DB Cooper

[quade 3]

Quote

What do you think about the “Christmas Photo?”

It's almost proof the guy didn't do it.

Think about it for 14 nanoseconds. If you ever committed the "crime of the century" would you ever make a photo like that just a couple of weeks later? I wouldn't; no flippin' way!

IF you did it (and survived) the photo you -might- take -might- be a photo of you and the trophy money (maybe), but far more likely is there's no way you'd EVER take a photo that would connect you with the crime. That would just be f'in' stupid. You certainly wouldn't stage a photo of you with a plane ticket, briefcase and a fake "paper" bag when you had in your possession the ACTUAL bag of money. It just doesn't make sense.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[Sluggo_Monster 0]

All,

This thread seems to have settled down some (lately), and I have been thinking about ways to stimulate high-quality (and sometimes spirited) discussions. Sometimes it seems that every known aspect of NORJAK has been discussed (here) over and over and no resolution has been obtained. So here’s an idea I came up with this morning:

Back in 2008 I was severely criticized over my use of the term “FACT.” Even though it hurt my feelings at the time, it was (for the most part) a valid criticism. There are very few “facts” in the NORJAK case. There are a lot of interpretations of testimony, scenarios built on myths, scenarios built on testimony, assumptions and suppositions built on myths and testimony etc.

We (the Cooper/NORJAK non-professional investigation community) each have our favorite theories, and assumptions. Among those theories and assumptions there are some differences (a lot) and some commonalities. We may never know which assumptions and theories are valid, even if someone discovers who Cooper is/was. It might be helpful to catalog the assumptions, theories, and beliefs that are commonly held by the members of this community. I get a lot of communications from NORJAK enthusiast and neophytes asking questions that this group would consider pretty fundamental. I believe this group (thread posters) know more about NORJAK than probably any other group in the world (including the FBI as an organization).

So what I would like to propose is that we take one single issue and discuss that issue in this thread and form a consensus as to whether it is true, false, or indeterminate. We can then build a list of items that the Cooper/NORJAK non-professional investigation community considers valid assumptions (referred to a Community Assessed Valid Assumption) or CAVA.

The keys to success in an endeavor like this are discipline and the willingness to debate a minute aspect of the case which has already been discussed ad infinitum. The end product would be CAVAs that newbies and others could assume to be valid assumptions and move forward instead of covering ground that has been trampled to death. When an assumption is determined to be false or indeterminate, that will have value as well.

I will take on the responsibility of tabulating votes and tracking the results.

So, now I’m going to submit an issue for CAVA consideration, your response will tell me if you favor my proposal or not.

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Issue #1 (for CAVA consideration):
Dan Cooper was carrying a small paper bag when he boarded Flight 305 at PDX.
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

The floor is open for discussion.

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[SKYWHUFFO 0]

All right SLuggo I'll bite if you answer questions when asked too! Where did this info come from that he was carrying the bag? Did Tina or FLo remember him boarding? Why would they remember him over anyone else walking thru the door? I have always considered this a folklore info piece because i have never seen where it came from exactly.

[Sluggo_Monster 0]

SKYWUFFO,

Yes... I will answer.

Remember one thing though... the NASCAR Sprint Cup Race is at Martinsville today, so you have to wait for the race to be over and I have time to go through my records to answer. Think of it like a “Redneck Mini-Holiday.”

This is exactly how I hoped this (CAVA) deal will work. Good, honest, well thought-out discussion leading to a community consensus.

My next step is to go through all the media reports and find the earliest reference to the paper bag. I’ll report back as soon as I have found it. If anyone else has an early reference… chime in.

Just from off the top of my head, I think it showed up in the late 80s in one of those anniversary newspaper reports.

More after the race,

Sluggo

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[Sluggo_Monster 0]

I did some quick research while waiting for the green flag.

The first mention of a “paper sack” I can find in my (pretty extensive) collection of articles is in an article published in the Pittsburgh Post Gazette on November 13, 1976 by Joe Frazier (not the boxer). See it here.

It says; “Dan Cooper paid cash for his ticket, then, clutching a paper sack, boarded the Boing 727 for the 30-min flight.”

