DB Cooper

[Sluggo_Monster 0]

"Flying Dirty" and "Flying Clean" are common pilot lingo used to express the condition of the flaps and/or retractable landing gear.

If the plane was "flying Dirty" the flaps and/or landing gear were extended. No more no less.

Slats deployed might increase turbulence, but at the tail, I don't know.

By the way, when I open the rear window in my SUV (at 80 mph), with the front vents open or closed, my papers stay put.

Sluggo

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[Sluggo_Monster 0]

Yes, and just before that ATC was going to route them down J-5 (which would have probably flown them into a mountain). So what they didn't take is not nearly as interesting as what made them decide what to take.

Uncle Sluggo

PS: You'll owe me dinner by Tuesday.

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[Sluggo_Monster 0]

All,

In musing over last night’s posts something occurred to me. Some of the “sleuths” and “investigators” on this board may not realize that there is a difference between the “aft door” and the “aft Stair”.

The 727-100 has an aft door (aka Aft Entry Door) which is 32” wide by 76” tall. This door is part of the “pressure boundary” (that’s a nuclear term, I think the aviation term is “pressure hull”). [See attached: 727 Aft Entry Door and Stairs Top & Side View.jpg and 727 Aft Entry Door and Stairs Side View.jpg] Note that there are 5 steps down after going through the “Aft Entry Door” (Pressure Hull) before one encounters the Aft Airstairs.

It also has a door (of a sort) called the “Aft Airstair” This is not part of the “pressure hull.” This is the door that we see in exterior photos of the stairs.

The Flight Engineer’s Lower Panel has annunciators for both aft doors. [See attached Flight Engineer's Lower Panel-1.jpg, and I apologize for the low quality]. The upper left light is the Aft Entry Door light and the next one down (on the left) is the Aft Airstair light.

So, when reading the transcripts, recognize that the pilots means something different when they talk about the door vs. the stair.

When Cooper told the pilots that; “The aft passenger loading door will be open and remain in that position and the aft stairs to be lowered after take-off,” he is defining an un-pressurized condition. On purpose? By accident?... I can only guess. If you think he was stupid (like Ckret…. I mean like Ckret thinks), it was by accident. If you think he was very smart (like Sluggo….. uh… thinks) it was part of a carefully executed plan.

I hope these drawings will help you visualize what it was like for Cooper as he tried to exit the Aft Door and lower the Aft Airstairs. I think most people are envisioning an exit like on a C-130 or some other cargo plane.

One other note: The truck that brings a portable stair out to the plane to allow passengers to exit the forward exit is also called Airstairs. The references (in the transcripts) to “Airstairs” have to be considered in context.

Sluggo_Monster

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[Sluggo_Monster 0]

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I was quizzing Sluggo on what kind of data might be on the flight recorder that was used in conjunction with the radar data to generate the '72 map, cause I couldn't envision how the radar data could be tweaked.

He replied with a list of probable events. I just noticed the last he listed was

* Time of each radio transmission either to or from air traffic control.

If this was true, and the data was available somewhere, it would eliminate some imprecision in the transcript log for the exact time of various radio transmissions. If we also knew how skewed the FDR time was relative to the transcript time, which we're using as the "golden" standard I guess?

Let's keep the context with the quote:

This was in a category of:
Here are a few of the parameters recorded by some FDRs of the era (1971):


Not in the category of:
Most FDRs of that era (1971) recorded:

Sluggo_Monster

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[Sluggo_Monster 0]

Ckret,

1971 was previous to the industries' introduction of a Human Performance concept called "Cockpit Resource Management".

So, "exacting in the cockpit in word and deed" may not apply. Not that I think they weren't very competent, I just see Rataczak cowering in the corner and trying to please Scott. Unless Rataczak was a "Company Pilot" in which Scott would have been trying to make him look ridiculous. Or maybe, the mysterious Anderson was the “Company Pilot” and Scot and Rataczak tried to make him look ridiculous.



Sluggo_Monster

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[Sluggo_Monster 0]

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So what's up here? Did 305 really swing wide? Is the '71 map just wrong? Does the airway cover 4NM from the center? If so, I guess the flight path is within the defined airway.

If the wind was coming from the south, Scott shouldn't have been fighting a wind that would blow him SE? Maybe the wind wasn't from the south, although my NOAA map says that. Maybe it shifted by the evening?

He was probably just changing the Nav Radio over to the EUG VORTAC so he could continue on V-23. A VOR has a “Cone of Confusion” above it (the higher you are the wider it is). He would need to get on the 355 degree radial FROM EUG at that point. EUG is a high altitude VOR, so he may have had difficulty finding it.

Nothing really unusual about that curve.

Also, that was a busy time for the flight crew.

