Coach Jumps??

[Kelly 0]

jimbo,
Monkey Claw is opening up a school out at Chicagoland I believe. i know its a dz in chicago, and it isnt skydive chicago. In any case, its the one Damo was entertaining the idea of going to work @ next (now this) season. Brandon is a friend of thiers who helps occasionally, but is now stepping up to a full time Monkey Claw Coach.

http://kel197.tripod.com/skydivefriendsTRIPOD/html Updated!!

[AndyMan 7]

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Who of what? From http://www.monkeyclaw.com/who.html

From: http://www.monkeyclaw.com/news.html

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We are officially opening a Freefly School campus at Chicagoland Skydiving in Hinkley, Illinois! That's right! If you're an aspiring freeflyer and looking at getting coaching to inrease your skills, come out to our midwest campus to work with Brandon Park, the newest member of the team!

[Jimbo 0]

Sweet! I had heard about this a while back, but nothing ever seemed to happen with it. Cool.

[DanG 1]

Hey, if you don't want to pay for coach jumps, you can always go jump at some slack-ass DZ that doesn't support the ISP and will give you your A license with (as Bill says) the bare minumum skills to survive.
Can you tell I'm a coach?
- Dan G

[Aviatrr 0]

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Hey, if you don't want to pay for coach jumps, you can always go jump at some slack-ass DZ that doesn't support the ISP and will give you your A license with (as Bill says) the bare minumum skills to survive.

Or you could find one of the few remaining DZ's where people with more experience will jump with you, teach you, and even pay their own slot! But, then again, if they don't support the ISP, they must be a "slack-ass" DZ, right? I guess, by default, every DZ that supportz the ISP is an awesome place, eh?

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Can you tell I'm a coach?

Can you tell how impressed I am?
Mike

[Jimbo 0]

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Can you tell I'm a coach?

Having the coaches rating does not make you (or anyone else) a great coach. A true 'coach', especially one who's committed to passing along the most basic skills to fresh off AFF students, will posess the ability to motivate, to teach, to make them _WANT_ to learn more. After a jump or two with a real coach a student will come down feeling that he's actually learned something, that he's been given the foundation of something greater. The folks who do this are, IMO, the real coaches and they don't need a rating from the USPA to prove it. Anybody with a hundred skydives and the time and expense to get the coaches rating can be a USPA 'coach' and sign off students for their ISP requirements. That rating means nothing.
BTW Dan, this isn't directed towards you or any specific 'coach' out there, just a general obversation.
-
Jim

[PhreeZone 15]

This is what I'm talking about, as soon as people get a coach rating they seem to think that if you don't have it you are not worthy of jumping with anyone learning. There are many more "Slack-ass" DZ's with highly qualified jumpers then there are not. Many are Cesnna DZ's that just don't have enough people interested in getting "rated" since they are not going to charge anything anyways. Why should they shell out 350-800 just for the privlage to do what they have been doing for ages anyways?
I want to touch the sky, I want to fly so high ~ Sonique

[skymedic 0]

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Hey, if you don't want to pay for coach jumps, you can always go jump at some slack-ass DZ that doesn't support the ISP and will give you your A license with (as Bill says) the bare minumum skills to survive.

I totaly agree with my friend Mike on this one....I personaly prefer a DZ where everyone isn't motivated by money...they think...Oh I got a rating...NOW SHOW ME THE MONEY....Not very impressive in my opinion...

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Can you tell I'm a coach?

Bow down to him....we are not worthy to be in His presence...
marc
"...a mind stretched with new idea's will never regain its shape"

[markbaur 0]

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doesn't it require you to have a coach for the Alic sign off?

Not really. First, the ISP is a recommendation, not a requirement. How you get the skills to qualify for your A is up to you. And second, the BSR requiring a USPA Coach for categories G and H can be waived by your local I/E or S&TA.
BTW, it takes an Instructor, not a coach, to sign items on A Card.
It's still cheaper to pay a coach and learn a skill right in a few jumps, than it is to make many jumps to figure out the same stuff.
Mark

[Shark 0]

Uh, I think you guys are missing the point... If you are not yet licensed and are progressing towards your a license, you need to complete the TLOs in Cat G/H. This requires jumping with a rated coach or instructor. I guess it is possible to get signed off in these catagories by completing the objectives "around" the "system" and still jump with a rated instructor. In SoCal it is unprobable since the big 3 follow the ISP.
After one has earned the A license, your options are wide open. Pay for coaching by Sky U or a similar program at your dz, or, like my dz, enter into a FREE 2-way RW skills camp every weekend. Some even offer free 4 way camps monthly.
So if you want to debate, here's another topic: Should I pay for a re-currency dive and/or re-training?

