DB Cooper

[quade 3]

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but wouldn't it have been decomposed more if it had been there since 1971?

I think estimating the decomposition of the money is a pretty inexact science when the people doing the estimation have NO idea how the money was originally protected. We have no actual knowledge of how the money was contained as DB Cooper supposedly jumped. While Tina said she saw DB Cooper tying it around his waist, it's entirely possible that after that he decided that wasn't the way he wanted to actually make the jump and rearranged the money including putting it inside something more friendly to the elements.

Nobody saw DB Cooper actually jump. To definitively state how the money was protected at that point is speculation at best.

The ONLY thing we know for certain is that the money found at Tena Bar was some of the money from the hijacking.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[JamieCooper 0]

I've toyed with the idea that it may have been to make people think he drowned but, my father never said anything at all about it so I can't reasonably disagree with your idea here either. it sounds reasonable but still, wouldn't a paperbag decompose quit fast too? thus leaving the money exposed to the elements longer than the experts estimate?
I guess in the end its only guesses either way so?
I don't think we'll ever know for sure.

[quade 3]

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Most likely scenario: Cooper lands safely and tosses the money into the Washougal or Lewis Rivers, etc. inside a bag or something. Money stays together long enough in the bag to be deposited in the same spot. I imagine if this is true, Cooper would be disappointed it took them nine years to find it.

Huh? Support your claim. Why is this the "most likely scenario." Why in heaven would the hijacker toss the money into the river? That doesn't make any sense whatsoever.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[377 21]

Quade wrote:

Quote

While there are an endless stream of illogical possibilities, there are only two logical ways the money gets to Tena Bar

That money find keeps me awake at night.

The upstream ship transport theory is nuts, but have you seen the pictures of dead whales draped stabily across the bulbous bows of ships and carried all the way to the dock?

I've seen photos of several different ships that snagged whales in this manner. Makes me think ships hit whales far more often than is reported. I'd guess less than one in a hundred struck whales would stay lodged in this position all the way to port.

Let's say Cooper splashed into the Columbia under an open C9. Safe to say that if he went into the river he drowned. Sometimes canopies trap enough air to float for a while. Amazon could give us the dope on this. It is extraordinarily unlikely but not impossible that a ships bow could have snagged Coopers suspension lines or canopy and transported him upstream

I don't think this happened but the whale snags show you that ships can drape things across their bows and carry them substantial distances.

Another possibility is that the money find didn't happen as reported, that the parents subtly led the kid to the money. I don't think that happened either, but you have to think out of the box.

I really wish I knew for sure whether there was a debris field of money shards all over the area. I tend to think not, but the land owners are reported to have seen it.

Snowmman did a lot of really good research on dredging. I am keeping an open mind as to whether the bundles were deposited by a dredge. I know Palmer says no.

Jo and Al, I just tune out on theories that say the government conspired to do Norjack or that it was done as a protest or demo of lax security. That would have taken a lot of participants and someone would have spilled the beans eventually. Even before Wiki Leaks there was the equivalent, anonymous calls and letters to newspaper reporters giving them leads that they could follow. Look at Watergate. BTW Deep Throat was an FBI agent and he eventually revealed his identity and role.

I don't like what Occam tells me about the Tena Bar money find. He tells me that it indicates Cooper died doing the jump. I want a live Cooper and a great story about how he kept from being identified and captured.

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[quade 3]

Still not buying it. It simply makes no sense.

If Cooper landed safely with the money it makes no sense whatsoever for him to toss three bank bundles of money into the river.

Think about it. He would know he pulled off the "perfect" crime. Why in heavens name would he, as you've suggested, leave a clue? Doing so positively screws up the perfect crime and leaves a trail for the FBI to follow. That's simply an unsupportable position.

Put yourself in his shoes; would you do it?

You've just jumped out of an airplane. You KNOW the police and FBI are looking for you, but to this point you've left no clues as to where you might be.

Seriously? You toss $6,000 into a river to throw them off the trail?!? That's insanity. Nobody would do that because it simply does not make any sense. There's no compelling reason to do it and a TON of reasons not to do it.

I will admit it's on the fringe of something an insane person might do, but it simply makes no sense.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[quade 3]

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The upstream ship transport theory is nuts, but have you seen the pictures of dead whales draped stabily across the bulbous bows of ships and carried all the way to the dock?

If 10,000 ships cross the ocean, yes, this is bound to happen one or twice.

If the first guy to ever successfully hijack and airplane, escapes via parachute, lands in a river, is snagged by a boat and carried upstream . . .

