DB Cooper

[n467us 0]

The Tie:

My bet is that Cooper simply forgot the tie, because 37 years later we are no closer to uncovering any clues from it than we were in '71. If the cabin lights were out, he could easily have overlooked it when packing up and getting ready to bail out. I also feel this way because he left no other clues and was very careful to retrieve his notes.

[Sluggo_Monster 0]

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Sluggo,

I was reading over your web page, it's not 800 suspects, to be exact it's 1057

By the "5th Anniversary", or "to date?"

I'm honored that you're reading my web site.

I welcome ALL your comments (even the ones I think stink).

Sluggo

Web Page
Blog
NORJAK Forum

[snowmman 3]

This is way out there, but I'll throw it out while I'm musing about it.

I've grappled with various money plant theories by various possible people. Cooper or non-Cooper.

This is a Cooper post-hijack (some undefined time) money plant theory (at Tena Bar).

I've been looking at my GE pics, and you can see where I've put a stickpin at 2015 Guess, based on a guess of rough time of oscillations to bump like we've been discussing, but also because of the sharpish turn there. I'm thinking the pilots might have thought "finally he's gone, now we can just fly the damn plane"

What's interesting, is that it aligns with the money find location, along an imaginary E to W line.

Except the money find location is too far west.
And the wind wasn't blowing that way.

So you can go down the path of saying "Well maybe Cooper jumped later and landed in the river with a no-pull" and then we're back to money + water movement, and maybe lost money bag or whatever theories.

Or you could say Cooper at some point decided to do a money plant. He might have suspected the FBI would get the bump/jump point timeline correct. He wouldn't want to plant where he actually jumped, because maybe it would be unlikely for someone to find it, or the FBI might interview the area and actually find someone that remembered something. (edit) or because the DZ would actually imply then that he lived!

And it's got to be somewhere that's plausible that it wasn't found for a while, and has a backstory that maybe helps people think Cooper's dead. But has enough human traffic so that it could actually be found. It might take a couple years to be found. There could have been a couple of money plants in similar areas, and maybe only Tena Bar was found.

So you look at a map, decide where you actually jumped, then draw a line over to the river and hope they got the flight path kinda wrong. Do some money plants, cross your fingers, and go on with your life.

Which actually is a rational plan, because rational people like Agent H. and Scott apparently sat around at some point discussing "well maybe the flight path was actually here, or here" etc because of where the money was found. Even Tosaw emphatically said "he knows" because of the various data that aligned with that money find location.

[Sluggo_Monster 0]

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Sluggo,

If it were anything other than the money he would have stated it. No one goes through the effort Cooper did or any other high profile crime with a cause and not state it once they have the "mic." In Cooper's case the grudge gave him the moral clarity to go through with his plan. We all have that compass that guides our actions. Once we have justification for where the compass points then we as humans allow ourselves to go forward.

That's a good point. Especially when talking about political issues and martyrs. But, if we play Monopoly and I cause you to lose your money, I don’t need credit. Or, if I want to draw attention to an issue, not a cause, drawing attention to me will just get me arrested.

Oh yea…. Movie quotes….. This is paraphrased because I don’t have a copy of the movie. From Catch-22:

Yossarian:
You took Snowden’s parachute.

Milo:
Yes, but I left him a shares in the syndicate.

Yossarian:
That won’t do him any good, he’s dead.

Milo:
Then his parents will get them.

Yossarian:
That won’t do them any good, they’re rich.

Milo:
Then they’ll understand.



Think about it.

Sluggo

Web Page
Blog
NORJAK Forum

[snowmman 3]

"If it were anything other than the money he would have stated it."

uh. Maybe I'm the dumb one here. So money is always an implicit motivator, and doesn't need stating. All other motivators need stating.

Hm. okay.

Alternate theories:
-All motivators need stating when you get the mic: "I want a nice car, dammit and I want it now"
-No motivators need stating: "."
-Motivators sometimes get stated and sometimes not.
-Motivators get stated, but they're not the real motivators.

Humans can be random event generators. Not worth stressing about some things too much. Actually, that's what keeps human life beautiful. Random events are required for us all to keep life worth living.

[Orange1 0]

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, in fact Cooper's whole "costume" can be used to imply something about his employment.
(edit) or recently past employment, if he had been fired or laid off?

Don't think I agree. It's been posted here a number of times that his dress was very non-descript, very ordinary for the times, and that there is probably nothing to be gleaned from it - other than that he didn't want to stand out from the crowd.

Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.

[Ckret 0]

Sluggster, buddy!!!, this aint CSI or a movie, Cooper is real, with real human factors added in. The big problem here, has been and will continue to be is lack of experience interacting with human motives as they deal with criminal intent. It seems most on here, when commenting on Cooper the person, are relying on what they have experienced in the movies on TV or how they (given what they have read and seen on tv) would pull it off. Reality is always a let down, the dream is always better.

When one of my bank robbers gets on a lucky streak and racks up 10 or more robberies I am convinced he is doing in-depth planning. I analyze the robberies and even come up with profiles i think fit best. Every time we catch them i am disappointed to find they just winged it. The same level of thought goes into the crime as the others that got caught on robbery one.

Sluggo, and anyone else, what real life experience do you have in working with criminals? How they operate, what motivates them..... How much is what you see in the movies and on TV influencing your opinions on Cooper?

We have experts here in several fields of study and your doing great work, but I think you are stifling yourself by overlaying unrealistic perceptions of criminal behavior generated by mass media. This, in fact, has become a real problem in criminal trials. Juries have a very unreal expectations that now have to be addressed in opening statements. Maybe the same thing has happened here.

Only a look in the mirror can answer that (ok, i agree, thats a cheesy statement but there is something to it)

[Ckret 0]

snowmman,

Plain and simple Cooper wanted money and felt there was no other way (or no other way he was willing to go about) to get it. There is no indication at all that there was another motive, if there was he would have let us know about it.

[Mr.Nuke 0]

Let me preface this by saying I appreciate your efforts in bringing this case back to life, and the following my come across as more cynical or negative than I intend it to be.

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This is where you brilliant types leave me shaking my head as well as the rest of the theorist who want to put the Portland area as part of Coopers plan. If Cooper needed to land around Portland or Vancouver he would have directed the pilots to fly that direction.

I agree with you here to the point that I don't necessarily buy the Portland area as part of Cooper's plan. However, the second part of your statement sounds like what you "accuse" people of not having been involved in an investigation doing Thinking about how they would've done it or what they would've done in a given situation. I don't disagree with you assertion, but it seems to be almost what you are doing here.

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"If Cooper needed to land around Portland or Vancouver he would have directed the pilots to fly that direction."

If we use this logic, if Cooper wanted to only use one parachute (or one plus another as a money bag) then he would've only asked for one or two chutes, right?

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He would have given nothing away in regard to his escape by saying, "fly V23." This would assure the plane would have flown over Portland. If he cared at all where he was going to bail he would have dictated a flight path.

I will agree that he would've given away nothing in regard to the jump, but I think what Sluggo and other's with aviation experience and some without are trying to tell you is he indirectly did dictate a flight path.

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There was nothing to gain by withholding a flight path. Cooper had to have known the planes path could be tracked at all times, therefore, what would be the point in leaving such a critical detail so open ended.

Perhaps to keep everyone involved including the FBI guessing. If so 37 years later and still looking, I'd say he did a pretty good job. No matter what side you fall into on the experienced versus non experienced debate, I think there is a fairly clear picture that Cooper gave away as little information as possible.

The point in leaving the "critical detail" so open ended is that the vagueness has been one of the FBI's and others main points that Cooper didn't care where the plane went, and didn't know what he was doing. If Cooper would've said "Hey Captain Scott, I would like you to fly 15 degrees flaps, gear down, do not exceed 10,000 feet, and oh please fly V-23 to PDX," your opinion would've likely changed.

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I know Uncle Sluggo likes to think there is only one choice the pilots could take so there was no need to tell them. This, however, isn't true, there are several low level routes from Seatac as well as point to point. As I have said many times, just before they were cleared for V23 they were going to fly out to the coast and turn south.

If you at least accept the possibility that someone could've tried to loosely plan the jump, than why limit yourself to planning for only one route?

The coastal route (either v-204 or v-27) was unlikely to begin due to the range constraints associated with Cooper's demands. Had 305 taken the coastal route it would've been apparent to someone who was "watching" that the coastal route and not V-23 was being taken.

V-120 is too easterly, V-2 the same, V-4 leads to possible terrain issues. That leaves you with V-23.

As for point-to-point, Sluggo may need to correct on my on this, but I'm not sure how common "point to point" or direct to navigation was in the 1970's. And prior to the advent of GPS in aviation given the weather conditions it still would've involved some sort of Ground tracking be it VOR sites or some other means.