Note: No mention of a briefcase. Maybe someone just mixed up sack and briefcase, and then the sack lived on.

If that’s the case… I don’t think the sack existed.

Comments?

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[SKYWHUFFO 0]

The worst 2 words for a Nascar Fanatic RAIN DELAY! Sluggo, you better change over to basketball cause Martinsville is all wet! HA!

I think the Pittsburg article is artistic license of the writer. The only thing we know is the brief case from the bomb report.
I still stand by, why would a ticket counter person or stewardesses have a reason to remember Cooper before he handed that note off. Has anyone besides the men in black ever talked to the ticket counter person? Any of us ever tried? Is that person still living? Bruce I smell an interview if so? Everyone here conceides Tina is off limits, what about this guy or Flo? I think this shold be the next question group.
Just some questions to discuss whille mother nature leads a couple laps at Martinsville! HA!

[skyjack71 0]

Quote

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Issue #1 (for CAVA consideration):
Dan Cooper was carrying a small paper bag when he boarded Flight 305 at PDX.
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

My information came from Himmelsbach himself and that was in 1996 (fall of the yr). Like yourself one needs to find out if this is myth or fact - very good idea Mr. Sluggo. I will review the Norjak book and Tosaw's - unless you have already done so.

Below is a little story which is first hand knowledge of how myths are born:


As the story reported Weber placed money in a "sock" and threw it into the Columbia - at least it was laughable and made me think about "Sock Monkeys". Duane is up there grinning on that one.

Today March 28, 2010 is the 15th anniversary of Duane Weber's death in 1995. Our anniversary was March 27.

I do believe when Weber died Dan Cooper died - but, I may never be able to prove it. The legacy he left with me by saying "Oh, F--- Let it die with Me" in his moment of anger (due to my not understanding what he was trying to tell me) and basically ignoring him, will haunt me for the rest of my life.

If he had not told me and if I had not accidently discovered the name used by DB was Dan - my life could have been very different. I will try not to discuss Weber - but, today is an exception.

P.S.
Sluggo, I agree that the knowledge collectively in this forum is the most accurate information available - and sorting out the myths from the truths - regarding the crime itself will be a good focus. We don't need to hash them out - but follow the paper trails on these things - The Sock, excuse me - Sack - (I am sorry I just couldn't help myself) is a good jumping off point.

Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber

[skyjack71 0]

Quote

Has anyone besides the men in black ever talked to the ticket counter person? Any of us ever tried? Is that person still living?

Yes, unfortunately yours truely Jo Weber did speak to the ticket agent. I will have to go back thru my files to find the date and his name and the contact information - but I believe he is deceased now (just a rumor I heard, but no verification). I will also post any statements I may have written down- regarding this contact.

I believe that Margie Boule may have been the last actual individual to have interviewed this ticket agent. The accountings I have read of his story have changed over the yrs. I am sure Sluggo will find this to be true when he reviews the articles.

I was unable to open the article posted earlier regarding the sack.

Interviewers and writers make lots of mistakes (and/or deliberate creative literary licensing) - that alone is responsible for some of the myths.

Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber

[georger 197]

Quote

Quote

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Issue #1 (for CAVA consideration):
Dan Cooper was carrying a small paper bag when he boarded Flight 305 at PDX.
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

My information came from Himmelsbach himself and that was in 1996 (fall of the yr). Like yourself one needs to find out if this is myth or fact - very good idea Mr. Sluggo. I will review the Norjak book and Tosaw's - unless you have already done so.

It is a fact, my information came from LE in Dec 1971 who said it was 'common knowledge' among
LE that Cooper had a brief case and a brown paper bag .....

Is Sluggo contending these agents were all wrong?
That testimony of all the witnesses was wrong?
That interviews of hardware and shope owners in
the Portland area never happened?

Is it a fact the first newspaper reporting of a brown
paper bag is the reference Sluggo cites? I don't know and for me it does not matter because LE
does not fill out its evidence sheet from newspaper
tips!

[Orange1 0]

Georger, were you given any info on the size of the bag?

Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.