DON’T confuse ground level winds with “winds aloft.”

Sluggo_Monster

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[snowmman 3]

Sluggo

when we talk about the pilots being able to see the suburbs or whatnot, and the distance implied, have we all been kind of visualizing they're on a straight line path to Portland...doesn't this "what they can see" change a bit if they were really on the curvy path.

I think you mentioned this before, and the '71 air map confirms it...that there was less development in Vancouver then...so a curvy path might make you feel like you were more in the sticks also.

I'm thinking on the curvy path...that it "feels" like you're farther from Portland...

you see what I mean?

at an extreme level, think of someone flying S's coming in to PDX and what they would describe.

[Ckret 0]

Jo,
This may come as a shock to you but my job is to have an opinion on what the evidence, witnesses and lab reports say. I have 20 years (Actually 19 but 20 sounds more round) of schooling and experience with regard to criminal matters. Granted my expertise is bank robbery, but I do have a solid foundation in most investigative matters (weak in cyber and sex crimes).

The fact of the matter is that it would not be unusual not to find prints of value on the resume. We all handle documents and items in like nature. For example, Duane prints off his resume and holds it in a certain fashion to inspect and read it. If you or anyone else were to handle the document you would do it in the same manner as Duane, diminishing the value of any prints left by Duane.

This is why five of the prints on the resume could be related to your elimination prints, as you most likely were one of the last to touch it. Duane's prints, if he held the document, are on the resume. Due to many factor's, making a comparison of the latents to Duane's known master prints was not possible. This is why the lab stated to do any further comparisons they would need a set of Major Case prints from Duane, which we don't have.

I am done trying to explain this, take from it what you will and run in the direction you choose.

[snowmman 3]

interesting. I was reading a news article in the mid-50's about a guy in a military jet who crashed into a ski mountain...it was sad, his instruments were out and he was relying on the ATC guys, and they guided him right into the mountain. Then the ATC guys blamed radar echo, and had the gall to say the guy was partly to blame cause he didn't have much experience, and most experienced pilots would know you have to take the ATC information with a grain of salt, and why was he going so fast anyhow....

History is always written by the survivors I guess. There really is no such thing as "fact", is there? Everything is colored by the observer.

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Yes, and just before that ATC was going to route them down J-5 (which would have probably flown them into a mountain). So what they didn't take is not nearly as interesting as what made them decide what to take.

Uncle Sluggo

PS: You'll owe me dinner by Tuesday.

[Ckret 0]

Ratczak was the flight engineer.

Maybe we should bring Anderson into the picture, I'll go over what he had to say and post it. He did not give much of a statement, neither did Scott.

Hancock gave a good statement, i'll post what she had to say. In fact when you compare Hanock with Mucklow we learn Cooper had the chute on prior to Hancok leaving the plane in Seattle.

[Ckret 0]

For the record (by-the-way who is keeping that?) Cooper was not unintelligent, he was lazy. He used his intellect to make up for effort. He would solve half the puzzle and make up the rest based on his logic and knowledge instead of study.

How do we know this? The biggest clue is instead of getting another job or two to make the money he needed he took the quick way of crime. He knew some of the details of his plan but obviously missed a few. Cooper is not unlike anyone who commits high profile crimes, inflated sense of self, higher the average intelligence and sense of entitlement.

[snowmman 3]

Hey Ckret,
Even though later papers on skyjacking kind of discredited Hubbard and the profile he created in the early '70s, have you read the Hubbard profile? a summary is available online in Google Books.
I was wondering if you had any thoughts on whether some of the classic thinking on skyjackers might apply here, or are you still just thinking Cooper's thinking like a bank robber?

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For the record (by-the-way who is keeping that?) Cooper was not unintelligent, he was lazy. He used his intellect to make up for effort. He would solve half the puzzle and make up the rest based on his logic and knowledge instead of study.

How do we know this? The biggest clue is instead of getting another job or two to make the money he needed he took the quick way of crime. He knew some of the details of his plan but obviously missed a few. Cooper is not unlike anyone who commits high profile crimes, inflated sense of self, higher the average intelligence and sense of entitlement.

[Ckret 0]

I am familiar with the work but liken it to the "Six Degrees of Kevin Bacon." As are my thoughts on most scholarly works relating to the criminal mind. Just my utilitarian bent on the subject matter.

[Mr.Nuke 0]

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Ratczak was the flight engineer.

For my first post I hate to question the FBI agent, but are sure? Everything I've ever read or seen on the case has Captain Scott, First Officer Rataczak and flight engineer Anderson, with Rataczak being the PIC.

