Robert99 37
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georger 197
QuoteFellows, stick to one thing at a time. If Cooper's seat number is never determined and the "fake crab angle" issue resolved, then this hijacking will never be solved. Right?
Introducing all these new issues will overpower the capability of the people on the thread.
where have you been!
That happned two-three-four years ago?
georger 197
The discrepancy was 2.5 nautical miles when abeam of the Toutle symbol. The above numbers can explain about 2.0 to 2.25 nautical miles of the discrepancy.
.
.
Which may be within the standard deviation for
points on the maps themselves?
Hominid 0
QuoteApparently as the charts were updated for the WGS84 coordinate system, the area around Toutle was changed (expanded?) more than other areas on the FBI map and that gave the visual impression, when considering nearby landmarks, that things hadn't changed at all. But the longitude and latitude changes seems to be the source of the discrepancy.
Looking at the two charts, in the Toutle area, it is obvious that the Toutle circle moved with respect to nearby landmarks, namely the river courses.
Robert99 37
Quote
The discrepancy was 2.5 nautical miles when abeam of the Toutle symbol. The above numbers can explain about 2.0 to 2.25 nautical miles of the discrepancy.
.
Which may be within the standard deviation for
points on the maps themselves?
True. And if anyone thinks they know the location of Cooper's jump zone, they need to specify where the information came from and who plotted the nonsense.
CDRINF 1
MAKE IT STOP! MAKE IT STOP!!! FOR GOD'S SAKE MAKE IT STOP!!!!!!
Robert99 37
QuoteQuoteApparently as the charts were updated for the WGS84 coordinate system, the area around Toutle was changed (expanded?) more than other areas on the FBI map and that gave the visual impression, when considering nearby landmarks, that things hadn't changed at all. But the longitude and latitude changes seems to be the source of the discrepancy.
Looking at the two charts, in the Toutle area, it is obvious that the Toutle circle moved with respect to nearby landmarks, namely the river courses.
You and I must not be looking at the same maps. Or maybe we just have different experience levels of what maps represent and how they are produced.
Farflung 0
After further review of your post I realized how far I ran with your initial question Robert99.
The perfect storm was churning with a cross contamination of terrestrial city names and airway intersection names (MALAY and TOUTL) combined with your reference of the NAD and WGS correction datum. I believe there are 48 or 49 people who are aware of NAD and they are all related. So I jumped to the conclusion that you were modeling the Victor airway environment in some GIS. Then I went ape shit with that assumption.
The mere mention of comparing NAD and WGS steered me to the conclusion that you had removed those corrections in both files and you were using the LAT/LONG from the FAA to plot the navaid’s positions in the flat file. Then I figured you digitized the Victor Airways from the ’71 and later file (separate layers) to discover some data contention between the two Mayfield and Toutle airway intersections. Am I getting far enough in left field yet?
So then I figure, like I know what the hell I’m doing, that you had not made any isogonic corrections to the VORTAC compass rose which included the 3 degree delta from the SEA VORTAC at 64 DME which would have induced a 3 NMI ambiguity ellipse at Mayfield and Toutle intersections (what are the freakin odds?). Viola, just add the magnetic corrections and align both files on WGS84 and you should be good to go. Or so I thought.
You can imagine my embarrassment to discover you referenced the town of Toutle and not the airway intersection. With that in mind, I’m blaming fatigue combined with an alien abduction and probing, rather than taking personal responsibility for the lack of reading comprehension.
The perfect storm was churning with a cross contamination of terrestrial city names and airway intersection names (MALAY and TOUTL) combined with your reference of the NAD and WGS correction datum. I believe there are 48 or 49 people who are aware of NAD and they are all related. So I jumped to the conclusion that you were modeling the Victor airway environment in some GIS. Then I went ape shit with that assumption.
The mere mention of comparing NAD and WGS steered me to the conclusion that you had removed those corrections in both files and you were using the LAT/LONG from the FAA to plot the navaid’s positions in the flat file. Then I figured you digitized the Victor Airways from the ’71 and later file (separate layers) to discover some data contention between the two Mayfield and Toutle airway intersections. Am I getting far enough in left field yet?
So then I figure, like I know what the hell I’m doing, that you had not made any isogonic corrections to the VORTAC compass rose which included the 3 degree delta from the SEA VORTAC at 64 DME which would have induced a 3 NMI ambiguity ellipse at Mayfield and Toutle intersections (what are the freakin odds?). Viola, just add the magnetic corrections and align both files on WGS84 and you should be good to go. Or so I thought.
You can imagine my embarrassment to discover you referenced the town of Toutle and not the airway intersection. With that in mind, I’m blaming fatigue combined with an alien abduction and probing, rather than taking personal responsibility for the lack of reading comprehension.
Robert99 37
QuoteAfter further review of your post I realized how far I ran with your initial question Robert99.
The perfect storm was churning with a cross contamination of terrestrial city names and airway intersection names (MALAY and TOUTL) combined with your reference of the NAD and WGS correction datum. I believe there are 48 or 49 people who are aware of NAD and they are all related. So I jumped to the conclusion that you were modeling the Victor airway environment in some GIS. Then I went ape shit with that assumption.
The mere mention of comparing NAD and WGS steered me to the conclusion that you had removed those corrections in both files and you were using the LAT/LONG from the FAA to plot the navaid’s positions in the flat file. Then I figured you digitized the Victor Airways from the ’71 and later file (separate layers) to discover some data contention between the two Mayfield and Toutle airway intersections. Am I getting far enough in left field yet?
