DB Cooper

[Robert99 37]

45 minutes ago, FLYJACK said:

I found it in Himmelsbach book...   GG probably got it from there...

It isn't in the Lysne's FBI 302.. not sure if this is accurate or a manufactured narrative.

Cooper also told Tina later that he knew the 727 could be flown with the stairs down.  So it seems logical that Cooper would be looking for a 727.  Also, the 727 had only started being used on that flight about three months earlier.  It appears that Cooper was just checking to make sure a 727 was being used on the flight that day as mentioned in the airline publications. 

[FLYJACK 654]

1 hour ago, Robert99 said:

Cooper also told Tina later that he knew the 727 could be flown with the stairs down.  So it seems logical that Cooper would be looking for a 727.  Also, the 727 had only started being used on that flight about three months earlier.  It appears that Cooper was just checking to make sure a 727 was being used on the flight that day as mentioned in the airline publications. 

The dialogue in the Himmelsbach book seems made up... 

It may be true that Cooper asked if it was a 727 but we don't have a primary source. Lysne's 302 doesn't say it.. is there another unreleased Lysne 302??

If he didn't ask, then how did he know it was a 727.. Did he do a dry run..  or was the type of plane publicized somewhere back then..

[olemisscub 466]

1 hour ago, FLYJACK said:

The dialogue in the Himmelsbach book seems made up... 

It may be true that Cooper asked if it was a 727 but we don't have a primary source. Lysne's 302 doesn't say it.. is there another unreleased Lysne 302??

If he didn't ask, then how did he know it was a 727.. Did he do a dry run..  or was the type of plane publicized somewhere back then..

 

[FLYJACK 654]

20 minutes ago, olemisscub said:

 

Where was that from, was it readily accessible..  the regular timetable doesn't show the plane.

[olemisscub 466]

9 minutes ago, FLYJACK said:

Where was that from, was it readily accessible..  the regular timetable doesn't show the plane.

NWA has all of their old timetables online. Unfortunately, none from 1971. That one is from 1970. However, there is no reason to think that it would be any different in 71 since the ones from 70 and 72 look the same. 

https://northwestairlineshistory.org/wp-content/uploads/2020/04/NW-schedule-1970-07-01.pdf

https://northwestairlineshistory.org/timetables-northwest/

[FLYJACK 654]

4 minutes ago, olemisscub said:

NWA has all of their old timetables online. Unfortunately, none from 1971. That one is from 1970. However, there is no reason to think that it would be any different in 71 since the ones from 70 and 72 look the same. 

https://northwestairlineshistory.org/wp-content/uploads/2020/04/NW-schedule-1970-07-01.pdf

https://northwestairlineshistory.org/timetables-northwest/

That is what I thought, the "System Timetable" has it,, the regular local timetable does not.

So, how prevalent was the system timetable..  in other words, the system timetable was available nationwide but the regular one was local. 

 

 

[olemisscub 466]

Just now, FLYJACK said:

That is what I thought, the "System Timetable" has it,, the regular local timetable does not.

So, how prevalent was the system timetable..  in other words, the system timetable was available nationwide but the regular one was local. 

 

 

On the website they look like items you could pick up at the airport, like little pamphlets. 

[olemisscub 466]

Sounds familiar perhaps. From July 72 Cooper Copycat attempt.  "Nothing funny or I'll do the job"...."No fuss"

 

 

Edited February 3, 2023 by olemisscub

[FLYJACK 654]

2 minutes ago, olemisscub said:

On the website they look like items you could pick up at the airport, like little pamphlets. 

Yes, but the "System Timetable" was nationally available whereas the regular one was local.

In other words,, if Cooper was in say Philadelphia, Boston or New York City he could pick up a "System Timetable" showing a 727 for flight 305. It means that Cooper could have known flight 305 used a 727 from any NWA serviced airport.

[olemisscub 466]

3 minutes ago, FLYJACK said:

Yes, but the "System Timetable" was nationally available whereas the regular one was local.

In other words,, if Cooper was in say Philadelphia, Boston or New York City he could pick up a "System Timetable" showing a 727 for flight 305. It means that Cooper could have known flight 305 used a 727 from any NWA serviced airport.

Correct. He could have presumably picked up that schedule from any airport with an NWA station in it. I need to ask Mac how he knew that his flight was going to be a 727.  

Edited February 3, 2023 by olemisscub

[FLYJACK 654]

1 hour ago, olemisscub said:

Correct. He could have presumably picked up that schedule from any airport with an NWA station in it. I need to ask Mac how he knew that his flight was going to be a 727.  

Found something..

In the 1970 System Timetable...

 

but in the 1973 System Timetable..

 

So, the format changed between 1970 and 1973... but both indicate a 727 for flight 305

[olemisscub 466]

3 minutes ago, FLYJACK said:

 

So, the format changed between 1970 and 1973... but both indicate a 727 for flight 305

McNally is a hell of a resource. Funny too.

 

[FLYJACK 654]

18 minutes ago, FLYJACK said:

Found something..

In the 1970 System Timetable...

 

but in the 1973 System Timetable..

 

So, the format changed between 1970 and 1973... but both indicate a 727 for flight 305

Found a NWA System Timetable dated October 1, 1971 and it uses the later (1973) format.. not the 1970 format.

Hard to read but it does show flight 305 is a 727 and lists Portland to Seattle.