[snowmman 3]

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When Cooper told the pilots that; “The aft passenger loading door will be open and remain in that position and the aft stairs to be lowered after take-off,”

Hi Sluggo,
can you quote the source for the quoted statement..was that from Ckret? The problem with the transcripts now is we're second guessing them sometimes, as possible misintrepretations sometimes (like the description of "he's got the knapsack around him" when there was no knapsack)

If Cooper's request was as you state, it certainly changes my thinking of this whole airstairs demand, and Cooper's possible knowledge. I had originally thought Cooper said stairs down after takeoff based on reading the transcripts, but then Ckret was so insistent about Cooper wanting the stairs down at takeoff I assumed there was testimony that we didn't have that maybe Cooper really wanted the stairs dragging as the plane took off...which is why I was going on and on about that a number of posts ago.

Now you just posted a apparent "fact" that was what I thought was the original Cooper request all along.

If so, that's great. And thanks for all the clarifications and drawings. Good stuff.

[Sluggo_Monster 0]

Quote

For the record (by-the-way who is keeping that?) Cooper was not unintelligent, he was lazy. He used his intellect to make up for effort. He would solve half the puzzle and make up the rest based on his logic and knowledge instead of study.

How do we know this? The biggest clue is instead of getting another job or two to make the money he needed he took the quick way of crime. He knew some of the details of his plan but obviously missed a few. Cooper is not unlike anyone who commits high profile crimes, inflated sense of self, higher the average intelligence and sense of entitlement.

Ckret… Ckret… Ckret…

Here we go again! I just can’t let that pass.

First:
It should be casual to the most obvious observer, that, I am keeping the record. In fact, I started keeping the record when you were eight years old!
Second:
Why is it about the money?

There are a lot of reasons to hijack a plane, jump out of it, and then escape. Money, strikes me as pretty low on the list.

If it was money that motivated him, then think about that a bit. You have just stated that he was too lazy to just get more jobs. Well, what about hold up a few banks in the PAC NW? Look what Christopher Boyce did, while a fugitive, and being chased by the US Marshalls (and the FBI) Boyce carried out 17 bank robberies in Idaho and Washington state. In 1971, a PAC NW bank robbery was easy money.

Even though in 1971 $200,000 was a lot of money, I don’t think the money was the issue. Even McCoy (when hearing about Cooper) stated he should have asked for $1 million.

I know that with 20 years with the Bureau you have had some training (or maybe a lot of training) in criminal profiling, and I am certainly no expert. But there is something fundamentally weak in your argument. In the “Deep South” (Note the capital letters) we have an expression that is perfect for these situations. It is, “There’s a dead horse in the middle of the creek.”

Since thinking like you predecessors hasn’t solved NORJAK in almost 37 years, why not take a bold step and try some different thinking?

Let’s see… Hmmmm….

He wanted to commit suicide by cop. No, if that were true he wouldn’t have hidden in the Lavatory while on the ground in Seattle.

He wanted to commit suicide by skydiving. No, he wouldn’t have tied the money to himself, or gotten rid of the note, or gotten Tina to write the other notes… etc.

Maybe he wanted the FBI to look bad. Hmmm… He certainly did that. He seemed to have a particular interest in the FBI. He didn’t say “Cops,” or “Law Enforcement,” or “Po-lece,” (that’s southern for Police) when on the ground in Seattle…. He said: “F B I”. So, let’s hold on to that a while.

What about getting back at Boeing? Why do that? Well, maybe he was a designer who was against having the AFT Stairs in the design. Damn it! He told them someone would try this, and now it’s happened. Let’s see if we can find someone who strenuously objected to that design. So here is another avenue to go down.

Maybe he had a grudge against NWA, they had more labor problems than most airlines…..

Maybe the insurance company….

Maybe the FAA or DOT….

I’m not going to go on with this, but I think you can see my point even if you don’t get my point.

Money is not the only thing that motivates criminals (or FBI Agents).

Come on, Ckret… Let’s put some energy into this thing… let’s go get him, dead or alive.

Submitted respectfully (even if it doesn’t sound like it),

Uncle Sluggo

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[Ckret 0]

I can answer that, Cooper wanted the stairs down at takeoff, when he discovered that was not possible, he wanted the aft door open at takeoff, which it was.

[Sluggo_Monster 0]

Quote

Quote

When Cooper told the pilots that; “The aft passenger loading door will be open and remain in that position and the aft stairs to be lowered after take-off,”

Hi Sluggo,
can you quote the source for the quoted statement..was that from Ckret? The problem with the transcripts now is we're second guessing them sometimes, as possible misintrepretations sometimes (like the description of "he's got the knapsack around him" when there was no knapsack)

If Cooper's request was as you state, it certainly changes my thinking of this whole airstairs demand, and Cooper's possible knowledge. I had originally thought Cooper said stairs down after takeoff based on reading the transcripts, but then Ckret was so insistent about Cooper wanting the stairs down at takeoff I assumed there was testimony that we didn't have that maybe Cooper really wanted the stairs dragging as the plane took off...which is why I was going on and on about that a number of posts ago.