[Ducky 0]

SheeesH!! I asked a simple question and started a war! well not really....
To bring the topic up to date, I did my first 3 solos today. No coaches and no pressure and I think it was the best way. I was immediately approached by 2 different AFF instructors I had jumped with upon arrival. They both took time to remind me of things and answer questions. One offered to radio me on my first jump cuz I was worried about my landing. The winds were light but changing alot.
I had amazingly fun jumps and managed to get a few things signed off. I think one of the guys is gonna jump with me next weekend if the student flow is low. He said he would be glad to help me all he can. Now that's what I like.
And yes I will jump with a coach in the very near future as I start to concentrate more on RW skills...
Kwal

[SkymonkeyONE 3]

I wish I had seen this thread earlier than I did. I absolutely agree with Bill Von Novak on this one. In general, the sport has gotten WAY too competitive. Skydiving is a HOBBY for the great majority of people. While it's definitely true that there has always been a high percentage of "type A" personalities in the sport, it seems that everyone nowadays thinks they must be a competitor. I see no problem with people wanting to get as good as they can in as fast a time possible; I just think they today's jumpers are getting fleeced by the establishment.
This, of course, has to do with the way the "sport" has progressed. 21 years ago when I started skydiving there were VERY few full time dropzones and as such, very few people trying to make a living off the sport. Most people worked a 40 hour week somewhere and then went out to the DZ on the weekend to blow off steam and hang out with like-minded individuals. It didn't matter what you did during the week; on the weekend you were all just skydivers. Just like Bill said: you brought the younger jumpers along and didn't ask a goddamn cent in return most of the time. You did this because you wanted the people to stay around and be a part of the family.
Nowadays, sadly, the caste system has reared it's ugly head (at least on big DZ's) like I would have never imagined. There is now an entire stata of "full-timers" who try and make their living on the DZ. It amazes me what some people get paid to do nowadays: packers, loaders, manifestors, massage, fuelers, etc, etc, etc, and now COACHES. Where I come from, the older guys trained the younger guys and everyone on the DZ took turns doing the nug work. "Hey boy! Go fill up that damn airplane!" Hey Boy, take this kid up on his 30 second delay". My answer: "no problem."
I really do like turbine aircraft, and I really do like the full-service bar and restaurant we have at my DZ, but I fucking HATE it when I see students and intermediates getting fleeced. As I have previously stated in many other threads: feel free to come to Raeford and let me show you how my crowd does business. I don't want your money; I just want people to hang out with me and my friends. Every single person I jump with got his ratings at their first available opportunity so that they could give back to the sport. We thumb our noses at the vendors. THAT is what this sport is all about.
If your current boutique DZ is raping you, get the hell away from there and find you a small cessna DZ to hang out at until you get your skills they need to be. Hell, you might end up actually having a good time! Shit, many of them still operate on a sort of barter system; I know my Dad's does.
Pardon my ramble, but it seemed like it needed to be said again.
My webpage HERE

[freeflir29 0]

"Pardon my ramble, but it seemed like it needed to be said again."
No doubt Chuck! That's exactly why I'm getting off my ass and getting my coach rating. (and a C lic...LOL) I have been feeling guilty lately cause I'm always getting on the next cool Free Fly jump with my friends instead of taking up newbies and teaching like I know I would be if I was at Raeford.
"I got some beers....Let's Drink em!!!"
Clay

[DanG 1]

