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Unfortunately, Georger still has the timeline wrong. 

Cooper did NOT attempt to tip when he actually got his drink and the change.

 

Flo discussed the drink, payment and return of change to Cooper, she never mentioned a tip attempted or otherwise.

flodrinknotip.jpeg.f0379573d2208a969b87b9b2213f3c5d.jpeg

 

Flo recalled events in chronological order, she mentioned that Cooper tried to offer money from the drink change to ALL stews after Flo handled the bag of money.

flotipmoneyclaim.jpeg.19e79a2d37799f8c57eb50b407cade4b.jpeg

 

Tina claimed at one time Cooper tried to give money from his pockets to ALL the stews.

"He opened the bag and inspected the contents which Miss MUCKLOW said she observed was money packed in small packages with bank-type bands around each package.  Having inspected the money in a cursory fashion, the hijacker stated that “it looked okay” and then indicated to Miss MUCKLOW that the crew could now permit the passengers to deplane. She stated that she called the cockpit on the intercom with this message and an announcement was made from the cockpit that passengers at that time could disembark. Miss MUCKLOW  recalled that she, in attempt to be humorous, stated to the hijacker while the passengers were unloading that there was obviously alot of money in the bag she wondered if she could have some. The hijacker immediately agreed with her suggestion and took one package of the money, denominations unrecalled by Miss MUCKLOW, and handed it to her. She returned the money, stating to the hijacker that she was not permitted to accept gratuities or words to that effect. In this connection Miss MUCKLOW recalled that at one time during the flight the hijacker had pulled some single bills from his pocket and attempted to tip all the girls on the crew. Again they declined in compliance with company policy."

 

The point here is that these stories are both incompatible and unbelievable. 

 

Cooper did NOT attempt a tip when he actually got his drink and the change. (At terminal)

Flo indicated the attempted tip was after the money was delivered.

Why would Cooper tip all the stews later from drink change? $6 each??

It is hard to believe Tina would ask for ransom money, take it then hand it back claiming they can't accept gratuities.. Ransom money isn't a gratuity and she asked for it.

 

One or both of these stories is false... they are incompatible. 

 

The theory is the tip refusal stories were an embellishment to cover for Cooper offering them all money and one or more of them may have taken it.

 

 

 

 

 

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I think it's time to consult Tom Kaye again on this question regarding the number of bundles actually discovered. From the Citizen Sleuths site:

'In February 1980 the Ingram family was preparing to build a campfire along the Columbia River at a site called Tena Bar. While digging a fire pit, nine year old son Brian Ingram, uncovered three bundles of twenty dollar bills from the Cooper hijacking...'

Kaye's team had a lot of interaction with the FBI. Maybe they know something we don't. As far as an agent claiming only one bundle was found...it is possible he just didn't want...or was told not...to reveal details. 

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2 minutes ago, RobertMBlevins said:

I think it's time to consult Tom Kaye again on this question regarding the number of bundles actually discovered. From the Citizen Sleuths site:

'In February 1980 the Ingram family was preparing to build a campfire along the Columbia River at a site called Tena Bar. While digging a fire pit, nine year old son Brian Ingram, uncovered three bundles of twenty dollar bills from the Cooper hijacking...'

Kaye's team had a lot of interaction with the FBI. Maybe they know something we don't. As far as an agent claiming only one bundle was found...it is possible he just didn't want...or was told not...to reveal details. 

3 packets (100 bills/packet) were found, some incorrectly refer to them as bundles.

packets banded together constitute a bundle.

One bundle is a group of packets.

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BTW.. It was Flo who served the drink at the Portland terminal. Not Tina.

I can't find any indication by Flo or anyone that Cooper tried to tip when he received the change from that drink. Flo's account of her serving the drink and returning the change has no mention of any attempted tip.

Cooper was offered free drinks later, he refused.

The claim is that at sometime later Cooper randomly pulled the drink change money from his pocket and offered it to the ALL the stews ($6 each?) but they refused citing company policy.. 

Tina never actually stated a time. Flo mentioned it as AFTER the ransom money was on the plane.