Forget it. That's friggin' nuts.

Blevins says;

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If you assume that Cooper died in the jump and the bundles were money that he did not put back into the bag, but crashed to the ground with in his pockets, it is difficult to believe he died. Why? Because they would have found his body or the parachutes in the same area.

Hogwash.

Assume Cooper had the money secured to him as Tina last saw him, but he dies on landing or shortly thereafter. If he dies on landing, the bag of money is only secured with some 550 cord. If his body is washed down the watershed, it's trivial for the bag of money to become separated from the body. It's trivial for his entire body to separate from his clothing. Body parts could have been strewn by rushing water over the years for miles.

Water is a powerful force. Over the years it tears stuff up and carries it down stream. Assuming DB Cooper's body would be in one place is like assuming you could find the dirt from the Grand Canyon all in one chunk somewhere in the Gulf of California.

There is no logical reason to suspect everything from the bag of money to his body and parachutes would be found in one single location. None.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[quade 3]

It could just have easily been the entire bag of money. All decomposed around it with the center few thousand remaining at the time it was found. Or, of the entire bag of money found, it was determined by the finders that these few shredded bills would suffice in the telling of the tale while the rest were pocketed.

We could play this game all night and day.

I think you're placing FAR too much significance on the what is almost certainly the coincidence of the offer to Tina and the amount of money found at Tena Bar.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[377 21]

Blevins wrote:

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and were ordinary Northwest folks

... Right. Is it ordinary for the head of the household in the NW to have an arrest warrant outstanding?[;)

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[Sluggo_Monster 0]

RobertBlevins said:

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…and were ordinary Northwest folks.

I don’t EVEN want into this discussion, but, I’m compelled to point out that you (Robert) show that you have done little or no research. You just make assumptions.

They weren’t from the Northwest, they had just arrived from Oklahoma (a few weeks prior). If fact Brian’s dad was arrested and taken back (to OK) on an outstanding warrant.

It is these “inconsequential” issues that destroy your credibility. I know… I know… You’re just doing this as a sideline… bet I always say “In for a penny… In for a pound!”

Just my read on why no one takes your book(s) or you seriously.

Web Page
Blog
NORJAK Forum

[smokin99 0]

Blevins said

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3) Tina Mucklow testified that Cooper offered her 'two or three bundles' of the money.

Where is the "two or three bundles" documented? Not doubting it...just haven't taken the time to look it up and, since you're referencing it, I was hoping you'd know off the top of your head.

This is excerpted from a newspaper local interest item which references Tina's sister as being a local resident: TINA MUCKLOW, sister of ....., was offered a bundle of $20 bills by a hijacker and rejected the offer. Miss Mucklow was a stewardess on the Northwest Airlines flight last November in which a hijacker took $200.000 ransom and parachuted out of the plane over the wilds of Oregon. She said she
didn t accept the money because "it wouldn t be right.'

but....A lie gets halfway around the world before the truth has a chance to get its pants on.....Winston Churchill

[Robert99 37]

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Blevins said

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3) Tina Mucklow testified that Cooper offered her 'two or three bundles' of the money.

Where is the "two or three bundles" documented? Not doubting it...just haven't taken the time to look it up and, since you're referencing it, I was hoping you'd know off the top of your head.

Page 23 of Richard Tosaw's book has a discussion of Cooper offering Alice and Florence (the other two stews) one bundle of money each as they were departing the aircraft. Both declined to accept it. There is no indication in this book of Tina ever being offered a bundle of money.

Robert Nicholson

• Quote

[377 21]

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If 10,000 ships cross the ocean, yes, this is bound to happen one or twice.

Quade, I don't think the money was carried upstream either, but while you are pondering statistics... what are the odds of the money being found? I am astounded that even the placard was found.

I can't come up with a plausible expanation for the Ingrams having planted the money or being involved in any sort of scam, but the find has always struck me as odd. Evening picnic in January? Prepping sand for a campfire?

Nobody throws away that much money. I agree 100% with Quade on that.

As for Al's tale that Duane was trained to parachute specifically for Norjack that makes zero sense too. Why train a rookie? Find someone experienced. Also given Duanes long long history of dishonesty he is the last guy you'd select to handle such a large sum of money.