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Especially with the conditions of the night it makes no sense not to direct the flight path. If it were a clear night maybe you don't say (although it still does not make sense) because you could look out and determine if the crew took the route you wanted, if not correct them. But he would not be able to do that in this case.

Nor would Cooper need to direct said flight plan. You don't need to see the ground or even look out the window to tell where you are going in this case. If the plane had taken the coastal route their would be a significant right banking turn after takeoff.

[snowmman 3]

Ok, say I'll accept the "money-only-reason" Ckret has floated, as fact.

So what can I theorize about if that's fact.

Well, what about Cooper's past and future? If he dealt with money issues this way in '71 and survived the jump, he likely also ran into money issues in the future. Because a bad money manager will likely continue to be a bad money manager. (if dealing with money problems at this scale) ...How did he deal with future money issues? More crime?

Or how did it make it to age 45 without running into money issues? Or did he, and did crime to resolve it before? and somehow FBI just couldn't match him up to the Cooper case, even though he had a record?

Seems to me, if it was just about money, then we're talking about a guy that no-pulled or died pretty quickly afterwards somehow. (maybe someone offed him? or he had an unrelated accident/sickness/etc)

If we're talking about someone who survived, and continued to have a non-criminal life, it's hard to believe it was just about money.

Does that make any sense? I'm thinking Cooper was a one-off crime. Are you thinking it was one-off, because then he died? Are you thinking there are elements of this that show prior criminal activity? Are you thinking Cooper did more crime after this if he survived?

I'll buy the "only-about-money" theory, but you got to flesh it out a bit, because I can't picture why Cooper didn't get caught, with this theory.

Ckret: If your knowledge of typical criminal behavior is correct, you should be able to give some guesses/insight on the above questions? I mean you're so confident about this, you must have an opinion on the questions that the theory generates?

(edit) Oh if you're asking me what I would have done...I'd just tell them to fill up and head south. I'd jump when I saw some city lights. Wouldn't care what city. I'd keep it random, because FBI can't deal with random. I'd just keep it over land, cause I wouldn't want to drown.

I'd keep them thinking I could have jumped anywhere along whatever route they took. Worst case I jump right before they land at the destination.

I guess that's a bad random plan Ckret and you'd bust me in a jiffy because you'd know I didn't have a plan..i.e. I had no plan because the plan was an inobvious plan.

There's no obvious reason why any landing site would be better than another. Any city will do. Keeping it random is actually the only thing that helps the success probability.

Now you can argue criminals don't think that way. Okay.

[skyjack71 0]

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Ratczak was the flight engineer.

For my first post I hate to question the FBI agent, but are sure? Everything I've ever read or seen on the case has Captain Scott, First Officer Rataczak and flight engineer Anderson, with Rataczak being the PIC.

Thank You Mr. Nuke - since everything I have to say is questioned and Ckrets opinion as a FBI agent terminates written reports, I did not want to be the first one to CORRECT agent Ckret.

Just proves he makes mistakes just as he may be making one with his "opinion" of that print report.

Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber

[skyjack71 0]

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Sluggo,

If it were anything other than the money he would have stated it. No one goes through the effort Cooper did or any other high profile crime with a cause and not state it once they have the "mic." In Cooper's case the grudge gave him the moral clarity to go through with his plan. We all have that compass that guides our actions. Once we have justification for where the compass points then we as humans allow ourselves to go forward.

That's a good point. Especially when talking about political issues and martyrs. But, if we play Monopoly and I cause you to lose your money, I don’t need credit. Or, if I want to draw attention to an issue, not a cause, drawing attention to me will just get me arrested.

Sluggo

I have tried to state this same thing, but of course I do not have the word power to make myself understood. Thank You, Sluggo for stating the obvious which the "FBI" seems to miss.

Not everyone fits a profile - especially crimes that were commited almost 38 yrs ago - when this world was very different from the world that the current FBI deals with - if they want to win this battle they have to think "1971" and put themselves in 1971 and take into the thought process the politics of the time.

In 1971 everything was not about "money" - there were more important issues . Ckret what do you know about the history of the 60's and 70's? - stop and think.

Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber

[snowmman 3]

just specified a destination? (not enough data really unavailable on McNally)

According to the news articles, he supposedly preplanned the jump (DZ) with his buddy, using some kind of "calculator/tables" they found at his home later...i.e. time + predicted airspeed is what the FBI were saying.