I knew I would get slammed for my post as soon as I sent it, but you guys are so full of shit your eyes are brown.
Yes, I agree that in a perfect world the people who have spent the time and money to get various ratings and improve their skills would gladly donate all of their remaining time and money to teach new people how to skydive. Unfortunately, it doesn't work that way. Usually, people get cleared off AFF and then spend the next 100 jumps flailing around the sky, jumping with their buddy who also has just graduated. They spend, say, $1800 learning the very basic skills that they could have learned from a qualified coach for much less. Every now and then, some asshole like the ones slamming me decides to spend 20 minutes with a newbie and maybe even jump with them. The more experienced guy feels like he is 'giving back to the sport' and the new kid thinks he learned something.
If you don't like having paid coaches in the world, then don't use them. If people really spent all their time teaching new kids how to jump, then the free market would prevent coaches from existing.
If you want to learn how to fly your body, then you can do it two ways: you can make a bunch of jumps with people who have limited teaching experience and limited understanding of the mechanics of skydiving, or you can make a few jumps with someone who has experience with both. Your choice.
By the way, my comment "can you tell I'm a coach" was not meant to say that I think I am better than anyone else. It was meant to convey that not everyone agrees with Bill Novak, and there are differing perspectives on this issue.
- Dan G

[Shark 0]

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I just want people to hang out with me and my friends. Every single person I jump with got his ratings at their first available opportunity so that they could give back to the sport.

Chuck,
Great quote.... The gift that keeps on giving. Guess I also forgot to mention that I had the benefit of "free" coaching as well.
M

[AndyMan 7]

I think my biggest problem with this thread is the idea that it's either or.
Nobody could possibly blame a student for wanting to excel at a sport they'd love. Nobody could possibly blame that student for being willing to pay for someone elses slot, if that other person's a good coach.
The problem that I had with coaching was the only alternative for the young jumper. When I showed up at an unnamed DropZone in Ohio, my biggest frustration was showing up at a new DZ and not being able to find someone to jump with (that actually had skill) without paying for it. Ultimately I saw that this DZ had a coach program that was top notch. I figured that the instruction was so good that It'd be cheaper to pay someone then figure it out with other novices. I believe this, even in hindsight. Still, my one complaint of this DZ was the dificulty in finding good people to jump with, without paying their slot.
Then I moved to Chicago, someone recomended Chicagoland. (Hinckley) Hinckley had a good freefly coach program, and all of the fun jumpers are more then willing to do jumps with the novices. Then I went to Skydive Chicago, where they take their new students, put points them towards "team funnel" - a loosely organized group of mentors who organize and coach for free. I presume SDC has people I could pay if I wanted to...
I like this the best. I like doing a few jumps with Team Funnel when I'm at SDC. I like doing two ways at Hinckley when I'm there. I also will be hooking up with Brandon of MonkeyClaw when he shows up.
_Am

[Aviatrr 0]

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If you don't like having paid coaches in the world, then don't use them. If people really spent all their time teaching new kids how to jump, then the free market would prevent coaches from existing.

Most people don't want to spend the time and money to get a Coach rating just to be "allowed" to continue doing what they've been doing for years.....teaching new jumpers..
Mike

[AggieDave 6]

Personally, I think coached jumps are great. Especially if you can afford them. If some of the new jumpers are like me, they probably make it out to the DZ maybe 2-3 times a month and only make 3-4 jumps each time they go out due to money. They would also be more inclined to just go out and have fun with more jumps then to pay a coach and only get 1 or 2 jumps. With that in mind, if there is a skill that I know that I can teach someone, I am more then happy to teach them. At this point in my skydiving career I can't teach much to a newby in the air (I have about 100 jumps), but I can sure as hell help teach them to pack or explain something to them if they have questions or just give them someone to go make a fun jump with. Will we have a perfect exit and burn 1,000 points before we get off the hill? No, probably not. Can I help show someone the spirit of the sport that was shown to me? Yes. It would seem to me that the bigger DZs sometimes loose track of the spirit of the sport with the new guys. I know because I was/am there. I had the privalage of starting and going through my student progression at a small DZ. Although that meant my first 30 jumps or so were out of a 182 and I didn't get up to 13k, that did mean that there were some really friendly people who would go out of their way to make sure that I was included in stuff. The old-timers (sorry guys, most of yall are old timers since I'm 21 ) would take me up on 2, 3 and 4-ways. We might funnel the exit, we might only get one or two points, but they were showing me the commradary and the fun of the sport.
The point of this rambling post is that even though coaching jumps are important to help build skills quickly, there is a lot to be said for jumpers willing to help out the newbies merely for the love of the sport. Too often newbies get lost between the clich's at the DZ and just wonder off never to been seen again, never realizing the fun their missing out of.
Is it so hard for you (you in general, not specifically anyone in this case) as an experienced skydiver to take a jump or two a weekend and spend it with a newbie?
Chuck, some day I definately need to make it out to your DZ, it sounds like a fun place with a good group of people. Success is how high you bounce when you hit bottom.-General George Patton-