 

Goerger is confused again,,, "Serenity Now"

Edited by FLYJACK

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First, let me say that I have sent a copy of the article to Tom Kaye and quoted him from his website, asking him to help straighten this out. 

Second, the FBI agent being interviewed claims between $1,000-$3,000 was found...a figure we know not to be true. 

Third, it is my understanding that the money was prepared by making note of the serial numbers via a Recordak machine, and then hastily assembled in slightly varying amounts using rubber bands. To get to cases here, I'm *reasonably* sure this is how the scenario went:

SeaFirst Bank has this money sitting on a shelf in one of their vaults, allegedly set aside for just such emergencies. 

This money, like banks do, was packaged with paper bands, with an equal amount (at least in the twenty-dollar stacks) in each package. I would guess one hundred twenty dollar bills each. 

The paper bands would have to be removed in order to do Recordak on the bills. 

The bills are microfilmed and then quickly assembled into packets using rubber bands, with varying amounts in each packet, and then tossed into a bank bag. (There would be no need to recount the bills, once the proper amount ($200,000) was certified by the bank as the amount they released for the ransom.) So once they come out of the Recordak, they can be tossed together and rubber-banded. 

These bundles are delivered to the airport. I do not see where anyone would have time to insert paper bands AGAIN over these bundles. Everyone that evening was in one big damn hurry to get that money to the airport. It not only had to be recorded, but assembled, packed away, and then the State Patrol delivered the money to SeaTac. Remember too...running 10,000 different documents (the bills) through a Recordak takes time. It has an automatic camera system, usually 16 or 35mm microfilm. You feed in your stuff, snap snap snap the camera takes pictures and reduces the images to the microfilm. 

I don't believe there is a separate category here between 'packets' and 'bundles'. I think when Cooper looked into the bag, what he saw was roughly a hundred packets of slightly varying sizes, all with rubber bands holding them together. Why would anyone bother to take the time to take these packets and wrap more rubber bands around them, securing several of them together? It doesn't make sense. They almost certainly were taking them from the Recordak, putting the bills back together by hand as quickly as possible...and then tossing the rubber-banded result into the bank bag. 

When they went through all 10,000 bills, someone grabbed the bank bag, handed it to the State Patrol officers, and probably told them to get to the NWA counter at SeaTac, and do it Code 3. (lights and siren) 

Edited by RobertMBlevins

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2 minutes ago, RobertMBlevins said:

First, let me say that I have sent a copy of the article to Tom Kaye and quoted him from his website, asking him to help straighten this out. 

Second, the FBI agent being interviewed claims between $1,000-$3,000 was found...a figure we know not to be true. 

Third, it is my understanding that the money was prepared by making note of the serial numbers via a Recordak machine, and then hastily assembled in slightly varying amounts using rubber bands. To get to cases here, I'm *reasonably* sure this is how the scenario went:

SeaFirst Bank has this money sitting on a shelf in one of their vaults, allegedly set aside for just such emergencies. 

This money, like banks do, was packaged with paper bands, with an equal amount (at least in the twenty-dollar stacks) in each package. I would guess one hundred twenty dollar bills each. 

The paper bands would have to be removed in order to do Recordak on the bills. 

The bills are microfilmed and then quickly assembled into packets using rubber bands, with varying amounts in each packet, and then tossed into a bank bag. 

These bundles are delivered to the airport. I do not see where anyone would have time to insert paper bands AGAIN over these bundles. Everyone that evening was in one big damn hurry to get that money to the airport. It not only had to be recorded, but assembled, packed away, and then the State Patrol delivered the money to SeaTac. Remember too...running 10,000 different documents (the bills) through a Recordak takes time. 

Nope, the bills were recorded well before NORJAK via the Recordak machine. They were in packets (also called straps) of 100 bills with bank bands and rubber banded into random bundles for Cooper. So a bundle would have a random number of packets. 

Cooper received random sized rubber banded bundles of packets (100 bills each).

The three packets found on TBAR didn't go to Cooper independently, they were rubber banded in a bundle.