So then I figure, like I know what the hell I’m doing, that you had not made any isogonic corrections to the VORTAC compass rose which included the 3 degree delta from the SEA VORTAC at 64 DME which would have induced a 3 NMI ambiguity ellipse at Mayfield and Toutle intersections (what are the freakin odds?). Viola, just add the magnetic corrections and align both files on WGS84 and you should be good to go. Or so I thought.
You can imagine my embarrassment to discover you referenced the town of Toutle and not the airway intersection. With that in mind, I’m blaming fatigue combined with an alien abduction and probing, rather than taking personal responsibility for the lack of reading comprehension.
Huh?
georger 197
Looking at the two charts, in the Toutle area, it is obvious that the Toutle circle moved with respect to nearby landmarks, namely the river courses.
The moment Toutle came up my detector went off -
Toutle, Toutle Lake, the Olde Toutle, the Newe Toutle.
How many Toutles are there? Did one close and
another open up? Is it a group of villages - the
Toutle Group ?
I dunno. But Ive heard references to all of the above during my life.
Blevins? Do you know. You live in Washington!
JT?
Hominid 0
You're right. I'm looking at an '08 sectional from Sluggo's (which is slightly tilted) and I'm looking at the original flight path plot from the FBI. Maybe your 09 sectional doesn't show rivers and highways? I've reproduced bits of the two charts below. In each, the little circle represents Toutle location.
georger 197
There is no black and white answer, and Farflung's theory is no better than mine.
You have two chutes in front of you. You know SOMETHING about putting one on and using it. Which do you pick?
You could say it was an eenie-meenie-miney-mo choice...or you could say a moment of thought went into a decision that meant LIFE OR DEATH.
Chances are, Cooper at least considered which one to use. If he was military, the military chute was the obvious choice. If he was a sport jumper, he might not have known that the NB-6 was actually a better choice, and may have picked the sport. Hard to say. His lack of choice on the sport makes me think Cooper either had limited sport experience, no sport, or military only.
Having the NB-6 delivered, as I said, could have been sheer luck for Cooper.
There is no way to prove your point any better than mine. Random choice? Or bit of thought first before reaching for one of them?
Because of the life and death thing, I vote 'bit of thought'.
You have two chutes in front of you. You know SOMETHING about putting one on and using it. Which do you pick?
You could say it was an eenie-meenie-miney-mo choice...or you could say a moment of thought went into a decision that meant LIFE OR DEATH.
Chances are, Cooper at least considered which one to use. If he was military, the military chute was the obvious choice. If he was a sport jumper, he might not have known that the NB-6 was actually a better choice, and may have picked the sport. Hard to say. His lack of choice on the sport makes me think Cooper either had limited sport experience, no sport, or military only.
Having the NB-6 delivered, as I said, could have been sheer luck for Cooper.
There is no way to prove your point any better than mine. Random choice? Or bit of thought first before reaching for one of them?
Because of the life and death thing, I vote 'bit of thought'.
well, Farflungs theory of evidence is better than
yours because he has a different higher standard
for proof than you have, and for what he will accept
as a "causal connection".
You dont appear to know the difference.
What you would supposedly know and supposedly
do (you say) is not an adequate model for what
and who Cooper was, and nobody who knows the
difference is going to take you seriously on this no
matter how many times and how many years you
state your claims.
Sorry, but that just the way it is -
Hominid 0
Quote
How many Toutles are there? Did one close and
another open up? Is it a group of villages - the
Toutle Group ?
I dunno. But Ive heard references to all of the above during my life.
Blevins? Do you know. You live in Washington!
JT?
Georger,
I don't know if you were jesting or not. Farflung explained it in his recent post. If I understand correctly, the Toutle on the old chart marked a rail stop that is no longer used. I think probably just the official location of "Toutle" changed. Still people living around the old location.
georger 197
Georger,
I don't know if you were jesting or not. Farflung explained it in his post. If I understand correctly, the Toutle on the old chart marked a rail stop that is no longer used. I think probably just the official location of "Toutle" changed. Still people living around the old location.
I don't know if you were jesting or not. Farflung explained it in his post. If I understand correctly, the Toutle on the old chart marked a rail stop that is no longer used. I think probably just the official location of "Toutle" changed. Still people living around the old location.
Precisely and yes Ive been reading everyone's
posts. Farflungs included. I am suggesting the same
thing. As evidenced by "Toutle Lake" vs Old Toutle
vs New Toutle. My family made those references.
They were residents of Oregon and Washington
in the 1970s amd 80s and it meant something to
them, apparently. Several members of my extended
family hunted that area and knew the guys who
found the placard -
I am suggesting JT might know something about
the history of Toutle - his wife might - residents of
Toutle would and several of them used to read this
forum.
Moreover, there is some level of standard error in
these old FBI pre-gps maps; I doubt that has
anything to do with the position of Toutle as an
issue of historical changes (railroad line closings
and whatnot). There are millions of example of
towns and villages closing/moving due to railroad
decisions.
I dont think Robt99 is suggesting the FP is off due
to a wholesale shift in the whole map the FBI used
including V23, as evidenced by different locations for
Toutle. This only concerns Toutle(s) - not V23 or the
FP.
However, anyone wishing to place the placard with
respect to Toutle should be advised of a difference
in positions, 1971 vs now. Surely Himmelsbach a
longtime resident of the area knew Toutle Lake vs
Toutle ?
???
Introducing all these new issues will overpower the capability of the people on the thread.
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