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[JamieCooper 0]

ill throw another suggestion in the mix.
not only was it to throw off would be pursuers, it was a message to Tina Mucklow, thus "tena bar" was purposly chosen.
would anyone know of any reports of a man in a tan trench/raincoat in that area on the night? or is there a tavern/bar near "tena bar", i ask because my fathers coat was reversible and he said he went to a bar after and drank and found a ride

this idea that no one throws away that much money? I saw my dad dump $1,000 in a night b4 just on drinks for strangers. i can see him doing it to prove he made it to Tina, and to rub it in that she could have had that money

whether you believe my father was "db" or not, I can guarantee he never knew he got away with it. it haunted him to the end. I use the name "Jamie" because it was just taken for granted, He would eventualy be caught.

[smokin99 0]

I guess anything's possible....I think the coincidence of Tina / Tena's bar has likely provoked a "hmmm" moment in many of us at least once.

Just wondering ...Has it ever been considered that maybe a large bird could have latched on some of the bundles and dropped them on the way to a nest? I know this sounds silly but I've read about some strange items found in eagles' nests.

but....A lie gets halfway around the world before the truth has a chance to get its pants on.....Winston Churchill

[377 21]

Quote

ill throw another suggestion in the mix.
not only was it to throw off would be pursuers, it was a message to Tina Mucklow, thus "tena bar" was purposly chosen.
would anyone know of any reports of a man in a tan trench/raincoat in that area on the night? or is there a tavern/bar near "tena bar", i ask because my fathers coat was reversible and he said he went to a bar after and drank and found a ride

this idea that no one throws away that much money? I saw my dad dump $1,000 in a night b4 just on drinks for strangers. i can see him doing it to prove he made it to Tina, and to rub it in that she could have had that money

Jamie,

This connection between Tena and Tina has been discussed before. I am surprised that it is taken seriously. If Cooper wanted to "prove" anything to Tina there were about a million better ways to do it besides finding a location within walking distance of his landing that had a name that sounded like Tina, dropping a few grand in the sand and hoping it would be found, turned in and that Tina would see the connection. Chances are that it if was found in good condition the money would be kept and/or spent. Tina would never have known.

As far as throwing money away... buying drinks for everyone at a bar isnt throwing it away. There is an immediate social benefit.

I really have a bias in favor of Cooper having survived the jump. I fully admit it. It makes me discount the money as evidence that he didnt survive the jump, but a rational person would see it for what it is. It isnt proof that Cooper cratered, but it sure favors that explanation over survival scenarios. I like to think the money or at least a portion of it got away from him during the jump. That way I can get around Quade's compelling logic that people (especially thieves) do not throw money away. He is right, they don't.

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[JamieCooper 0]

I'd like to read all of Tina Mucklows testimony.
I can't see anything short of a eye witness account proving how that money got there.
and even that would be questionable.

[JamieCooper 0]

Quote

Quote

ill throw another suggestion in the mix.
not only was it to throw off would be pursuers, it was a message to Tina Mucklow, thus "tena bar" was purposly chosen.
would anyone know of any reports of a man in a tan trench/raincoat in that area on the night? or is there a tavern/bar near "tena bar", i ask because my fathers coat was reversible and he said he went to a bar after and drank and found a ride

this idea that no one throws away that much money? I saw my dad dump $1,000 in a night b4 just on drinks for strangers. i can see him doing it to prove he made it to Tina, and to rub it in that she could have had that money

Jamie,

This connection between Tena and Tina has been discussed before. I am surprised that it is taken seriously. If Cooper wanted to "prove" anything to Tina there were about a million better ways to do it besides finding a location within walking distance of his landing that had a name that sounded like Tina, dropping a few grand in the sand and hoping it would be found, turned in and that Tina would see the connection. Chances are that it if was found in good condition the money would be kept and/or spent. Tina would never have known.

As far as throwing money away... buying drinks for everyone at a bar isnt throwing it away. There is an immediate social benefit.

I really have a bias in favor of Cooper having survived the jump. I fully admit it. It makes me discount the money as evidence that he didnt survive the jump, but a rational person would see it for what it is. It isnt proof that Cooper cratered, but it sure favors that explanation over survival scenarios. I like to think the money or at least a portion of it got away from him during the jump. That way I can get around Quade's compelling logic that people (especially thieves) do not throw money away. He is right, they don't.

377

I hear you but at the same time think, wouldn't many options been smarter in theory concerning norjack.
yet as it turns out, because of his just following instinct that he pulled it off.

[EVickiW 0]

Quote

Nobody throws away that much money.