The real question is,, how did the money go to Cooper in bundles and end up in three packets on TBAR. 

They had to have been separated by someone at some time or they landed as one bundle and as the rubber bands deteriorated the three packets separated slightly.

The old argument that they had to arrive in a container to land close but separate is a red herring.

If they landed as one rubber banded bundle (containing packets), the means by which they could have arrived opens up.

 

 

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*Robert reaches for the Excedrin again...as he has done occasionally while talking about Tina Bar...*

Oh, brother. 

You know what? How about this:  I just don't know the answers to some of these questions. B| There are sooo many different sources out there. Some say they ran the money through on the evening of the hijacking. Some don't. I have seen your FBI document about the microfilm, but it doesn't say who did the recording or exactly when they did. The when is not there, and the who is blanked out. 

I dunno....maybe it's like Martin Sheen said (paraphrased) in Apocalypse Now:

Quote

"There was so much bullshit in Vietnam (Cooper case) that you needed wings to stay above it..."

EDIT: Just read a message from Amanda at Expedition Unknown. Nice message. She understands about the 'rifts' between AB of Seattle and our own supporters, and another group I won't mention. I told her it was no problem. If necessary, yes...we could work with these people. Truth is I'm not even sure I want to get involved with more media right now. I will if they ask, but I'm not going to go hunting for it. I think I have done more than my share with the media and boy am I busy right now. I sent her off to the usual three places we house our Cooper stuff on the internet. WordPress, Quora, and the DB Cooper Info Page at AB. Said that's where we keep all our stuff anyway and use whatever she wants. Blanket license ok'd. 

EDIT: Just heard...yes...bills recorded prior to hijacking. Okay. 

Edited by RobertMBlevins

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Loose ends,,

FBI doc above,, Flo began serving drinks while the plane was at the Portland terminal. Cooper was first.

 

Cooper retrieved notes and the matchbook, he was wary of fingerprints. Would he later pull small bills from his pocket and hand them to all the stews giving them his prints? 

 

Occam's razor,, we know two people handled the ransom money after it went onto the plane,, we also know that one of them went to a facility a few miles upstream of TBAR in the late 70's. Finally, we know that 3 packets of bills matching the ransom money was discovered a few years later on TBAR.

 

Recordak - There were actually two Recordak recordings done.

The first was well before NORJAK, $250,000 was recorded $230,000 in $20's and the rest in $10's. We know this for sure because the micro given to the FBI contained all of the $250,000 including the 10's. The FBI had to use a sketchy method to determine the bills that went to Cooper vs the ones not given to Cooper. The 10's were easy but the bank only had the start and stop bill for the 15 packets left behind ($30 grand). The process to create the ransom bill list was not an active recording of those bills, but it was a deduction of bills not taken based on only 15 pairs of bill numbers. 15 packets.

There were 15 packets of the bank stash left behind and the bank quickly created a new "emergency stash" after NORJAK of $300,000 incorporating those 1500 bills. Another Recordak micro was done. The FBI contacted the bank claiming that they were having difficulty sorting out the ransom list from the original micro. The bank then sent the FBI the second micro with each bill number including all the other bills that were now newly added..  but there was an error in the range. That is probably where the 9998 bills comes from. The entire process of curating the FBI ransom list from two micro lists that included bills not given to Cooper was extremely sketchy. It is possible that some of the bill numbers on the ransom list are wrong.

For NORJAK the bank took $200,000 from the $250,000 emergency stash, 100 packets likely in uniform bundles. An employee randomized the bundles into various numbers of packets per bundle using rubber bands. 

 

 

Edited by FLYJACK

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Flyjack:  You explained that pretty well. I think I finally get it on the ransom money. Good job. 

I took down the Quora answer on my Army experiences after about a hundred views. No use hitting people over the head with that. :) Let's just agree that both the US Army and airline security have improved since the 1970's.

 

 

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21 hours ago, FLYJACK said:

It is hard to believe Tina would ask for ransom money, take it then hand it back claiming they can't accept gratuities.. Ransom money isn't a gratuity and she asked for it.

