DB Cooper

[Ckret 0]

Another clue pointing to the oscillation and bump being different events is the fact they spoke in the plural for the oscillations and singular for the bump.

I would think air crews are exacting in the cockpit in word and deed (at least I hope).

[georger 197]

True, its the difference between direct flow vs indirect flow.
At the back of the aircraft you arent experiencing the
direct flow through the air stream. At the front and sides you are. This is why at the tail they call it a "slip stream"? if I am correct, because you are out of the direct air flow.

But I have been told by a Boeing engineer (who actually worked on the Cooper Vane) and by oher people that 305 was flying "dirty' meaning significant turbulence for anyone bailing at the back.

As a technical point, 305 opened it rear door before
10,000 feet and was unpressurised, and Scott still
reported the pressure difference (due mainly to the
Bernoulli affect). They did discuss tying Tina down
for her safety, because it was her who Cooper wanted
to open the door (its in the transcript).

[Orange1 0]

Quote

But I have been told by a Boeing engineer (who actually worked on the Cooper Vane) and by oher people that 305 was flying "dirty' meaning significant turbulence for anyone bailing at the back.

As a technical point, 305 opened it rear door before
10,000 feet and was unpressurised, and Scott still
reported the pressure difference (due mainly to the
Bernoulli affect). They did discuss tying Tina down
for her safety, because it was her who Cooper wanted
to open the door (its in the transcript).

Playing devil's advocate here, but anyone who hasn't jumped doesn't seem to understand how difficult it is to just "fall out" of a plane. The transcript also states "ability to jump out of a 707 with a parachute on is nil" , which it clearly wasn't (I assume they meant 727 not 707?) ... just because opinions are expressed in the transcript doesn't make them fact!

In any case there are enough guys who have had experience jumping out of jets, they have stated that the exits are quite wild, but this is not the same as being "sucked out".

Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.

[snowmman 3]

I always wanted to do this to see what it looked like.

Here it is. I finally switched to my bigger monitor rather than my laptop and Google Earth is much more impressive.

I took the FBI '71 flight path hand drawn map, and imported into GE and stretched and rotated it untill a number of landmarks aligned. The Columbia, various highways, Mt St Helen's peak (although a bit blown now) Lake Merwin.

The paper map wasn't photographed perfectly, so there's a little nonalignment I can't fix, but it's pretty good looking.

Then I adjusted the transparency and added some pushpins on the time markers "on that map"...these time markers may be skewed compared to how we currently mark time.

This has nothing to do with Sluggo's work, and I have no idea how the '71 map was created by the FBI. I believe it was handdrawn at some point (the heavy line)

If you're a GE whiz you'll be able to adjust the transparency of the map. I left it about half way.
(the short decription if you want:
open up 71 flight path.kmz in your Temporary Places,. find "71 flight path overlay", right click it and select Properties, and you'll get the Transparency slider)

Just clicking on the .kmz after you save it should load it into GE for you.

Ingram money find location there too.

the usual feedback is encouraged.

I used the "zoomed-in" map that was available at one of the newspapers.

If Ckret could scan a better version of the '71 map in the area around portland, I could redo a better one. Maybe not worth it if we don't know the data behind the '71 line drawing.

[quade 3]

Quote

es, the plane was not pressurised for altitude, but
there is a pressure difference between inside vs outside due to air flow around the aircraft. Hi velocity air outside vs. no-velocity air inside equals a pressure
difference, ie. the Bernoulli affect. True, the pressure
difference is least at the tail (underside) of the aircraft
but the minute you open the rear door, air from
the inside is drawn out and pressure equalises. Then, you have a more steady state. This is basic physics.

If the plane isn't pressurized, then all of the leaks in the airplane (and trust me there are always leaks) would be constantly equalizing this from take off to touch down. There would be no rush of wind due to pressure equalization from opening the door. There may be a slight change in air pressure similar to your ears popping on an elevator, but no rush of wind.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[quade 3]

Quote

But I have been told by a Boeing engineer (who actually worked on the Cooper Vane) and by oher people that 305 was flying "dirty' meaning significant turbulence for anyone bailing at the back.

In aviation terminology "dirty" simply means the gear and flaps are down. This is in contrast to "clean" gear and flaps up.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[snowmman 3]

orange1: in my last SAGE/F106 post, there was info that suggested F106 intercepts may have been very dependent on visual intercept under the mountains/low altitude/radar distance from McChord conditions. (given '71 technology in place..see the description of the radar on the F106's). Be interesting if people with more knowledge on this might chime in.

so lights out would help avoid that?

I guess both theories support "knowledge" thinking of some kind.

Quote

Quote

I always thought Cooper's specific request for 15 deg flaps indicated a lot of plane knowledge. Now, I am not sure if he made the request. Sluggo, is Cooper's flap request in the fact or fiction bin?

The transcript clearly states that Cooper requested to fly with gear down and flaps at 15 deg. (and, btw, that after underway all lights to be turned out in aircraft - which sounds like someone familiar with a night jump?)