[skymedic 0]

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Then I moved to Chicago, someone recomended Chicagoland. (Hinckley) Hinckley had a good freefly coach program, and all of the fun jumpers are more then willing to do jumps with the novices. Then I went to Skydive Chicago, where they take their new students, put points them towards "team funnel" - a loosely organized group of mentors who organize and coach for free. I presume SDC has people I could pay if I wanted to...
I like this the best. I like doing a few jumps with Team Funnel when I'm at SDC. I like doing two ways at Hinckley when I'm there. I also will be hooking up with Brandon of MonkeyClaw when he shows up.

Well I am glad I will have some good things to look forward too in Chicago.....only two and a half weeks left.....ahhhhhh
marc
"...a mind stretched with new idea's will never regain its shape"

[DanG 1]

I hasten to add that all of the coaches at my DZ (including myself) spend much more time jumping for free with new people than just about everyone else. We all love to teach new people how to skydive, and no one is getting rich off of coaching fees.
However, if I am going to spend a hour on the ground with someone going through isometric and kinesthetic drills, jump with them, then spend another half hour debriefing and preparing for the next dive, I expect to get paid. If you have the time and expertice to do that for free, please go for it.
- Dan G

[SkymonkeyONE 3]

Believe me when I say that I have both the time and expertise to do anything that needs doing. I have had an Instructor rating for nearly 15 years and have taught more students than I could possibly count. I didn't get my ratings to make money, but do not turn the money down when there is nothing else that the vendor or DZ can trade me for my time. I would MUCH rather get a few jump tickets and a case of beer for teaching an FJC than the pittance that most DZ's pay nowadays.
As far as "coaching" goes, I am referring to those jumps taught after a student gets off student status. The only thing that I, or any other instructor at the club I teach at gets is their load payed for. Do you REALLY think that those people are getting second-rate instruction just because we don't "care" enough to charge them? Man, do you have a lot to learn. Bill Von Novak had a good reply, as did Ron Schott, in another post I read about the same type of thing on rec.skydiving. Ron wrote about having some yuppified cocksucker in a BMW who jumped at the same DZ as him in Florida. The dude REALLY thought he was the cats ass and told Ron flattly that he was absolutely not in the sport to make friends and help others out; that was passe. He was in it for the glory and what money he could get out of it. The dude clearly needed his head stuck in a toilet. I am the antithesis of that. I am ONLY in it for the fun and the friendship of like-minded skymonkeys. I am a second generation skydiver and I do things as my dad still does.
Now, just in case the derogotory remark you stated earlier, "you assholes, blah, blah", was aimed at me, I recommend you check the attitude.
Chuck
D-12501
My webpage HERE

[billvon 2,402]

>However, if I am going to spend a hour on the ground with someone going through isometric and kinesthetic drills,
>jump with them, then spend another half hour debriefing and preparing for the next dive, I expect to get paid.
>If you have the time and expertice to do that for free, please go for it.
Many of us do. And I notice what goes around comes around. I work at Quincy every year for free - I don't get paid for organizing low-timers, and while I don't spend an hour on every jump on preparation, I spend at least two hours a day going over safety stuff, and when I have extra time, I go over skills. It seems to work out - ask Val (Vallerina, she posts here) if her skills improved in our tent in Quincy.
And while I don't get paid, I do get a lot out of it. My slot is covered, because the airplane owners want more people to jump, and I help make that happen. They also want to see the number of injuries cut down, which is perhaps our most important job at Tent 1. I get to know some very cool people, and since I'm working with them, they know my level of skill - a good thing for my own fun jumping. Most importantly, I get to see people like Valerie and Jim and Schlomo (I'm sure I spelled his name wrong) and Storm get better.
Sure, I could get paid to coach and organize, charge slot plus ten to help someone fill out their A-lic card. But then I'd just be their employee, and they'd get miffed if I didn't take the dive seriously, or if they didn't get the signoff on one jump. I couldn't bug them for beer later. Most of all, I couldn't tell them with any conviction that it will someday be _their_ turn to make coaching jumps for free with other newbies. (Val, you're not off the hook until you work with us in Tent 1!)
I guess that's the "karma" way of looking at it, which is how I see a lot of things in skydiving. What goes around comes around. But to look at it from a purely selfish point of view, I helped out people when they were students and new jumpers, and some of them are now AFF-I's, world class 4-way jumpers, skysurfers, hollywood stuntpeople and organizers. And they owe me.
-bill von