[georger 197]

Quote

Georger, were you given any info on the size of the bag?

small. maybe 1/4 the size of a common brown paper
grocery bag or smaller. Like a lunch bag. One officer
quipped 'maybe he had a change of underwear and
a pair of socks in it'. It didnt look heavy. It didnt rattle. One person wondered if maybe it wasnt just what it looked like - a lunch bag with food in it. At
no time did he clutch it like maybe there was a revolver inside. People were asked their impressions about the bag in interviews. Ckret mentions it in
his remarks in these pages -

What has always caught my attention about the
bag is nobody said anything (so far as I know)
about it being heavy or sounds coming from it
etc to give a clue as to its contents. If anything
it appeared soft and maleable as if containing
contents which were likewise soft, but that is
just a guess ...

[SKYWHUFFO 0]

Georger,

Who exactly told Law Enforcement(LE) about the bag. I have never seen it stated, and why would anyone have reason to remember him carrying it on the plane before the incident? this just strikes me as odd. Help me work thru this so i can understand it. Remember i am just a simple guy with a degree from a mid major conference( that was a shot at the basketball announcers this weekend I hate that term). HA! You gonna cheer Butler on now that UNI has bowed out?

[SKYWHUFFO 0]

377,
help me out on this one cause i never used one it was before my time. How big would a pillow altimeter be. Would it match Georger idea of the package size, or what would the military equal to that be? Georger that may answer your size and it being soft, quiet.

[BruceSmith 3]

I think the Pittsburg article is artistic license of the writer. The only thing we know is the brief case from the bomb report.

I still stand by, why would a ticket counter person or stewardesses have a reason to remember Cooper before he handed that note off. Has anyone besides the men in black ever talked to the ticket counter person? Any of us ever tried? Is that person still living? Bruce I smell an interview if so? Everyone here conceides Tina is off limits, what about this guy or Flo?

Quote

Galen asked me to try to locate the ticket counter guy or his family last summer. I was unable to do so.

Galen has the name, and I suppose I do too, but it's buried somewhere in The Box.

As I recall, Galen was pretty sure the ticket guy was deceased, and we were looking for a widow.

As for Blevins: I was disappointed "in extremis" when I saw a rectangular canopy on the cover of his book. His blithe dismissal of his mistake really casts a pall on his judgment. Alas.

Also, as others have posted, I don't understand Blevins' paranoia. Yeah, making a back-up and contracting with an overseas print house is the clear option if one is worried about interference. But , being arrested, if that is even possible for publishing a book about an open FBI investigation, would only be a great marketing point, not an impediment.

C'mon Larry - please arrest me!!!!! Then maybe Random House will return my phone calls, and I can get my mag piece sold to Mother Jones, too!!!!

Larry, umm, "Ckret" - I'll make the same deal with you that I offered to Himms: 10% of all my royalties.

C'mon, buddy.........

.....I'll even promise to not say any more bad things about you anymore on the forum - not even in PMs!

....I'll even insist on Jo using standard forms of Southern etiquette when she calls me at midnight ranting about you!!!!!!

...Please don't make me beg any more, C.....

...10%. Just tell me where to make the drop.

• Quote

[georger 197]

Quote

Georger,

Who exactly told Law Enforcement(LE) about the bag. I have never seen it stated, and why would anyone have reason to remember him carrying it on the plane before the incident? this just strikes me as odd. Help me work thru this so i can understand it.

I guess everyone who saw it reported it after the
fact in their interviews/testimony. It was always part
of the original description given to Law Enforcement.

Ckret confirmed the bag below:


Ckret
Dec 4, 2007, 11:53 AM

Post #666 of 1694 (1605 views)
Copy Shortcut

Re: [SafecrackingPLF] Composition of paper bills [In reply to]

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

It was a small paper sack he brought on the plane with him, unknown contents.

Ckret

------------------------------------------------------

[Sluggo_Monster 0]

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Issue #1 (for CAVA consideration):
Dan Cooper was carrying a small paper bag when he boarded Flight 305 at PDX.
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++



Okay… Let’s take a mid-discussion inventory. It seems like:

SKYWUFFO is not convinced
Jo is convinced
Georger is convinced
Bruce is not convinced
Sluggo is convinced


As for me, when georger cited the statement from Ckret that convinced me. (Remember that is what I was criticized for before.) georger also made a statement about LE, that would also be convincing to me if he stated a reference. So at this point of the discussion I’m convinced.

