slotperfect 7 #1 October 16, 2004 A spinoff from this thread regarding Perris' new 30-day grounding policy for jumpers that have an "illegitimate" CYPRES fire. This prompted a side conversation via PM with another Dotcommer and this question: If a Tandem Instructor has an "illegitimate" CYPRES fire, due to lack of altitude awareness or failure to follow correct procedures - emergency or otherwise, what should the consequences be? At what level should they be dealt with - DZ S&TA, USPA, Tandem Rig Manufacturer? Please keep all of the responses objective and free of emotion so we can enjoy healthy discussion on this issue. Thanks!Arrive Safely John Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
egons 0 #2 October 16, 2004 I cannot speak for any other Tandem Manufacture, but RWS certainly do have an incident form which is and has always been in use. Here is the link to our Incident Report from the RWS website. http://www.relativeworkshop.com/pdf_files/05504.pdf Cheers Egon Edited by slotperfect to make the link clicky! "Start doing what's necessary, then what's possible, and suddenly you're doing the impossible!" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
slotperfect 7 #3 October 16, 2004 I totally agree with encouraging the reporting of all incidents, especially tandem incidents, to the proper organization (we all learn from the outcome). I just want to clarify that this conversation stemmed from participating in another thread, referenced in my original post - not a specific incident. Cheers,Arrive Safely John Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tkhayes 126 #4 October 17, 2004 I grounded myself for a month, did a bunch of remedial training for a tandem cypres fire. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BIGUN 1,053 #5 October 17, 2004 IMO opinion, the S&TA and DZO should first investigate the cause. 1) If the Cypres fire was done during the sequence of performing all emergency procedures, then an after-action report should be done for discussion among all TI's on the DZ for future prevention along with the requisite Tandem Manufacturer Incident Report. 2) If the cause was altitude awareness and the TI failed to pull the handles, I think there should be a grounding period, remedial training and a sign-off by a Tandem I/E prior to that TI being allowed to handle students again.Nobody has time to listen; because they're desperately chasing the need of being heard. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhreeZone 15 #6 October 17, 2004 Kinda a spin off of this, would you suggest the same actions if it occured on a sport rig with a TI?Yesterday is history And tomorrow is a mystery Parachutemanuals.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
riggerrob 558 #7 October 17, 2004 ... definitely requires soul-searching, a review and a re-currency jump with a Tandem Examiner. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
obelixtim 100 #8 October 17, 2004 If the TM lost altitude awareness, his rating should be pulled.....permanently....My computer beat me at chess, It was no match for me at kickboxing.... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skydiverton 0 #9 October 18, 2004 Tandem cypres activation because of altitude awareness or incorrect handle sequence: No tandemjumping (loss of licence!) untill re-examination. In this case it is up to the TM to find an examinor to do evaluation jumps with. I'm sure you need a very good story to convince an examinor. his rating should be pulled.....permanently Also a good solution! ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Using your droque to gain stability is a bad habit, Especially when you are jumping a sport rig Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 7 #10 October 18, 2004 Quote If the TM lost altitude awareness, his rating should be pulled.....permanently.... I agree.... Whats your take on if it happens to a solo jumper?"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
obelixtim 100 #11 October 18, 2004 A TM should be better than that, its way more serious because he's responsible for another persons life, and has been specifically trained and examined so as to not be in that position....there is NO excuse, and to my mind no second chance for him to do it again.....because he is made fully aware of his responsibilities when he goes thru his training.... Its exactly the same if a rigger leaves a temporary pin in a reserve...(I've found one...a certain total on the reserve).....bye bye riggers rating... For a solo jumper, on my DZ, he will get to reacquaint himself with a set of student equipment on the end of a static line, at 3000ft if he's a student, 2000 ft if he is an experienced jumper.....he will do one or more jumps like that, depending on his attitude...... If the jumper objects to that regime, he has another option involving sex and travel, but he will never jump at my DZ again till he's done his SL jumps, no matter how long it takes.... Low dumping thru loss of altitude awareness at my DZ is very rare....everyone remembers the last Static Liner, and they are talked about for many years, the culprits are never allowed to forget it by their mates...... I don't believe grounding is effective at all....it is always turned into a personal thing by the person who refuses to accept they've done wrong. Very few jumpers will accept a grounding as justified....so they will not regard it as a learning experience.... You can approach disciplinary proceedings in a positive way sometimes.....because everyone fucks up at least once in their skydiving career..... Thats the way I deal with it, and most people regard it as fair.......My computer beat me at chess, It was no match for me at kickboxing.... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 7 #12 October 18, 2004 I like your approach.... I love this line: Quotehe has another option involving sex and travel"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mr2mk1g 10 #13 October 19, 2004 I look forward to the day when the cry of "back on the rope" is as well understood as the cry of "beer" at DZ's. It's becoming more and more common at the DZ's I frequent to hear the cry or even chant of "back on the rope" whenever someone does something stupid. I've yet to see it carried out though... but I wholeheartedly agree with the idea. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
