000 ft error and don't allow the students to spiral below 2,000. I'd argue that the advantage of having two shots at a good canopy has to be weighed against the possibilitiy of having two canopies out. I'm inclined to have the student use the reserve below 4,000, giving them 1,000 to get it open and 500 ft under canopy before they make their decision to chop. I'd love to hear from some more instructors, particularly your reasoning. Thanks in advance Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
riggerrob 558 #9 May 3, 2005 In fairness, our DZO is pretty confident that two giant student canopies out is not that big a deal. I have no experience with that. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> We have experience with two student canopies out (Skymaster 290 and Tempo 250). If you scare an FXC after the main has started to inflate, the reserve will gracefully inflate behind the main. As long as you are VERY GENTLE with main toggles, the reserve will just follow the main around the sky. Better yet, never unstow the main toggles. I suspect that most of the solo down-planes were caused by jumpers panicing about turning into the wind for landing and trying too steep, too close to the ground. This type of panic turn banks the main canopy faster than the reserve can follow. Since two huge square student canopies land at about the same rate as unflarable rounds, you are better off leaving the controls alone and just doing an aggressive PLF. The key to two-outs is TINY CONTROL INPUTS. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> At our DZ, we assume the Cypres has a 1,000 ft error ... >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> You are confusing precise, modern, electronic AADs with older, less accurate, mechanical FXCs. FXC Corporation recommends a 1500 foot margin of error between main pull altitude and AAD activation altitude. Old-school skydivers used to complain about FXCs "mis-firing" below 2500' (assuming they were set to fire at 1,000'). Most of the whiners were still in freefall or line stretch below 2,000'. No sympathy for FXC scarers. On the other hand, modern, electronic AADs are far more precise. For example, the first three women to scare Cypres at Elsinore all grudgingly admitted that they freefell below 1,000'. No arguments, no excuses, no whining. In conclusion, you are probably telling students the right message for the wrong reason. Students should leave a large margin of error because they are notoriously slow at reading altitmeters and reacting (i.e. pulling). Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Liemberg 0 #10 May 4, 2005 Quotea couple of static-line schools that connect all static-lines before take-off and their bail-out drills include tossing students out and trusting static-lines to deploy mains. Why not - if you are using direct bag deployment you have a trustworthy system resulting in survivable landings within 300ft underneath the airplane, almost 100% of the time...and even if you would have a double deployment with an FXC, I'm willing to bet that the thing fires at the opening shock of the main... Besides, this whole 'bail-out' decision altitude etcetera often asumes that the engine stops and the pilot is in control. If the tail is gone or it gets awfully hot in the cabin and the pilot is rushing for the door with his bail-out rig, I would reconsider my 'staying with the plane' plans... We DO stress with our students that they should 'hurry up and WAIT' - the pilot is in command so we better help him to stay in control by not stampeding towards the door... At my own place I can picture situations where I would bail out at 1000ft and others where I would remain seated above 3000ft. How come? They want us to climb over the sea and though we stay close to land usually - indeed with engine failure in the back of our minds, with strong uppers from the south I'm not gonna trade a plane for a parachute when we are aiming for the beach without an engine... "Whoever in discussion adduces authority uses not intellect but memory." - Leonardo da Vinci A thousand words... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
GravityGirl 0 #11 May 4, 2005 QuoteAt my DZ we were told anything at 1500 ft and below you go straight for your reserve, above 1500ft you can use your main. For students? ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Peace and Blue Skies! Bonnie ==>Gravity Gear! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
