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snowmman 3
Quote
Cooper stated his primary motive. Grudge.
G.
I was surprised that Ckret repeatedly said that if the grudge was primary, Cooper would have stated it when he got the microphone. I'm no shrink, but isn't that a narrow view of people with grudges? Cooper, the quiet guy seemed like the slow-burner type. He was probably used to internalizing crap?
If Cooper did have a grudge (he said he did) and he was trying to not get caught, then airing his grudge would have been stupid as it would have disclosed something about himself. He seemed consistent in not disclosing much about himself, so why would he air his grudge?
I'm guessing that he had a basket of grudges...in his mind layered in complexity. So that maybe also it just wasn't worth trying to explain it all to Tina. After all, what was she going to fix about any grudge?
I'm just musing about why the grudge is expected to be aired. Just lashing out may have been sufficient for Cooper? In addition to needing the money.
(edit) In fact, there's no grudge that a hijack addresses in any rational way. Maybe he was mentally both rational and irrational. Schizophrenic sort of.
snowmman 3
(I had already mentioned Sellick's 1971 book)
I had first thought "Too late" But Zing is right. It was there in time. In fact there are more books pre-1971 that might have been useful.
This is 4th edition in 1972
Gunby,R.A. Sport Parachuting Handbook the 1970's Textbook of Sport Parachuting
Denver, CO, Jeppeson and Company. 1972, 4th Edition.
Elsewhere I've found early editions though:
4th revision 1969 (162 pp)
5th printing 1971 (163 pp)
I think what's called "4th Revision" is "4th printing" and that was indeed 1969
The 1969 copy is available for just $5
Oh wait there's more.
The 1963 edition is the 3rd edition, 120pp
Others
Sellick published in 1961
"Skydiving The art and science of sport parachuting"
Greenwood published in 1968
"Parachuting For Sport"
"The Complete Sport Parachuting Guide" by Charles Shea-Simonds in 1971
I've attached the cover of the 1969 printing of Gunby.
(edit) added cover of 1971 Greenwood
377 21
My first jump in 68 was a solid night jump. It was well after sunset and quite dark when I landed. One delay lead to another, girl before me froze on the strut, etc.
Gluons??? Is that what makes adhesives fight gravity? Hey, EEs just skim physics, you know that Georger. If I am only a decade behind the times that's ok. It takes twice that long for any new ideas in physics to have a practical application so no pragmatic harm in lagging.
Zing, can you apply for a pardon and rejoin the forum? Your symptoms are puzzling in light of your good test results. Did they rule out ventricular arrythmias?
People shouldn't get too hung up on PCA or USPA rules as a reliable indicator of jump behavior. They are often ignored. Logbooks have been faked. Jumpers do all sorts of jumps regardless of rules or even common sense. A high school kid jumped into our stadium during a night game in the 60s. Insanely risky jump and against all the rules, but he did it.
Bring Zing back!!!!!
377
snowmman 3
For Zing to offend, there have to be people who are offended. If we all agree we're not offended then Zing can do no wrong.
Hey he gave a good post with good info for free and while banned. He's earned it! Give him a DBC thread A-license. No night posts yet though!
(edit) Just noticed that the collision event that produced the first evidence of the gluon was in 1979 (logbook attached). I don't know if this is connected to the money find in 1980.
QuoteQuote.something was even said about Alaska.
http://www.northpole.ru/eng/skydive.htm
Did Duane ever mention Llyushin-76 or Antonov-26's?
Duane was never aware of the conversation Ed and I had. I was true to my word and did not tell Duane. No idea what you are talking about - iota.
georger 197
QuoteThanks for the post Zing, I liked it.
Quote
Cooper stated his primary motive. Grudge.
G.
I was surprised that Ckret repeatedly said that if the grudge was primary, Cooper would have stated it when he got the microphone. I'm no shrink, but isn't that a narrow view of people with grudges? Cooper, the quiet guy seemed like the slow-burner type. He was probably used to internalizing crap?
If Cooper did have a grudge (he said he did) and he was trying to not get caught, then airing his grudge would have been stupid as it would have disclosed something about himself. He seemed consistent in not disclosing much about himself, so why would he air his grudge?
I'm guessing that he had a basket of grudges...in his mind layered in complexity. So that maybe also it just wasn't worth trying to explain it all to Tina. After all, what was she going to fix about any grudge?
I'm just musing about why the grudge is expected to be aired. Just lashing out may have been sufficient for Cooper? In addition to needing the money.
(edit) In fact, there's no grudge that a hijack addresses in any rational way. Maybe he was mentally both rational and irrational. Schizophrenic sort of.