[snowmman 3]

I guess if you jumped near PDX, you could just walk back to a car and solve the issue of how Cooper got to PDX initially. (drive home).

what about flying?

Pearson Field is an interesting little airport.

it's at 45°37'21.21"N 122°39'20.79"W

walking distance to PDX?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pearson_Field_Airport

flying your own private plane to and from the hijack would be interesting. You could walk to PDX. Then if you jump near Portland/Vancouver, you could make your way back and fly off pretty easily?

I remember hearing FBI checking private airfields up around Amboy/La Center/View.


Evergreen Field apparently another although more of a hike. Closed in 2006. 45.62N 122.53W can still see it in GE.

[georger 197]

Quote

georger
I ADMIRE THE HECK OUT OF SLUGGO.

Okay georger… let’s get one thing straight… here… and now, damn it!

Flattery will get you everywhere!
-------------------------------------------------------

Yummpin Yimminie! With this Im going out to dinner.
Its 6:43 give or take here. Our 40 days of rain and
tornados has parted briefly so Im going up to an
observatory I know and look at some stars. I need a
break! See yall later. Yeeeeeeeeehaw and Shalom.

George under stress.

[AggieDave 6]

Quote

Dave, I'll explaine it, Duanes prints are most likely on the resume but because of the touch of others are of no value.

I understand, but you know as well as I do that when something doesn't conform to what someone desires the answer, no matter how true, will not be good enough. It will leave, in their mind, room for some sort of grand conspiracy that is completely outlandish.

I think I may have missed it, but out of curiosity when was the last time the Cooper prints were run through AFIS?

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[ltdiver 3]

georger...

We need to get the lot of you whuffo's down to Perris sometime and get you all to do tandems out of the jet. First tandem out of our (side door) Super Otter (to get the 1st time "Pucker Factor" off the table), then the 2nd tandem out of the jet. Then you'll be able to relate a bit more to what we're communicating on the flight/wind/jump characteristics Cooper might have experienced.

Having done a number of jet jumps I have to respectfully (and completely) disagree with the suggestion that there is any turbulence, rushing air, or pressure change at the back of the bus when the aft door is first opened. There -is- a sound change, however. Alot noisier! :^)

Blues,

ltdiver

Don't tell me the sky's the limit when there are footprints on the moon

[Ckret 0]

This is where you brilliant types leave me shaking my head as well as the rest of the theorist who want to put the Portland area as part of Coopers plan. If Cooper needed to land around Portland or Vancouver he would have directed the pilots to fly that direction.

He would have given nothing away in regard to his escape by saying, "fly V23." This would assure the plane would have flown over Portland. If he cared at all where he was going to bail he would have dictated a flight path. There was nothing to gain by withholding a flight path. Cooper had to have known the planes path could be tracked at all times, therefore, what would be the point in leaving such a critical detail so open ended. I know Uncle Sluggo likes to think there is only one choice the pilots could take so there was no need to tell them. This, however, isn't true, there are several low level routes from Seatac as well as point to point. As I have said many times, just before they were cleared for V23 they were going to fly out to the coast and turn south.

Especially with the conditions of the night it makes no sense not to direct the flight path. If it were a clear night maybe you don't say (although it still does not make sense) because you could look out and determine if the crew took the route you wanted, if not correct them. But he would not be able to do that in this case.

[snowmman 3]

okay, it's not a day at snow's place unless he taunts Ckret.

Everyone knows why Ckret thinks the DZ was supposed to be SEATAC: Ckret thinks there's better coffee in WA than OR.

I'm going to eventually have two newspaper articles up on my wall:
one with Agent H. professing knowledge of Cooper impact speeds based on some whacky wind data. And the other quoting Agent C. with the Coffee+Rubber Band Theory.

Actually, come to think of it, I would probably research that article if there was one..
Never mind.
JOKE! FUNNY! :)

[low_pull1 2]

Jo, Ft. Collins is in CO
........
He had a DUI around 1979 in Ft. Collins, Fl.
.............

[low_pull1 2]

jo, what other things and what tapes?? why do you ALWAYS end up with more info "after the fact"
...

I have notes and tapes I cannot use regarding other things during that time span
.................

[low_pull1 2]

at one time you were saying duane woke up in a nightmare talkin about his prints...and u were forceing the print issue,,,now bakc peddling?

.....
NOTE:
Nothing has changed regarding Duane - NOTHING. They do not know if any of the prints belonged to Cooper. I have no verification that the 1944 prints and the 1966 prints match and why Duane's prints as per the file are not on that resume. This raises a lot of questions in MY mind as to the credibility of the prints.
....

[snowmman 3]

ok, I guess I'm just trying to provoke Sluggo a bit here, but we'll see what he says :)
I'm no pilot. just playing with Google Earth. So by definition I know nothing here.

So I took the V23 kmz stuff Sluggo created (that I got from him way back when we were talking about money find location) and vortacs and whatever, and put that in the '71 overlay kmz I created above.

Remember the '71 map is hand drawn by who knows who, maybe at the time of the hijack. It's the one on the newspaper web sites, where Carr showed them a map (not the '72 map)

The hand written times on that map may be skewed to the times we normally consider in transcripts. I don't know. It's the times written on that map.