It was a joke. no, it's not gratuity but it would of become a crime if she accepted it..I see no reason at all for them to make any of this up or lie about it....

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54 minutes ago, mrshutter45 said:

It was a joke. no, it's not gratuity but it would of become a crime if she accepted it..I see no reason at all for them to make any of this up or lie about it....

 

Not true, it wouldn't be a crime if she took the money and handed it to the FBI later.

Her story sounds ridiculous. People lie all the time for many reasons. 

Only she and Cooper knows the truth..

 

It has happened in hijackings..

https://m.metrotimes.com/detroit/the-final-flight-of-martin-mcnally/Content?oid=2483257&storyPage=2

Martin McNally

"He also requested another $2,000 in small bills, most of which he gifted to the stewardesses as a tip for their compliance."

 

Edited by FLYJACK

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I tend to believe the Geoff Gray version, because he was allowed access to at least some of the un-redacted files during his book research. He says this:

Quote

In the empty cabin, Alice Hancock inches toward the hijacker. She wants her purse. "Sure," he says. "I'm not going to bite you."

Flo Schaffner wants her purse, too. As she walks down the aisle toward him, she notices the hijacker's mood has changed. He is giddy, almost boyish, clutching the money bag.
 
He asks Flo to hold it. Feel how heavy the money is?

She puts her arms around the bag. She lifts.
 
"It is heavy."

She heaves the sack back to him.
 
He fishes around the pockets of his pants for the $19 he received from Flo nearly four hours ago, on the tarmac in Portland, for the bourbon and Seven he ordered and spilled. He offers the change. 

Flo and Alice shake their heads. 
"Sorry."

"No tips."

The stews turn and scurry off the plane.
 
Tina does not leave. She stands with him in the rear. He is angry. The fuel has not been pumped. What is taking the Feds so long? 

"Close the shades," he says. 

Nothing about Tina being offered money. 

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13 minutes ago, RobertMBlevins said:

I tend to believe the Geoff Gray version, because he was allowed access to at least some of the un-redacted files during his book research. He says this:

Nothing about Tina being offered money. 

That confirms my previous point and timeline, that the "tip" was offered after the money was on the plane. It reflects the FBI interview with Flo,, and confirms the timeline I pointed out.

It conflicts with Tina's timeline for the attempted "tip"... it occurred after Tina was offered money.

Other books have claimed the two stews were offered ransom money before leaving the plane.. not in FBI files.

 

So, the order of events..

In Portland, Flo serves Cooper a drink then returns his change. no tip attempted.

Hours later..

Tina brings money onto the plane and asks for some. She takes it then returns it citing company policy and notes the drink tip from pocket for all stews incident.

Flo lifts the money bag. Cooper giddy.

then Cooper offers the stews change from his pocket, they refuse citing company policy..

 

No way, it doesn't make sense. Cooper offered them all ransom money, the drink tip story was used to cover it. 

Another possible explanation is that the FBI instructed them to use that tip narrative to hold back public info that only Cooper would know.

 

 

 

 

 

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52 minutes ago, mrshutter45 said:

 

tina.png

Yes...this is true. I was talking about when the other stews were there with Cooper, not earlier when Mucklow first brought the money on board. That part is covered in page 69 of the Gray book, a few pages back when Mucklow and the hijacker spoke alone:

(To cut to the chase, Mucklow has just brought the bag on board and given it to Cooper. Passengers still on board, other two stews still up front near the door.)

Quote

 

He peers inside. 

"Looks okay," he says. 

He plunges his hands in the bag, and his fingers swim around the tightly-wrapped twenties. 

"There's a lot of cash in that bag," Tina says. "Can I have some?" She is joking.

The hijacker pulls out a stack of bills and hands it to her anyway. He wants her to have the money.

"Sorry, sir," she says. "No tips. Northwest Orient policy."

She asks about the passengers. "Why not let them go now. You've still got the crew and the plane."

He agrees. The passengers can go. 