Reply> I agree with everything you say above. Without
knowing the man its difficult to generalise - you would
almost certainly be wrong somewhere. He's too old to
have a single grudge, in all likelihood.
I wouldn't describe him as schizoid at all. He's under
real stress but stayed with the tasks at hand and
finished his mission.
I dont agree with Ckret he would have stated his
grudge when he had the microphone. I am sure he
didn't want any microphone. I don't think he was enjoying anything. I think this was merely a means
to an end, in his mind.
We don't know who this guy was before the event or
anything about him afterwards.
Georger
QuoteWithout knowing the man its difficult to generalise - you would almost certainly be wrong somewhere. He's too old to
have a single grudge, in all likelihood.
I wouldn't describe him as schizoid at all. He's under real stress but stayed with the tasks at hand and
finished his mission.
I dont agree with Ckret he would have stated his grudge when he had the microphone. I am sure he
didn't want any microphone. I don't think he was enjoying anything. I think this was merely a means to an end, in his mind.
We don't know who this guy was before the event or anything about him afterwards.
What you have just described is how I would imagine one lives within the confines of a prison to stay out of trouble. Don't toot your horn, keep to your tasks, be polite - a means to an end - get out of prison.
georger 197
Let Zing back....QuoteGeorger (and Zing),
My first jump in 68 was a solid night jump. It was well after sunset and quite dark when I landed. One delay lead to another, girl before me froze on the strut, etc.
Gluons??? Is that what makes adhesives fight gravity? Hey, EEs just skim physics, you know that Georger. If I am only a decade behind the times that's ok. It takes twice that long for any new ideas in physics to have a practical application so no pragmatic harm in lagging.
Zing, can you apply for a pardon and rejoin the forum? Your symptoms are puzzling in light of your good test results. Did they rule out ventricular arrythmias?
People shouldn't get too hung up on PCA or USPA rules as a reliable indicator of jump behavior. They are often ignored. Logbooks have been faked. Jumpers do all sorts of jumps regardless of rules or even common sense. A high school kid jumped into our stadium during a night game in the 60s. Insanely risky jump and against all the rules, but he did it.
Bring Zing back!!!!!
377
Im still intrigued by night jumps at dusk. I still think
there is an advantage to it - lack of depth perception in low light so jumping doesn't look as threatening.
what do you think?
G.
Orange1 0
QuoteCooper stated his primary motive. Grudge.
G.
Disagree. He said he had a grudge, but I don't recall anything reporting him as saying that was the main reason for the hijack? Cannot prove that it was his primary motive rather than the money on what we know.
Orange1 0
QuoteTo those who inquired about my health ... Well, the doctors aren't certain exactly what happened to me. I really thought I was having a heart attack when I had chest pains, numbness and shooting pain down my left arm, shortness of breath and a bit of nausea, but after $40,000 worth of medical bills, the cardiologists say my heart and lungs and coronary arteries are healthy. I'm now engaged in trying to get my FAA medical certicate back so I can start flying again, but it may take three to six months to do that. In the meantime, I've had no reoccurence of symptoms and I feel fine.
Good luck with staying healthy and getting your FAA cert...
georger 197
QuoteQuoteCooper stated his primary motive. Grudge.
G.
Disagree. He said he had a grudge, but I don't recall anything reporting him as saying that was the main reason for the hijack? Cannot prove that it was his primary motive rather than the money on what we know.
Read Ckret's post above. Unless I misread it, Tina sked C why he was hijacking the plane. He said a
grudge, not against the airlines, just a grudge.
He didn't elaborate. So if Cooper was speaking
truthfully, his primary motive was a grudge.
You know something better?
G.
georger 197
Quote
QuoteWithout knowing the man its difficult to generalise - you would almost certainly be wrong somewhere. He's too old to
have a single grudge, in all likelihood.
I wouldn't describe him as schizoid at all. He's under real stress but stayed with the tasks at hand and
finished his mission.
I dont agree with Ckret he would have stated his grudge when he had the microphone. I am sure he
didn't want any microphone. I don't think he was enjoying anything. I think this was merely a means to an end, in his mind.
We don't know who this guy was before the event or anything about him afterwards.
What you have just described is how I would imagine one lives within the confines of a prison to stay out of trouble. Don't toot your horn, keep to your tasks, be polite - a means to an end - get out of prison.
Come Jo. You dont have to imagine, You know.
There many kinds of prisons. ...
G.
snowmman 3
Quote
Come Jo. You dont have to imagine, You know.
There many kinds of prisons. ...
G.
But on the bright side!:
To Althea. From Prison.