No. Sometimes thieves throw even more money away. Read "Catch on the Mississippi"

https://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&pid=gmail&attid=0.1&thid=12c5d53d31cb6378&mt=application/pdf&url=https://mail.google.com/mail/?ui%3D2%26ik%3D6278d1bd1b%26view%3Datt%26th%3D12c5d53d31cb6378%26attid%3D0.1%26disp%3Dattd%26zw&sig=AHIEtbRdvb0Mk3pu0CN-xU51f-NDcHNZYA

Melvin Luther Wilson - Missing Person since September 1971:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=03QLnFvk8Fs

[Amazon 7]

Quote

Quote

ill throw another suggestion in the mix.
not only was it to throw off would be pursuers, it was a message to Tina Mucklow, thus "tena bar" was purposly chosen.
would anyone know of any reports of a man in a tan trench/raincoat in that area on the night? or is there a tavern/bar near "tena bar", i ask because my fathers coat was reversible and he said he went to a bar after and drank and found a ride

this idea that no one throws away that much money? I saw my dad dump $1,000 in a night b4 just on drinks for strangers. i can see him doing it to prove he made it to Tina, and to rub it in that she could have had that money

Jamie,

This connection between Tena and Tina has been discussed before. I am surprised that it is taken seriously. If Cooper wanted to "prove" anything to Tina there were about a million better ways to do it besides finding a location within walking distance of his landing that had a name that sounded like Tina, dropping a few grand in the sand and hoping it would be found, turned in and that Tina would see the connection. Chances are that it if was found in good condition the money would be kept and/or spent. Tina would never have known.

As far as throwing money away... buying drinks for everyone at a bar isnt throwing it away. There is an immediate social benefit.

I really have a bias in favor of Cooper having survived the jump. I fully admit it. It makes me discount the money as evidence that he didnt survive the jump, but a rational person would see it for what it is. It isnt proof that Cooper cratered, but it sure favors that explanation over survival scenarios. I like to think the money or at least a portion of it got away from him during the jump. That way I can get around Quade's compelling logic that people (especially thieves) do not throw money away. He is right, they don't.

377

Hey just think for a second.. could Tina have picked up the money at Tena Bar and started Tina's Bar in oh say... Battleground for that kind of 1971 money?

[JamieCooper 0]

i've personaly never to the area so maybe someone has can answer this?
is there any popular folklore in the area about db cooper?

[Amazon 7]

Quote

Quote

i've personaly never to the area so maybe someone has can answer this?
is there any popular folklore in the area about db cooper?

He's like Bigfoot here. Then there's the celebration each year in Ariel, WA on the Saturday after Thanksgiving. People come dressed like Cooper, or one of the stews maybe.

I was supposed to attend, but I stupidly thought it was the weekend AFTER Thanksgiving weekend. So I missed it. Well, next year is the 40th anniversary and I will certainly be there.

That should be an epic party


I am going to try to get Mike the DZO from Toledo involved since he is pretty local to the area for some demo jumps.

Better book an RV space REALLLLY soon

[skyjack71 0]

The Palmer Report expressly states the money was NOT in the water all of that time.

All tests prove the money was not in water from 1971 to 1980.

Tena's bar and Tina have NO connection.

The Palmer report and the testing of the money support the fact that the Money was protected for most of those 8 yrs.

Until 1996 NO one ever came up with an explanationg that explained the money found in Feb of 1980...not until Jo Weber contacted the FBI and she told about Duane throwing a bag into the Columbia behind the Red Lion which is at the Foot of the old I-5 bridge on the Vancouver side of the Columbia, just a short distance from Tena's bar.

The woman who called the FBI in 1996 had NO knowledge of the crime other than the first few chapters of a fictional book about Cooper. She had NO knowledge the money may have been elsewhere for several yrs. NONE of that had ever been disclosed to the public - NOTE, I don't even know if the Palmer Report is public yet or not.

You guys are talking elementary stuff now - anyone who knows what they are talking about refuses to keep rehashing all of this. All of the 10's of thousand posts and all of the research done by intelligent individuals who did their home work and spent many yrs and lots of money on research, has just been tossed out of the plane door for a BOOK and to satisfy individuals who cannot take the time to do their own research nor invest the money.

Note how many are NOT posting?
Unbelievable - the DZ in History and Trivia has become a BLOG - it now consists of a writer who is promoting his book and a man who claimes Cooper was only 28 yrs old in 1971.

Also NOTE that I - Jo Weber, the woman who claims my husband was DAN COOPER does not endorse the theory or story told by Al Caretaker or whatever you guys wish to call him.

Below is the only part of his story that I could validate and that DOES not support most of the things he says. As with you guys I listen and I banter and explore, but enough is enough.