Now you just posted a apparent "fact" that was what I thought was the original Cooper request all along.

If so, that's great. And thanks for all the clarifications and drawings. Good stuff.

MSP Transcript 6:21 PST. I didn't check context, so it may be after they convinced him the could not take off with the stairs lowered.

Sluggo

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[snowmman 3]

Sluggo

you referenced some southern style police names. I think we need to be very accurate in our facts here.

I can provide the exact quote from the Muppet Movie

Dr. Teeth: It's the man with the badge, the PO-lice, the cops, the fuzz, the P-I-...
Miss Piggy: Don't you dare!
Dr. Teeth: I wouldn't think of it.

[Ckret 0]

Sluggo,

If it were anything other than the money he would have stated it. No one goes through the effort Cooper did or any other high profile crime with a cause and not state it once they have the "mic." In Cooper's case the grudge gave him the moral clarity to go through with his plan. We all have that compass that guides our actions. Once we have justification for where the compass points then we as humans allow ourselves to go forward.

[Ckret 0]

Sluggo,

I was reading over your web page, it's not 800 suspects, to be exact it's 1057

[snowmman 3]

This is going down another track, chasing the thinking of "Loner".

Loner was introduced as a way of explaining why no one reported Cooper missing, if he died.

Now lets forget human relationships and just think about "stuff"...the trappings of life we surround ourselves with.

Ok, he probably had a bank account. Let's say the money just went unclaimed after he's dead.

Ok, let's say he was renting. The landlord just forgot about him and threw out his stuff, and rented the apt to someone else. Assumed he skipped out.

But if he was some kind of engineer type, I'm thinking he'd own a car. Sure he might not have used it to drive to the hijack, so it wasn't found at PDX if he died.

But if he died, his car (assuming he owned one) was sitting somewhere. Wouldn't someone notice that eventually?

Are we saying that if Cooper's dead, he probably didn't own a car to drive to work? Or are we just saying "Yeah Cooper had no friends and no stuff, or any friends and stuff just got ignored when he died".

Why would you have that tie-bar and no car? Did he work in a city and use public transportation? I thought most of the big aviation employment centers were outside major cities.

Thoughts?

[Orange1 0]

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The fact of the matter is that it would not be unusual not to find prints of value on the resume. We all handle documents and items in like nature. For example, Duane prints off his resume and holds it in a certain fashion to inspect and read it. If you or anyone else were to handle the document you would do it in the same manner as Duane, diminishing the value of any prints left by Duane.

A perfectly logical explanation! Can we now please lay discussion of "ghosts" to rest?!

Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.

[Orange1 0]

Quote

This is going down another track, chasing the thinking of "Loner".

Loner was introduced as a way of explaining why no one reported Cooper missing, if he died.

Now lets forget human relationships and just think about "stuff"...the trappings of life we surround ourselves with.

Ok, he probably had a bank account. Let's say the money just went unclaimed after he's dead.

Ok, let's say he was renting. The landlord just forgot about him and threw out his stuff, and rented the apt to someone else. Assumed he skipped out.

But if he was some kind of engineer type, I'm thinking he'd own a car. Sure he might not have used it to drive to the hijack, so it wasn't found at PDX if he died.

But if he died, his car (assuming he owned one) was sitting somewhere. Wouldn't someone notice that eventually?

Are we saying that if Cooper's dead, he probably didn't own a car to drive to work? Or are we just saying "Yeah Cooper had no friends and no stuff, or any friends and stuff just got ignored when he died".

Why would you have that tie-bar and no car? Did he work in a city and use public transportation? I thought most of the big aviation employment centers were outside major cities.

Thoughts?

Or some enterprising fellow might have noticed a seemingly abandoned car and hotwired it, bonus for him and no car left to arouse suspicion? IF he had a car. I'm not sure about the logic from tie bar to car, the tie bar was cheap and it seems like everyone wore one in those days, just like everyone wore ties (I mean... have you seen the contemporary pictures of Woodward and Bernstein? Even they wore ties!!)

I'm not at all convinced Cooper died that night, but I strongly believe that if he survived we are almost certainly looking for someone with jumping/survival experience.

Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.

[snowmman 3]

re "bar to car"

the tiebar, in fact Cooper's whole "costume" can be used to imply something about his employment.
(edit) or recently past employment, if he had been fired or laid off?

So maybe I meant to say "theories about his employment would seem to imply car". Although it is just a guess, based on my thinking about aviation employment in those days.

On the other hand, an opposing theory might be: "Cooper lived and worked in a city with public transportation"