"Stone walls do not a prison make,
Nor iron bars a cage;
Minds innocent and quiet take
That for an hermitage;
If I have freedom in my love
And in my soul am free,
Angels alone, that soar above,
Enjoy such liberty."
Richard Lovelace, written in prison
(edit) or: "To DBC thread. From the banned Zing" :)
snowmman 3
Quote
Jo said:
Duane was never aware of the conversation Ed and I had. I was true to my word and did not tell Duane.
why would you have a secret conversation with Ed while Duane was alive, that involved a conversation about jumping? What was the context?
snowmman 3
Born Brooklyn, NY June 30, 1901. Died in 1980.
Actually escaped out of jail several times. Tunnel from Eastern State Penitentiary. Another: disguised as prison guards carrying a ladder.
Career ended in 1952 with a life sentence.
Paroled and retired to Florida.
His robberies said to total $2M. (~100 banks)
He liked to use disguises.
He once said he felt "more alive when I was inside a bank robbing it than at any other time in my life"
A reporter supposedly asked him:
"Why do you rob banks"
He answered
"Because that's where the money is"
His co-wrote "I, Willie Sutton" and "Where The Money Was"
When Willy Sutton was captured, a book in his possession was "How To Think Ahead In Chess".
reference Time 1952:
http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,817124-1,00.html
There is a medical phrase called "Sutton Law" in reference to him. It means:
"Always perform at the outset the diagnostic test or therapeutic maneuver most likely to establish the diagnosis"
Cooper doesn't sound anything like Willy Sutton.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Willie_Sutton
http://www.fbi.gov/libref/historic/famcases/sutton/sutton.htm
In his autobiography, he dismisses the quote:
"Why did I rob banks? Because I enjoyed it. I loved it. I was more alive when I was inside a bank, robbing it, than at any other time in my life. I enjoyed everything about it so much that one or two weeks later I'd be out looking for the next job. But to me the money was the chips, that's all."
"Go where the money is...and go there often."
and in closing, from the fbi site:
"Ironically, in 1970, Sutton did a television commercial to promote the New Britain, Connecticut, Bank and Trust Company's new photo credit card program."
QuoteQuote
Jo said:
Duane was never aware of the conversation Ed and I had. I was true to my word and did not tell Duane.
why would you have a secret conversation with Ed while Duane was alive, that involved a conversation about jumping? What was the context?
Snowmman: Why do I have to repeat this story and why is everything I say taken out of context?
This was not a "SECRET" conversation and it was not about "JUMPING". Ed was ill while we were in Denver and he asked Duane to come over and run an errand for him to get his medication.
I stayed with Ed while Duane went to the drug store. It was a general conversation. He asked me where I was from and "just stuff". Toward the end of this conversation I asked him how long he had known Duane and where he knew him from. Simpy ordinary questions just general conversation. I had never met Ed prior to that time.
He told me that he knew Duane from way back in WA, OR and ID. He mentioned Helicopters and planes - he was a pilot or mechanic. He also said something about Alaska and Vancouver. I told him I didn't know Duane had ever lived there.
He immediately stated - that he supposed Duane had never told me about that part of his life and he did not realize I did not know. He asked me not to mention this to Duane - I would suppose thinking Duane would be upset. I kept my word and did not mention it to Duane and over time I forgot about it. Ed was very adamant about my not sharing our conversation with Duane. What I have just said is all he said.
The conversation was interupted as Duane was back with the medication...the drug store was just on the corner of the block so what time I spent with Ed alone was about 15-20 minutes.
snowmman 3
Quote
He told me that he knew Duane from way back in WA, OR and ID. He mentioned Helicopters and planes - he was a pilot or mechanic. I told him I didn't know Duane had ever lived there.
He immediately stated - that he supposed Duane had never told me about that part of his life and he did not realize I did not know.
He asked me not to mention this to Duane -
Did he mention hiking with Duane? I've always wondered about that photograph, that appears to me to be hiking, with some mountains with spring/summer? snow on them.
What did Ed look like? Was he fit looking? How old was Ed then? What year was the conversation?
How did he fit helicopters, planes, and job description as pilot or mechanic all in that random 15 minute conversation? It doesn't make sense.
(edit) related:
May 31/June 1, 1967
Two USAF HH-3E ( Sikorsky S-61R ) made the first non-stop trans-Atlantic flight by helicopters , en route to the Paris Air Show.
Nine aerial refueling were made by each aircraft from C-130 Hercules tankers at altitudes of between 300 and 2800 m and speeds of 200 km/h.
The 6870 km from New York to Paris were flown in 30 hs 46 min.
Reply> Nice post. Thanks!
I for one appreciate the common sense approach.
Georger
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