[DanG 1]

Actually, the asshole comment was not aimed at you at all. I completely respect your position, and I'm sure your skills (as is your knowledge) is exceptional.
Before USPA came out with the ISP, many people were of the opinion that the AFF/SL progression was not turning out students with the necessary skills to survive in our sport.Canopy instruction was especially lacking, and there was also the opinion that some basic safety skills like swooping and docking, and fall rate control were not up to par (my dropzone was one of the original test dropzones for the ISP, and we saw every incarnation as it was developed). Unpaid and informal coaching (like most people here seem to like) was not doing the job.
So now we have the ISP and coaches. Coaches exist (in my opinion) because the majority of AFF-I's (unlike those at your DZ) expect to get paid handsomly for their time. Students simply can't afford to pay an AFF-I or AFF-JM to jump with them all the time. They can, however, receive quality instruction from coaches for much less money.
I do believe that the bar is too low right now for coaches (which seems to be another complaint, that any 100 jump wonder can get a coach rating), I think potential coaches should have to show more than the very basic skills they show now, but that really is another discussion.
Chuck, if you would like to discuss this further offline, I'd be more than happy too. Clearly I have been beaten down by everyone on this forum for my views. I still believe that both paid coaching and unpaid coaching have valuable places in skydiving. I'm sorry to have upset so many people with my comments, re-reading them I really did come off much harsher than I intended.
- Dan G

[SkymonkeyONE 3]

Don't sweat it Dan. You did hit the nail right on the head when you said that this was what was neccessary at YOUR dropzone. I understand your dropzone's philosophy completely; they are in it for the cash. That is entirely their prerogative, but what my main point was is that the up and coming jumpers out there who read these forums need to understand they have the option of seeking out those dropzones with different ideals. Sure, there are plenty of small one-Cessna dropzones that are just as bad, but in my experience those smaller dropzones seem to coddle their junior skymonkeys to a greater degree. I am very lucky in that I work and play at a three-turbine dropzone with all the goodies, but a distinctly small-dropzone "feel" and attitude. We have Instructors and tandem masters coming out our ass, but very few work for the contracted "civilian" training vendor. I give a rats ass whether that vendor makes a penny, so I (and my fellow Instructors) constantly hook whoever needs assistance up when we have the time (which is usually).
Nobody should have to sweat having to come up with $50 for a fucking packing class. Same goes for the simple pre- A licence jumps a person needs to get his or her blocks checked. Cost of the coach's lift is all I can see a person charging for those jumps. That being said, I don't have any problem with a junior coach-rated guy taking those jumps. It makes him much better prepared for his "REAL" ratings. Only when a student has a nagging problem and starts wasting money on fruitless dives will I take the opportunity away from these up and coming trainers. It is then that I really make my "money". I get to not only un-fuck a problem student, I also get to help that young coach.
Hey, it's all good with me.
My webpage HERE

[Jimbo 0]

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We have Instructors and tandem masters coming out our ass, but very few work for the contracted "civilian" training vendor. I give a rats ass whether that vendor makes a penny, so I (and my fellow Instructors) constantly hook whoever needs assistance up when we have the time (which is usually).

I must get to Raeford sometime, must get to Raeford.
Anyhow - I thought I'd drop in here and point out that there's actually some very good discussion going on over in rec.skydiving on this very issue. It seems an intelligent discussion on wreck is rare these days, so I thought I'd point it out.
-
Jim