Soon the announcement is made. The passengers flood the aisles, retrieve their bags, hats, coats. Flo Schaffner is out of the cockpit and stands near the front door with Alice Hancock. From the rear, Tina Mucklow joins them, helping the angry, hostile passengers off the jet and into the rain. 

"Happy Thanksgiving!" she says. 

 

At this point, one passenger comes back on board to get his briefcase, and Mucklow practically shoves it at him. Crew complains that a passenger came back on board...FBI still stalling on the fuel truck. The only weak spot in this section of Gray's book is he doesn't say anything about Tina bringing the chutes on board. Gray notes that Cooper tells her to get them...then she says they are too heavy...Cooper tells her she will manage...and then the chutes are suddenly on the plane. Sounds like she retrieves them when she follows the guy who forgot his briefcase..after she escorts him off the plane. It is too bad that Flo and Alice and the rest of the crew simply didn't run for it down the forward stairs right there...because for a few seconds...there was no one between them and Cooper. In other words, all five remaining crew were up front, Cooper was in back, passengers now gone, and Mucklow was on the tarmac getting the chutes. They should have just run for it right there. Right down the damn stairs and grabbed Mucklow on their way, maybe throwing whatever chute she was carrying to the ground, and getting the hell out of there. 

That move would have left Cooper alone on the plane before he realized what was going on. But no one made the move, so when Tina came back up...the storm-the-plane opportunity disappeared. It was a pretty small window, but it was there for a few seconds. 

They even had a SECOND window to catch Cooper alone and missed it! You have to figure it took TWO trips at least for Mucklow to bring the chutes on board. Now the OTHER TWO stews are GONE as well. Just the three flight crew up front. Why didn't the crew bail when Mucklow went back outside for a second trip to get the remaining chutes? 

LOL no wonder Cooper got away with it. The escape was enabled by NWA CEO Donald Nyrop demanding cooperation and payoff...and an FBI team that was never ready and had their heads up their butts. No one thought of the obvious ploys to trap Cooper in the back alone. For example, the crew could have ditched their coats and hats and sneaked right off with the passengers. So when Mucklow goes out for the chutes, no one is left on board. Or...the FBI could have had the crew crack the windshield and fed them the rope ladder while the passengers were getting off the plane. Same result. 

Cooper deserved the money he got, and to get away with it. It was Amateur Night With Your Local FBI all the way that evening. 

Edited by RobertMBlevins

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For those of you really into the 'books written ABOUT or BY hijackers', there is one you may not have heard about. It is the autobiography of Patrick Dolan Critton, who at the age of 25 hijacked a plane to Cuba and was on the run for many years. The link on his name above leads to his hijacking entry by author Brendan Koerner. The link HERE leads to the book he wrote after he got out of prison in Canada. Although he was from the US, he actually did his hijacking in Canada. I won't vouch for the quality of the book, but he does cover the hijacking in chapter five.

Tell you the truth, I had not heard of this guy. 

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7 hours ago, FLYJACK said:

It was three trips for chutes.. back chute, two fronts and the other back chute.

Flo and Alice left after all the chutes brought on board.

Well, okay...Dropzone is the place where I sometimes just toss stuff out there to liven things up a bit. B|

In other news slightly Cooper-related, I have taken full ownership of Adventure Books of Seattle. Some bank accounts closed, others opened, changes to Lightning Source, Ingram, and our Amazon accounts were included in this process. Gayla said she wanted to step down as the actual owner, and just be the treasurer, so I said okay to that. Took me about a week to file all the paper and make the other changes I mentioned. Frankly, some of this has to do with the contract we currently hold on the upcoming DB Cooper picture. Some, but not all of this, was done to acquire a more favorable tax position. 

On a side note, Gayla Prociv has been an ongoing mystery to Cooper fans, since she rarely voices any opinions on the subject. I get a kick out of some of the theories about her. 'She must be Russian,' is the most common one, because of her last name. That was her married name, folks. She has an American maiden name and was Miss Vista, CA of 1978. No big deal, though. People will talk. This is our 20th year together. 