They said he got fooled cause the plane circled an airport at one point, so his time calculation was off and he jumped early.

Did McNally know if there was one route or more? Dunno. It's probably in the FBI report.

McNally ended up jumping in a different place (Peru, Indiana) than he said he planned. The news articles say the plan was closer to his house. But he got home somehow (Wyandotte, Mich. 150 mi. away) And even though the first reports said he lost his pants, he had pants. (doubt he lost his pants).

Do we care how much knowledge McNally about flight routes? No. Heck his hijack went crazy when the crazy citizen (David Hanley) ran a car into his plane on the ground (Lambert Field, St. Louis). He had to switch planes, and as a result I think that's why he got hit with two hijack charges..two different planes.

So McNally had a plan evidently (supposedly him and his buddy worked on the plan for five months). But on execution, yeah, he had to wing it a bit.

Do we really care? All that matters is where the damn guy jumped, right? Who cares what his plan was?

(edit) Nice quote on why they selected their hijack airports:
[agent] Welch said they decided to hijack an airliner in St. Louis rather than at Detroit Metropolitan Airport because the Detroit airport was too close to their home area and because they felt security devices were less stringent at St. Louis airport....
..."The original plan .. called for McNally to jump from the plane near Monroe. Mich" Welch said. Monroe is about 40 miles south of the .. homes of the two.

Evidently McNally just called his buddy Petlikowsky up to come pick him up from the actual DZ. After being dropped off at a motel by the local sheriff. (part of his undoing I guess, in addition to fingerprints).

So it didn't really matter what the planned DZ was. Basically all the same.

(edit) McNally was an unemployed service-station attendant, high school dropout. Don't know about Petlikowsky.

[Orange1 0]

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In 1971 everything was not about "money" - there were more important issues . Ckret what do you know about the history of the 60's and 70's? - stop and think.

Yes, and protests/causes were generally very visible because people wanted to draw attention to the causes. Think the Weathermen, think the SLA, etc etc. How many high profile crimes were later linked to any "cause" without it being obvious at the time?

And other than some convoluted theories about a grudge against Boeing or someone else (with absolutely no logical pattern as to how that being carried out should translate into a financial cost for NWA rather than Boeing etc) there do not appear to be any indication of what any other "issue" might be. (Unless it was a grudge against NWA itself in which case Christiansen is the only suspect who fits here.)

On the other hand, none of the apprehended skyjackers of the time appears to have had any other motive than money. The 1970s were not all about causes. In fact you'd probably find, as always, 99.99% of financial crimes are motivated by personal financial gain.

Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.

[georger 197]

Snowmman, what does the RED X denote on your last Quinn's Cove jpeg? Those are VG photos. Tnx.

Im back, coming up to speed, but we have massive flooding here, more storms on the way, its a mess.
Im OK, all I know are OK, so... what's the X. ??

[snowmman 3]

people theorizing about extortion motives and saying once there's money, then it's all about financial gain.

let's bring it into the modern day.

Hacker gangs, morphing into extortion/financial gain plans.

What's their motive(s)?

If you say "they just want money, and they found an easy way to get it" ....uh yeah, you could believe that if you wanted to. That may have become the primary focus when the money angle was desired.

But saying that was the only motivation? don't think so?

But whatever. Mixed motives are somehow verboten. Humans act with single motives, by decree, I suppose.

So let's move on with our own singular motives!

[snowmman 3]

Treasure! oops what a giveaway...no just kidding.

I didn't create those, just grabbed them off someone's web page they had created for an annual get together there on the south end of caterpillar island. Thought it was useful looking.
looks like it's the dock there at quinn's cove? Yeah, you can see it labelled in the handdrawn map from the same post.

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Snowmman, what does the RED X denote on your last Quinn's Cove jpeg? Those are VG photos. Tnx.

Im back, coming up to speed, but we have massive flooding here, more storms on the way, its a mess.
Im OK, all I know are OK, so... what's the X. ??

[georger 197]

I will make a quick reply & hopfully more later ...

Go to the end of 6:21/18:21 which is the passage
everyone cites giving credit to Cooper for 15* flaps and other technical knowledge. It starts with Scott saying: "We have instructions from the Individual."
as if what follows are explicit instructions from Cooper. Next senetence begins: "He wants . . ." and the
technical list follows. Next comes strong debate about
these technical requests at the of which Scott says: "Roger, will talk to him again".