This has become ridiculous and all of the work done by others is being TOTALLY ignored. This is NO longer History and Trivia - it has become a BLOG where NOTHING is impossible including Cooper being 28 yrs old..

Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber

[JamieCooper 0]

oh cmon now Im also saying where I last saw the briefcase full of incr7minating evidence and explained a previously unsolved murder in which the casefile may have prints proving db cooper was my father
im attaching a pic of the house i saw the briefcase hidden in the attic of in 1982
someone should get a search warrant!

db coopers age was estimated, not fact! at least accept that

[skyjack71 0]

REGARDING - CARETAKER or KNOSS: Restating my Stand on this:

THE STORY I HAVE STAYED AWAY FROM, BUT MAYBE NOW IS THE TIME to just DO IT and GET THE JOB DONE!


What I have always been told NOT to repeat because I would be called a lunatic, but I have been called worse for trying to do it their way!


There have been things about Caretaker's story I have NOT been able to let go of and others I discount only because I thought they were off the wall...does NOT mean they are NOT true.


Since the ex-wife was still alive and I had been communicating with her, the first thing I did was get on the phone and ask her about this! She admitted they were in the Bloominton area, but only for a few wks. She told me they were only there for about 6 wks and she didn't think it was important.

Caretaker went out and took pictures of apts - and I sent those to her, but she said they had been so many places and an apt was just a stop in the road for them. She was unable to identify the apts - I still have those pictures.

She claimed she did NOT meet Duane's friends as he did not bring them around her. Also she told me about individuals in other areas (not Bloomington) who would pick Duane up at their home and they would be gone for a wk-end, a wk or 2 and on
ocassion for 4-6 wks. He never discussed what he did, but sent her money. He always left the vehicle with her.

Caretaker insisted it was while he was supposed to be in prison.

Caretaker had them there 6 months earlier, but the ex-wife also put she and Duane at a specific Government function while he was in prison...so that also was cause to pause and think. Therefore the exact date of this 6 wks in MN is unknown to me...sometime between 1966 and 1968 perhaps even when John Collins was in Jefferson.

Caretaker was earnest in what he told me and at that time I had few resources to rely on... I do believe he knew Duane and the ex-wife and the story he told me gave me reason to puzzle over this for many yrs.

Caretaker knows that I did NOT agree with some of the things he told me and I thought they were pretty far out. After the FBI lied to me more than once - his story made more sense to me, but also I was looking for answers and this presented more questions than it did answers.

The Caretaker like eveyone else involved in the Cooper case has made changes to their stories and stories do evolve over the yrs...when information is proven or disproven. Sometimes it is the ability to recall more details (such as remembering the stop at Hataway Park on my trip to WA).

The specifics Caretaker gave me about those wks at the apts has not changed other than his naming some of the characters. HE HAS never changed his basic story about what occured at that complex.

He contacted me out of compassion regarding my own struggle to find the truth and came forward. So far this has brought him nothing, but grief as it has me.

This is the part of Caretaker's story I know to be true! I care about what happens to him as I do others who have came forward with infomation at risk to themselves.

One man contacted me about Duane's involvement during those same yrs in N.O. A heart wrenching experience that forever altered Duane's life and the lives of the only family he had known until that time. What happened in N.O. only added fuel to the fire - a need for revenge.

It has always been my gut feeling that perhaps such a plan may have been made in the late sixties, but deep sixed. What happened in N.O. may have been the motivation for Weber to have gone out and committed the crime on his own in 1971.

Did Cooper have an accomplice?
Yes, I think so and I think I know the motive. I have spelled it out many times...but NO one wants to believe it was that simple.

Think about this. If someone was trained to commit a skyjacking and it was cancelled. Then the government reneges on promises made to certain individuals - how would they react? The government trains a low life in prison to "do the job" and then pull it out from under him. The government did NOT keep its promise to him and his records were NOT esponged along with the promised payment - so they "do the job" on their own.

Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber

[JamieCooper 0]

Quote

REGARDING - CARETAKER or KNOSS: Restating my Stand on this:
[skyjack71] said in part

Think about this. If someone was trained to commit a skyjacking and it was cancelled. Then the government reneges on promises made to certain individuals - how would they react? The government trains a low life in prison to "do the job" and then pull it out from under him. The government did NOT keep its promise to him and his records were NOT esponged along with the promised payment - so they "do the job" on their own.

if this was the case, it would have been a snap to locate and convict all who were involved or at least manufacture a patsy
theres nothing simple about any part of your story