I will link you to the article at Quora where I tell people why she is the way she is...and much like her mother. 

 

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Tosaw's book states that Cooper tried to give the two stews tip money from his pocket as they were leaving - after the money was on board and after Tina took some ransom money. But, he also states that Cooper reached into the money bag pulled out 2 "packets" and said "here, take these, I don't want them."

He confirms the timeline from Flo and Gray and confirms that ALL the stews were offered ransom money.

 

Flo started serving drinks at Portland terminal, Cooper was first.

No drink tip offered to Flo when she served Cooper and gave him change.

Tina brought money on board and asked for some ransom money, took it and returned it claiming she can't accept a gratuity citing the Cooper drink tip incident. 

Later, Flo lifts the money bag to feel the weight.

Flo and Alice are leaving, Flo claims Cooper offered the drink tip bills from his pocket.

Tosaw - Cooper offers the two stews a packet of ransom money as they leave.

 

 

IMO, the drink tip story is bogus. If Tosaw had the ransom offer info, there is no way Cooper offered them a few bills form the tip money as well. I suspect that the FBI used the drink tip story to cover for Cooper offering them ransom money For two reasons.. to withhold info known to Cooper and to not give future hijackers the brilliant idea which compromises witnesses.

That means Tina's story is bogus. She likely heard the story from Flo and used it to embellish hers but it doesn't make any sense in the context of her interaction with Cooper.

Cooper removed at least 3 packets for the stews, 3 packets were found at TBAR, not bundles, not scrundles, not bojundles.. or even fofundles.

 

 

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1 hour ago, FLYJACK said:

Tosaw's book states that Cooper tried to give the two stews tip money from his pocket as they were leaving - after the money was on board and after Tina took some ransom money. But, he also states that Cooper reached into the money bag pulled out 2 "packets" and said "here, take these, I don't want them."

He confirms the timeline from Flo and Gray and confirms that ALL the stews were offered ransom money.

 

Flo started serving drinks at Portland terminal, Cooper was first.

No drink tip offered to Flo when she served Cooper and gave him change.

Tina brought money on board and asked for some ransom money, took it and returned it claiming she can't accept a gratuity citing the Cooper drink tip incident. 

Later, Flo lifts the money bag to feel the weight.

Flo and Alice are leaving, Flo claims Cooper offered the drink tip bills from his pocket.

Tosaw - Cooper offers the two stews a packet of ransom money as they leave.

 

 

IMO, the drink tip story is bogus. If Tosaw had the ransom offer info, there is no way Cooper offered them a few bills form the tip money as well. I suspect that the FBI used the drink tip story to cover for Cooper offering them ransom money For two reasons.. to withhold info known to Cooper and to not give future hijackers the brilliant idea which compromises witnesses.

That means Tina's story is bogus. She likely heard the story from Flo and used it to embellish hers but it doesn't make any sense in the context of her interaction with Cooper.

Cooper removed at least 3 packets for the stews, 3 packets were found at TBAR, not bundles, not scrundles, not bojundles.. or even fofundles.

 

 

It took a while to get approval to register, maybe this site is establishing some rules for once on the DB Cooper thread.  Some comments on some of the posts.

The money being planted: Why would the hijacker come back to Oregon to plant money somewhere where it likely would not even be found? Why not spread it out? He was risking a lot to come back.  Unlikely.  And the statute of limitations running out did not mean he was home free.  No criminal would believe he was off once the statute ran out.  Cooper committed so many crimes that day, that many many state/federal/city law enforcement agencies could have got him on something.

Cooper held 3 packs of bills, and coincidentaly 3 packs are found in 1980???? I say those were the same bills.

Cooper gets his drink, offers a tip with the 18 bucks or so he has.  Then he gets $200k and is giddy and decides he will try to offer another tip/or a first tip with the $18? For real? 

Why is it so far out of the realm of possibility that Tina or one of the flight attendants was in on it, or was an accessory after the fact?  Human beings are fallible.

Basically I agree with the thought patterns of Flyjack on the money find, tip, etc.