Every technical discussion through this period ends
with Scott saying: "will talk to him again". There even
comes a point in these technical discussions where
somebody says 'Where id he get that!?' and Scott
replies something like, 'well maybe he's got the manual back there ... dont know what he has back there', alluding directly to Cooper's technical requests
and some assumed technical expertise on Cooper's part, but, , , these technical debates come to nothing.
The settings required to accomplish a bailout are few
and clear, whether Scott or Cooper or SEADX knew
them.

The 727 had 3 flap options (discussed at length in
other groups): 5, 15, and 25 degrees, if I am correct.
15 degrees goes automatically with 160-170 kts and
gear down and BELOW 10,000ft which was Cooper's
original request. Regardless of who requested 15 degrees, 15 degrees is the only option based on the other flight parameters. All Cooper had to do was
request configs for a bailout - the rest follows.
(This has been discussed at length in other forums).

6:21 and Scott's remarks does make it sound like
Cooper had technical knowledge.

6:21 is the Genesis of Cooper's Urban Legend - the
diabolical genius who got away with it.

So let's assume he has technical expertise. Does this
help him get off the ground at SEADX in the fifteen
minute turn around he originally expected? No, that
becomes almost 2 hours! Does it lift the clouds for a
bailout? Does it change getting the air stairs out as
he wanted?

And why if he has important technical demands is he
making them through a third party, Mucklow?

Why isnt this technical genius working the futures
market or the gold market vs hijacking an airplane?












It reads: "will talk to him
again".

[georger 197]

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I always thought Cooper's specific request for 15 deg flaps indicated a lot of plane knowledge. Now, I am not sure if he made the request. Sluggo, is Cooper's flap request in the fact or fiction bin?

The transcript clearly states that Cooper requested to fly with gear down and flaps at 15 deg. (and, btw, that after underway all lights to be turned out in aircraft - which sounds like someone familiar with a n
night jump?)

____________________________________________

yes it does but a jump into what, where if he plans
to escape with his hide on? He trades technical
knowledge for a possible suicide?

[georger 197]

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Another clue pointing to the oscillation and bump being different events is the fact they spoke in the plural for the oscillations and singular for the bump.

I would think air crews are exacting in the cockpit in word and deed (at least I hope).

_______________________________________

They are two kinds of events, physically, in terms
of the aircraft itself. A pilot is going to know the
difference between an oscillation and a bump, but,
these are two pilots, a flight engineer, so its more
than one witness all with great technical expertise.

[georger 197]

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But I have been told by a Boeing engineer (who actually worked on the Cooper Vane) and by oher people that 305 was flying "dirty' meaning significant turbulence for anyone bailing at the back.

As a technical point, 305 opened it rear door before
10,000 feet and was unpressurised, and Scott still
reported the pressure difference (due mainly to the
Bernoulli affect). They did discuss tying Tina down
for her safety, because it was her who Cooper wanted
to open the door (its in the transcript).

I take everything you guys with first hand knowledge
say, as near gospel.

Then tell me this. He meets the air stream once he's
out of the vacuum behind the plane. Then what forces does he encounter? That is where I think I have read
things might fall apart for him.

Any help appreciated -

Playing devil's advocate here, but anyone who hasn't jumped doesn't seem to understand how difficult it is to just "fall out" of a plane. The transcript also states "ability to jump out of a 707 with a parachute on is nil" , which it clearly wasn't (I assume they meant 727 not 707?) ... just because opinions are expressed in the transcript doesn't make them fact!

In any case there are enough guys who have had experience jumping out of jets, they have stated that the exits are quite wild, but this is not the same as being "sucked out".

[georger 197]

can you do a jpeg or gif or bmp ???

[georger 197]

Im assuming that, or something close to that.
Thanks...

[georger 197]

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This is where you brilliant types leave me shaking my head as well as the rest of the theorist who want to put the Portland area as part of Coopers plan. If Cooper needed to land around Portland or Vancouver he would have directed the pilots to fly that direction.

____________________________________________

Its not that Portland was his plan but it just worked
out that way, just like sitting on the ground at SEA
for almost 2 hrs wasnt planned, then bailout with
rear door open immediately after liftoff didnt work
out, so he takes his next best option under poor
visibility after Scott levels and slows the plane
which is skyglow from Vancouver & Portland and
he bails. ... and money turns up at Tena Bar.

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[georger 197]

That is (has been) my understanding too - with
Scott concentrating on radio work.

Wasnt there a post about this some time back?