But this exercise is about assumptions commonly held by the members of this community, so, more discussion is needed.

Let’s hear from other posters.


PS: I’m liking this discussion, it’s better than carping at each other all the time

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[skyjack71 0]

Since I was told early on in my contact with the FBI and retired FBI about the bag. This has always been a given for me. I was told it was lunch size - other than this no reference was given in size. It could have been a 2 packs of smokes? Candy bars?
No-Doze (an over the counter drug used to help one stay awake)? Gloves?

There was a shoe shine stand in the terminal? I mention this for my own reasons - because of something Duane said and did at a later date. Note the ankle rubbers I have described before ( well known from that time period) used to protect the shoes from the rain and slush.
A common item at a shoe shine concession in airports in that time period. Just the right size when purchased in their little travel pouch.

Seems unlikely Cooper entered the airport with this small bag. If he had purchased it before he got to the airport he would have removed the contents and tucked them in his pockets.

Ticket Agents name was
Dennis Lysne

Gate Agent
Howell Williams

I believe it was the Gate Agent I spoke to, but my notes are over 13 yrs old (no computer during the first 4 yrs).

Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber

[BruceSmith 3]

I believe the prepondernce of evidence is that DBC had a paper bag, contents unknown. Ckret and LE reports are compelling.

[SKYWHUFFO 0]

I am leaning towards acceptance of the bag. I try to look at things as whole picture. In the whole picture there are SO MANY, myths born to this story because of mis reporting or exageration thru the years. This happened from day one, from DAN to DB. Call it the engineer in me, we have a word we use everyday with data, it's validate. By seeing the agreement from several different angles, Georger, Sluggo, and Jo, it helps to validate the existance. Cooper stated in the transcripts to stay at 10K, he had an altimeter. This is why i asked 377 about the pillow mounted altimeters of this time period. Sluggo, what's the next question? I like this alot better than watching the bickering.

[skyjack71 0]

Quote

Sluggo, what's the next question? I like this alot better than watching the bickering.

other than the pictures and note Cossey sent me. They are letter size and several of them - don't know how to get those on the forum so you guys can see what Cossey sent.

The pictures appear to be of Cossey himself and have pictures of the hardware. None of you have seen this stuff...the actual chutes and things.

Perhaps Sluggo knows how I can get these 4 pages (pictures and hardware) on to the site.

P.S. I want to know what Larry Carr meant by "If you come to Wa, you could get in trouble". What's he going to do arrest me? Are they going to keep me from going to county records insearch of property owners from 1945 to 1971? Are they going to stop me from retracing the route Duane took me on and trying to find the small part I haven't found (the tower area)? Are they going to keep me from checking the records of owners of the Dollar Corner Tavern? Are they going to stop me from going to Goldendale, The Dalles and a couple of other small places checking the historians and old pictures and looking for a family by the name of Van Buren? Are they going to keep me out of Mt.Hood, Or looking for old pics and history and names? What will I be doing I am not supposed to be doing - are they afraid I will find some small piece of evidence?

Do they plan on keeping me out of Spokane, Wa and then out of the Bittercreek area in ID? There is a town just across the state line in Idaho - Duane told me he could never go back to and I intend to find out why. I know from he said he worked in the Bittercreek area and he told me about hunting and I believe "goats" on steep ridges - I don't have a clue what he was talking about, but I intend to find out.

At least maybe I will learn something about this man I was married to for 17 yrs. This will be my last adventure - bear in mind that the fartherest I have driven in 10 yrs is about 35 miles from home....my husband always did the driving when we traveled. Maybe there is a local retired forestry person who might be interested in making some money and get a little travel time in WA, OR and ID. I have places to go in all of those areas.This person needs to be someone who has a lot of knowledge of these areas. Needless to say - lots of patience!

Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber

[377 21]

Quote

P.S. I want to know what Larry Carr meant by "If you come to Wa, you could get in trouble". What's he going to do arrest me? Are they going to keep me from going to county records insearch of property owners from 1945 to 1971?

I'd bet 100 to 1 that Carr was expressing concern for your welfare rather than threatening you Jo. Since you are so secretive about what you plan to do in WA it's hard to know what prompted Carr's words.

If you think the FBI cares where you travel you are overestimating their interest in you and Duane by a large amount.

Overestimating the FBI's interest in your affairs is kind of sad. The truth is less glamourous Jo, they don't really care what you do as long as you don't commit crimes within their jurisdiction.

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[377 21]

Quote

377,
help me out on this one cause i never used one it was before my time. How big would a pillow altimeter be. Would it match Georger idea of the package size, or what would the military equal to that be? Georger that may answer your size and it being soft, quiet.

There is no such thing as a pillow altimeter. The pillow was simply a wedge of fabric covered foam onto which an altimeter was mounted and the foam pillow was attached to the harness, usually with a webbing loop through which a chest strap was passed. In 71 there were a number of skydiving altimters available that could easy fit in your pocket. The SSE Altimaster was one. The Northstar was another.

BTW an altimeter is just a barometer with a different face on it calibrated in feet rather than pressure. There were a number of hiker barometer/altimeter devices available in 71 that were even smaller than skydiving altimeters.

Scroll down for pillow picture
http://www.square1.com/manufacturers/square1/p231.asp#LongAltiPillow


377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[Sluggo_Monster 0]

SKYWHUFFO Said:
I am leaning towards acceptance of the bag. I try to look at things as whole picture. In the whole picture there are SO MANY, myths born to this story because of mis reporting or exageration thru the years. This happened from day one, from DAN to DB. Call it the engineer in me, we have a word we use everyday with data, it's validate. By seeing the agreement from several different angles, Georger, Sluggo, and Jo, it helps to validate the existance.…. Sluggo, what's the next question? I like this alot better than watching the bickering.


Great! This is what I envisioned when I suggested the CAVA Exercise!

If all it does is stop the bickering, it’s worth the hassle.

I believe we need to hear from a few more regular posters. When 377 and others have expressed an opinion, I will accept a motion to take a full vote.

This exercise will require patience, when I started thinking about this, I thought that running the CAVA Assumptions in chronological order (from Cooper boarding the plane to Ingram finding the money (and farther)) would make logical sense, since assumptions tend to build on each other. I also think we will be best served by focusing on only one issue at a time. If others want to make a change it that process, I am a humble servant of this community and will gladly make changes. I am trying to walk a thin line between leadership and servant-ship, I just want this thread to become viable again.

Speaking of leadership and servant-ship, I have been variously accused (on this thread and in PMs) of being pedantical, patriarchal, and having a messiah complex, so I want to be clear that the CAVA Exercise should be for this community and by this community. If someone else wants to take the reins, I will surrender them happily, and participate cheerfully.

{NOTE: Does the forum accept polls and if so, how do I set it up? If it doesn’t we’ll just do a summary of votes expressed in a post for that expressed purpose. If the CAVA thing takes legs and walks, I’ll set up polls on my web site. Ireally don’t want to do that, plus, I have no way to limit it to just this community.}

So, come on… let’s hear comments on CAVA #1 from others!



++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Sluggo’s Quotable Quotes

"Somebody has to do something, and it's just incredibly pathetic that it has to be us."
--Jerry Garcia
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

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[Orange1 0]

Quote

What has always caught my attention about the
bag is nobody said anything (so far as I know)
about it being heavy or sounds coming from it
etc to give a clue as to its contents. If anything
it appeared soft and maleable as if containing
contents which were likewise soft, but that is
just a guess ...

Like goggles and an alti...?

Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.

[Orange1 0]

Quote

I still stand by, why would a ticket counter person or stewardesses have a reason to remember Cooper before he handed that note off.

I've asked this question before too. It seems odd to me that the ticket counter person would have remembered anything about an unremarkable person at the counter. The stews I can understand, because they would have had opportunbity to observe him afterwards too.

Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.