 

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2 hours ago, BParker said:

It took a while to get approval to register, maybe this site is establishing some rules for once on the DB Cooper thread.  Some comments on some of the posts.

The money being planted: Why would the hijacker come back to Oregon to plant money somewhere where it likely would not even be found? Why not spread it out? He was risking a lot to come back.  Unlikely.  And the statute of limitations running out did not mean he was home free.  No criminal would believe he was off once the statute ran out.  Cooper committed so many crimes that day, that many many state/federal/city law enforcement agencies could have got him on something.

Cooper held 3 packs of bills, and coincidentaly 3 packs are found in 1980???? I say those were the same bills.

Cooper gets his drink, offers a tip with the 18 bucks or so he has.  Then he gets $200k and is giddy and decides he will try to offer another tip/or a first tip with the $18? For real? 

Why is it so far out of the realm of possibility that Tina or one of the flight attendants was in on it, or was an accessory after the fact?  Human beings are fallible.

Basically I agree with the thought patterns of Flyjack on the money find, tip, etc.

 

One slight clarification, Cooper (they claim) offered the drink tip after he received the ransom and after Tina took some and claimed to return it.. about 4 hours after he had the drink..

 

Stews rejected the drink tip "because it was against company policy" then he offered them the packets of ransom money..  doesn't really make sense.

 

This is just a theory, it isn't proven but it is better than most of the theories floating around, the ransom money packets Cooper offered the stews ended up at TBAR... Tosaw speculated that the "rejected" packets went into his overcoat landed in the Columbia and ended up at TBAR.  Perhaps there was another route...

 

This theory applies to any Cooper suspect, it doesn't point to any specific suspect.

 

Georger,, if your going steal my homework at least get it correct.. 

Twisting, contorting and contextually distorting it to fit a false narrative is just lying. That doesn't advance the case, it subverts it.

Edited by FLYJACK

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'Cooper removed at least 3 packets for the stews, 3 packets were found at TBAR, not bundles, not scrundles, not bojundles.. or even fofundles...'

Assuming both these things are true, you still come back to the same problem...the one that has always hounded the Tina Bar money discovery:  Tina Bar is located at least six or seven miles, and at some times more, from the actual path of the jet. 

I agree that the drink change money story is doubtful. Here's one practical reason. Why would Cooper...when everyone's attention is focused on a fat bag of money...suddenly decide to reach into his pockets and dig out a few measly bills to offer the stews? That would be an insult. It is much more likely he would have just reached into the money bag to do any offer. 

Extrapolating from that point...why would Cooper decide to put any offered money into his pockets, instead of simply dropping them back into the money bag? It wasn't long afterward when he started cutting lines from that pink parachute to bind the money bag together. 

The available evidence says the flight path is correct, and that Cooper jumped PRIOR to the jet crossing over the Columbia River. The only remote possibilities I can think of might be if Cooper took some of the money and put it inside the briefcase, maybe inside the non-working reserve...and then left either or both of those items on the stairs...and maybe they finally dropped off the stairs over the Columbia after he jumped. 

But that is a stretch, too. One of the real problems here is the lack of a body, any of the other money, either parachute, or the briefcase, the paper bag with whatever was in it...none of these things were ever found. It's like looking from A to E, but B, C, and D are non-existent. It's a tough problem that has baffled everyone who has ever researched the money find. 

chutedemomap.jpg

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2 minutes ago, RobertMBlevins said:

'Cooper removed at least 3 packets for the stews, 3 packets were found at TBAR, not bundles, not scrundles, not bojundles.. or even fofundles...'

Assuming both these things are true, you still come back to the same problem...the one that has always hounded the Tina Bar money discovery:  Tina Bar is located at least six or seven miles, and at some times more, from the actual path of the jet. 

I agree that the drink change money story is doubtful. Here's one practical reason. Why would Cooper...when everyone's attention is focused on a fat bag of money...suddenly decide to reach into his pockets and dig out a few measly bills to offer the stews? That would be an insult. It is much more likely he would have just reached into the money bag to do any offer. 