[FLYJACK 654]

26 minutes ago, olemisscub said:

McNally is a hell of a resource. Funny too.

 

Was St Louis the closest Airport to where he was living at the time?

[CooperNWO305 146]

10 minutes ago, FLYJACK said:

Found a NWA System Timetable dated October 1, 1971 and it uses the later (1973) format.. not the 1970 format.

Hard to read but it does show flight 305 is a 727 and lists Portland to Seattle.

If he had picked up August of 71 he would not have seen 305 was a 727, at least from the one I have. But in October he would have. 

[olemisscub 466]

7 minutes ago, FLYJACK said:

Was St Louis the closest Airport to where he was living at the time?

He was living in Detroit, so definitely not. 

[FLYJACK 654]

4 minutes ago, olemisscub said:

He was living in Detroit, so definitely not. 

He drove 8 hours to St.Louis..  sounds odd..

[olemisscub 466]

8 minutes ago, FLYJACK said:

He drove 8 hours to St.Louis..  sounds odd..

I'll have to ask him if he got the schedule during his first attempt. He went to St. Louis the first time and was spotted in the airport by a Navy buddy, so he had to come back a month later during the next new moon. 

[olemisscub 466]

25 minutes ago, FLYJACK said:

He drove 8 hours to St.Louis..  sounds odd..

 

[olemisscub 466]

I'd add that he scoped out closer airports like O'Hare in Chicago and also Indianapolis but they had metal detectors. St. Louis did not yet have them. 

[Math of Insects 96]

1 hour ago, olemisscub said:

I'd add that he scoped out closer airports like O'Hare in Chicago and also Indianapolis but they had metal detectors. St. Louis did not yet have them. 

Ironic, since is there anything more metal than hijacking a plane just because you can?

[Robert99 37]

9 hours ago, Robert99 said:

Cooper also told Tina later that he knew the 727 could be flown with the stairs down.  So it seems logical that Cooper would be looking for a 727.  Also, the 727 had only started being used on that flight about three months earlier.  It appears that Cooper was just checking to make sure a 727 was being used on the flight that day as mentioned in the airline publications. 

Here is the story about flight schedules for EVERY airline in the USA in the 1971 time frame.  And I used these things regularly.

Aviation navigational publications, including schedules, were updated every eight weeks (or 56 days).  All of these airline schedules included airline, flight number, cities served, times, days of operation, aircraft used, and other such information.  This entire information was published in a large NY telephone size book that was available at every travel agent, airline ticket office, libraries, and elsewhere.  The airlines would then publish and distribute their own schedules throughout their system.

In the 1970 NWA schedule for flight 305, I do not see Portland, Oregon being mentioned although the aircraft was listed as a 727.  So to correct my earlier statement quoted above, it was NWA 305 service to Portland that was apparently started about October 1971.  Cooper would have access to any of the schedule sources mentioned above and noticed that the aircraft used on 305 was normally a 727.  But sometimes the usual aircraft would be unavailable and other designs would be substituted.

Cooper was just checking with the ticket agent to verify that a 727 was inbound to Portland as NWA 305.  And it was.  Cooper knew that the 727 had been tested with the aft stairs lowered and that parachutists had jumped from those aft stairs.  He had other information appropriate to the 727 but he did not have all of the information necessary to operate the aft stairs.    

[FLYJACK 654]

7 hours ago, Robert99 said:

Here is the story about flight schedules for EVERY airline in the USA in the 1971 time frame.  And I used these things regularly.

Aviation navigational publications, including schedules, were updated every eight weeks (or 56 days).  All of these airline schedules included airline, flight number, cities served, times, days of operation, aircraft used, and other such information.  This entire information was published in a large NY telephone size book that was available at every travel agent, airline ticket office, libraries, and elsewhere.  The airlines would then publish and distribute their own schedules throughout their system.

In the 1970 NWA schedule for flight 305, I do not see Portland, Oregon being mentioned although the aircraft was listed as a 727.  So to correct my earlier statement quoted above, it was NWA 305 service to Portland that was apparently started about October 1971.  Cooper would have access to any of the schedule sources mentioned above and noticed that the aircraft used on 305 was normally a 727.  But sometimes the usual aircraft would be unavailable and other designs would be substituted.

Cooper was just checking with the ticket agent to verify that a 727 was inbound to Portland as NWA 305.  And it was.  Cooper knew that the 727 had been tested with the aft stairs lowered and that parachutists had jumped from those aft stairs.  He had other information appropriate to the 727 but he did not have all of the information necessary to operate the aft stairs.    

July 1970 has Portland and 305..

https://northwestairlineshistory.org/wp-content/uploads/2020/04/NW-schedule-1970-07-01.pdf

 

[FLYJACK 654]

FBI part #79 up..  Lots of useless pages and a bunch of suspects named..

https://vault.fbi.gov/D-B-Cooper /d.b.cooper-part-79/view

[olemisscub 466]

18 minutes ago, FLYJACK said:

FBI part #79 up..  Lots of useless pages and a bunch of suspects named..

https://vault.fbi.gov/D-B-Cooper /d.b.cooper-part-79/view

Holy smokes, that's the worst Vault drop in many years. 

I suppose the only notable piece in there is that we got confirmation that they took elimination prints from the crew (although that was always a bit of a "duh, of course they did" thing)