In the attached jpg, that map is semi-transparent, but you can see the black flight path from the pencil on that map.

Everything else is Google Earth.

Someone made a joke way back when, about a pilot driving like a drunken sailor or something.

What's interesting is the big curve around the Battleground vortac. It's the furthest discrepancy from the V23 indicated path.

It seems to be ~3.5NM miles E of the V23 centerline.

Sluggo has said something about PDX not being involved in a tower control situation thru this airspace.

So what's up here? Did 305 really swing wide? Is the '71 map just wrong? Does the airway cover 4NM from the center? If so, I guess the flight path is within the defined airway.

If the wind was coming from the south, Scott shouldn't have been fighting a wind that would blow him SE? Maybe the wind wasn't from the south, although my NOAA map says that. Maybe it shifted by the evening?

I attached a jpg so you don't have to go into GE.

Note that by the Columbia crossing at PDX, the flight path is dead-on V23..you can almost not see the black mark under the pink V23 line.

[snowmman 3]

Here's the same thing (you can see the black path)
except I'm over Portland, at 17000 ft, roughly.
looks cool heh! you can see PDX runways there.

Hey reminds me...I can actually create a flyby in Google Earth. If we agree on flight path, we can actual have GE fly it, at 10,000 ft...looking down at whatever angle you like.

I'm looking back up N here..
(attached)

[skyjack71 0]

Some one who would take the words of only one person in this forum and say they have a mental problem is the one who has a problem.

I am taking the words that were written by Ckret and doing the same thing you all do. His saying that maybe they were smugged is merely his statement and not what the report read as it was stated in a prior posting

Why don't you post something useful rather than posting snide remarks about me.

.

Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber

[JSBIRD 1]

Snow.

V23 is a Victor Airway.

Victor Airways are 8 nautical miles wide, 4 nautical miles on each side of the centerline of the airway.

It's not unusual to swing wide at an airway/fix intersection turn.

359

"Now I've settled down,
in a quiet little town,
and forgot about everything"

[skyjack71 0]

Quote

Quote

I never thought about this, untl Sluggo just referenced it, but another clue we have that the oscillation and bump were two different incidents is the visual of the crew. At 8:11 when the crew reported the oscillation there is no way they could see the

The only way you are going to find factual info on that is to talk to Biill the Co- Pilot. I am sure he would be glad to talk to you. He had someone contact me recentlly and I now have some help in the Vancouver area.

Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber

• Quote

[skyjack71 0]

Quote

Jo, Ft. Collins is in CO
........
He had a DUI around 1979 in Ft. Collins, Fl.
.............

Just a little error on the keyboard.
We lived in Ft. Collins Co and he got a DUI there in 1979 or maybe early 1980.

Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber

[skyjack71 0]

Quote

Date: 1/17/2008 9:12:52 PM Central Standard Time

To: HOMES4UBYJO

Quote

Dear Jo, I enjoy reading the excerpts from skeptics who were not there to give 'credence' to matters they have no first hand knowledge of. There was a registration card signed by " D B Cooper ". The name on that card was "------------" . I may have been only a 27 year old at that time but I still have a very good memory of that incident because of the 'questioning' that I received by the investigators involved that following evening when I came to work. My mind is as good now as it was then because I have kept it that way. I support you in your quest and have seen nothing as yet to doubt or question your evidence or my belief in that evidence as related to the facts as I know them to be true! I am not one for euphemisms as you know, however you can tell these non-believers that unless they have "been there-done that" they are just spreading their lies ,they know nothing, and they can go to hell! With my best wishes for your success,yours truly --------.

I recieve a phone call from China and a written report of his experience during this time is in the process of being prepared. I have one, but tired of trying to find it in all of this "stuff".

When he was in the states he had more important matters to tend to and did not contact Ckret, but now feels compelled to come forward.

After I recieve it - it will go to the FBI. Ckret I think I sent you the one he prepared before...did I not.

Ckret please send me the information I requested - and please refrain from stating opinions on the prints - use the reports and ask the people who wrote the report what was meant.

This is typical of the things that have been done since 1971 - and then the truth and he said or she said gets all tangled up. No one knows what was really meant by that report other than the person who prepared it. We have to go by what they wrote and what it says is that NO prints matched the Prints of Duane L. Weber.

It would be very ODD if not one print of Duane's was not on that resume.

Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber

[AggieDave 6]

Quote

I am taking the words that were written by Ckret and doing the same thing you all do. His saying that maybe they were smugged is merely his statement and not what the report read as it was stated in a prior posting

All I've asked for in the last series of posts, and yet to have seen, is for you to post some sort of actual evidence to back any single one of your claims.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[n467us 0]

Jo,

Speaking of Ft. Collins, CO, your name shows up there as having some unclaimed funds...

www.missingmoney.com

I again encourage you to trace all of your past states of residence with Duane, check the state unclaimed database (using all known identities) and you might get lucky and find more pieces to your puzzle.