Extrapolating from that point...why would Cooper decide to put any offered money into his pockets, instead of simply dropping them back into the money bag? It wasn't long afterward when he started cutting lines from that pink parachute to bind the money bag together. 

The available evidence says the flight path is correct, and that Cooper jumped PRIOR to the jet crossing over the Columbia River. The only remote possibilities I can think of might be if Cooper took some of the money and put it inside the briefcase, maybe inside the non-working reserve...and then left either or both of those items on the stairs...and maybe they finally dropped off the stairs over the Columbia after he jumped. 

But that is a stretch, too. One of the real problems here is the lack of a body, any of the other money, either parachute, or the briefcase, the paper bag with whatever was in it...none of these things were ever found. It's like looking from A to E, but B, C, and D are non-existent. It's a tough problem that has baffled everyone who has ever researched the money find. 

chutedemomap.jpg

I like the money falling off the stairs into the Columbia theory as well.. if it was a single bundle it did not have to be in a container.

but for the stew theory..

If one of the stews kept the packets and later discarded them into the Columbia the flight path and LZ would be consistent.

Tina resided about a mile from the Columbia in the late 1970's just upstream of TBAR. Heck of a coincidence.

There were 20 bills missing from one TBAR packet, they may have been removed prior to deposit, if we had the original unsorted bill list we might be able to determine the order.

Proving this after almost 50 years is big ask.

 

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After fifty years...yes...I see your point. And so many of the witnesses are dead. And so much of the available testimony is long after-the-fact. And then you have Himmelsbach, who...God rest his soul...DID tell one big lie to everyone for years. Either that, or he wasn't aware of the truth:

That no one was really looking for the money in any kind of organized fashion within 3 to 6 months after the hijacking. In other words, according to agent Larry Carr, most banks had given up the bill search within three months, and virtually all of them within six months because the job was just too difficult. You know...checking all the incoming twenties against a what...32 page list of 10,000 non-sequential numbers?

There is some outside support for Carr's claim as well. Back in late 2009/early 2010, I actually got a phone call with a senior official at the Bureau of Printing and Engraving in DC, the place where all the used and damaged currency ends up. He had been there for thirty years, and swore to me that any search for the ransom bills would have gone on for no more than a week or two at the P and E, due to the sheer number of bills (he said 'truckloads') that come in each week. Same thing for the Fed Reserve banks, although he said they may have tried it for a bit longer. Basically, he gave me a 'are you kidding me?' response to my question on the length of time the Feds actually kept looking for the bills. I told him what Himmelsbach claimed, and he laughed that off. 

Himmelsbach claimed that the search at the Fed banks went on for years, which was simply not true. Carr contradicts that statement directly. It is in his radio interview, down at the bottom of the Wiki page on Cooper. 

EDIT: On a side note, I'm still not completely buying the Seattle FBI's write-off of the Amboy parachute. I did get them to admit that the only person who was actually allowed to see it was Earl Cossey. The Seattle FBI said 'experts' had been consulted on it. When I pressed them, they admitted these people were only contacted by telephone. Later, they responded to inquiries about the Amboy chute by saying it was 'evidence in an ongoing case'. I reminded them politely that they had written it off as evidence five years ago. They told me the same thing. Frankly, I found that suspicious. Earl Cossey told media in the same week the chute was found that it WAS Cooper's. (He later said that was a joke) And then wrote it off by saying it was silk, and that's why it wasn't Cooper's. Other parachute experts who have seen the pictures of the Amboy chute say it is definitely NOT made of silk. Yet Cossey places his entire dismissal on the fact that it IS silk...

The whole thing stinks to high heaven. Tom Kaye and his team, who were allowed to examine the other physical evidence in the case....have been denied access to the Amboy chute. Kaye has a standing offer to them to this day. Something is not right about all this, and never has been. One theory might be that the FBI determined it could be Cooper's but won't release that info because it would tell everyone that Cooper survived the jump...and they have been saying since the Tina Bar money that they thought he was dead. 

Edited by RobertMBlevins

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