napaguy99 0 #12 May 5, 2005 Quote I'm inclined to have the student use the reserve below 4,000, giving them 1,000 to get it open and 500 ft under canopy before they make their decision to chop. Please clarify. The way I see it, you are telling a student to bail out on his reserve below 4000, then analyzing the situation and deciding whether or not to chop is reserve?? Surely you must mean main. "Let the misinterpretation and attacks begin." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Shark 0 #13 May 5, 2005 Bergen, What DZ do you instruct at? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Bergen 0 #14 May 5, 2005 If the student uses his/her main at 4,000 and pulls right away, you would expect him to be under canopy by 3,000 and have 500 ft to do a control check before making a decision as to whether or not to chop the main. I could see the student using the main when bailing out at 3,000, But any lower, and you must have a perfect deployment sequence before you risk scaring the Cypres at 1,000. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Bergen 0 #15 May 5, 2005 QuoteBergen, What DZ do you instruct at? Does it matter? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Shark 0 #16 May 5, 2005 QuoteQuoteBergen, What DZ do you instruct at? Does it matter? Yes. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Bergen 0 #17 May 5, 2005 QuoteQuoteQuoteBergen, What DZ do you instruct at? Does it matter? Yes. Tell me why it matters Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
voodew1 0 #18 May 5, 2005 QuoteIf the student uses his/her main at 4,000 and pulls right away, you would expect him to be under canopy by 3,000 and have 500 ft to do a control check before making a decision as to whether or not to chop the main. I could see the student using the main when bailing out at 3,000, But any lower, and you must have a perfect deployment sequence before you risk scaring the Cypres at 1,000. QuoteTell me why it matters Because it is bad information Student rigs with cypres are used all the time as rental rigs and fallin at terminal opening at 3000' you still will not even get close to cypres fire unless there is a mal. First 1000' out of a plane is at least 10 seconds with forward throw. I teach do what I say if there is a bail needed and they are taught procedures for main and reserve bail outs. Anything below 2000' will be reserve for students ----- how low is too low --depends on if the pilot is getting out also --- The pimp hand is powdered up ... say something stupid Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Shark 0 #19 May 6, 2005 QuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteBergen, What DZ do you instruct at? Does it matter? Yes. Tell me why it matters If you haven't already figured it out you are probably not a qualified AFF-I. You give advice contrary to others' of whom have been at this a lot longer than you and I. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
napaguy99 0 #20 May 6, 2005 I'm still confused. Please just tell me you're not trying to convince your students to chop their reserve. If so, I'd like to know what kind of system you are using. "Let the misinterpretation and attacks begin." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Bergen 0 #21 May 6, 2005 QuoteI'm still confused. Please just tell me you're not trying to convince your students to chop their reserve. If so, I'd like to know what kind of system you are using. I'm defenitely not teaching a student to chop a reserve. I reread the post you are referring to and can see where I wasn't clear. My concern is that if a student bails out at 2,000 on a main, and the deployment doesn't go perfectly, there is a risk of a Cypres fire. The policy at the DZ is to use the reserve below 2,000 and the main above 2,000. That's what I teach. But it sounds a little low to me, so I started this thread to find out what other DZ's use. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AFFI 0 #22 May 13, 2005 Quotethen they sit in the plane with their feet on the step, lock their thumbs through their reserve handle, and as they fall out they *** What if they panic and deploy the reserve into the plane?Mykel AFF-I10 Skydiving Priorities: 1) Open Canopy. 2) Land Safely. 3) Don’t hurt anyone. 4) Repeat… Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AFFI 0 #23 May 13, 2005 What we teach our studdents: Below 1500 Ride Plane Down in crash position. Above 1500 Bail on Reserve 1. Reserve canopy inflates faster and more reliable that main. 2. You are below you hard deck of 2500. 3. Exit the airplane looking at your reserve handle, hands free, as soon as you clear the plane deploy your reserve (minimize chance of reserve comming out in plane). Above 2500 Bail on Main 1. If you bail at 2500' and you have line twists do you tinnk you have time to correct the problem? Either you have a good parachute overhead right away or initate emergency procedures for a partial malfunction promptly. You will not have time to fix a problem this low to the ground. 2. If you have an emergency exit at a higher altitude you may have time to deal with a fixable partial, remain altitude aware and use the hard deck to establish your proprities. Right wrong or indifferent, that is how our DZO has us teach emergency exits...Mykel AFF-I10 Skydiving Priorities: 1) Open Canopy. 2) Land Safely. 3) Don’t hurt anyone. 4) Repeat… Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sundevil777 94 #24 May 14, 2005 QuoteWhat if they panic and deploy the reserve into the plane? As long as the freebag stays put, then it is like a static line jump, with the bag and bridal trailing.People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mark135 0 #25 May 17, 2005 QuoteAs long as the freebag stays put, then it is like a static line jump, with the bag and bridal trailing. Trailing right over the tail._______________ "It seemed like a good idea at the time" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