obelixtim 100 #14 October 19, 2004 Did it to a hotshot 4 way team one time who smoked it down doing points.....opened at about a grand...... It actually turned into a fun load as I dispatched them at 2 grand, lots of banter and laughter in the plane, and exaggerated "student" type shenanigans..... However the point was well made and well remembered by everyone at the DZ, and those guys appreciated the fact that they didn't get grounded....however they then became great advocates for altitude awareness, and became good examples for everyone else... What could have turned into a nasty shit fight with lots of bad feeling turned into a positive learning experience for everyone. Like I said there is no point in discipline if a lesson isn't learned and it can be done in a positive way.... I've never seen a grounding achieve the same effect.....ever....My computer beat me at chess, It was no match for me at kickboxing.... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 7 #15 October 19, 2004 Like I said I like the approach...But what if it is at a large DZ that does not do SL? Gonna make them do a tandem?"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mr2mk1g 10 #16 October 19, 2004 How about you make them sign up to be a pax for a trainee tandem master. They're grounded till they do the jump. If there's no one training they're just going to have to pursuade one of the qualified TM's to do the jump with them... thus the length of time they're grounded is directly linked to how good an attitude they have about it - good attitude, helpful TM's... bad attitude... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 7 #17 October 19, 2004 QuoteHow about you make them sign up to be a pax for a trainee tandem master. They're grounded till they do the jump. Thats not a good idea since it is increasing the risk many times over. A Tandem is not a normal skydive and it is putting one extra person in harms way...And for what? To teach a lesson? QuoteIf there's no one training they're just going to have to pursuade one of the qualified TM's to do the jump with them... thus the length of time they're grounded is directly linked to how good an attitude they have about it - good attitude, helpful TM's... bad attitude... Not bad, but I still don't see a problem with just grounding them."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mr2mk1g 10 #18 October 19, 2004 QuoteI still don't see a problem with just grounding them. Nor do I, just thinking outside the box. As for putting someone in harms way on a tandem... is that not the system in the states? Over here before someone can get their TM ticket they attend the appropriate courses etc and are then required to do X many (I think 10 or so - not sure myself) tandems with a licensed jumper as the pax before they're let loose on real customers. That was the situation I was referring to - having them 'volunteer' to be one of these licensed passengers. If it's not how the system works in the states though then it's not relevant. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
obelixtim 100 #19 October 19, 2004 I'm sure that a SL can be found somewhere on most DZ's. It would take me about 5 minutes to set up any rig (sport or student) so it can be Static lined quite safely......all you need is a breaktie, and some elastic bungy to use as a closing loop, a carabiner and strong point in the plane..... Thats what I did with the 4 way team I put out....all jumped their own rigs.... Most riggers will have this sort of stuff amongst all the junk they collect..... Don't agree at all with the tandem pax option.... A better option would be to make them do a solo hop'n'pop from the same altitudes......3 grand and 2 grand.....its quite safe to do a sub terminal from that altitude.......but it does make their eyes bug out a bit.....seeing what the ground looks like from that altitude......message beginning to sink in...... If they bitch about it being too low to get out safely, I point out that the reason they are there is because they didn't seem to have a problem with screaming thru that height at terminal just now....... They usually go fairly quiet about then.....message received loud and clear.....My computer beat me at chess, It was no match for me at kickboxing.... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
scooterskydives 0 #20 October 19, 2004 Quote If the TM lost altitude awareness, his rating should be pulled.....permanently.... I have to agree with the tandem master should loose there rating if they have a tandem cypress fire and they were conscious.If God wanted man to stay on the ground. He would of put roots on them instead of feet. loving life GO-N-UP Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 7 #21 October 19, 2004 QuoteAs for putting someone in harms way on a tandem... is that not the system in the states? Yes to get a tandem rating you have to ride front, and you have to have a person with at least 100 jumps ride front on several jumps. My issue is not with that but MAKING someone do it... It is not a regular skydive and it puts them at a higher risk of injury....that is my issue."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 7 #22 October 19, 2004 QuoteIt would take me about 5 minutes to set up any rig (sport or student) so it can be Static lined quite safely......all you need is a breaktie, and some elastic bungy to use as a closing loop, a carabiner and strong point in the plane..... That sounds interesting.....I would like to see that set up. I would however be afraid that someone (like me) could try to do that and really screw up the system making a real problem. QuoteA better option would be to make them do a solo hop'n'pop from the same altitudes......3 grand and 2 grand.....its quite safe to do a sub terminal from that altitude.......but it does make their eyes bug out a bit.....seeing what the ground looks like from that altitude......message beginning to sink in...... If they bitch about it being too low to get out safely, I point out that the reason they are there is because they didn't seem to have a problem with screaming thru that height at terminal just now....... They usually go fairly quiet about then.....message received loud and clear..... Hell I like low hop n pops....so that would not work with me...However, it would work with the new bunch of otter babies out there. I think EVERYONE should do a few hop n pops from the min pull altitude for the license they have....Just for practice for emergency exits."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
obelixtim 100 #23 October 19, 2004 Its easy to set up a rig for a SL jump, any rigger worth his salt should easily be able to explain it.....ask one who's been around for a while... As for you enjoying hop "n" pops..... Hmmmm.......you'll just have to take my last option.....I'd just have to give you the bash!!!........My computer beat me at chess, It was no match for me at kickboxing.... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
diablopilot 2 #24 October 19, 2004 QuoteI think EVERYONE should do a few hop n pops from the min pull altitude for the license they have.... I like it.---------------------------------------------- You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
YahooLV 0 #25 October 20, 2004 Well, at my DZ, if an instructor has an illegitimate CYPRES fire......they go home with no job. No more jumps, no more tandems. BYE BYE!http://www.curtisglennphotography.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
