DB Cooper

[Orange1 0]

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I was wondering last night; of all the parachuting hijackers on record, how many were 40+ and pushing 50, and what percentage younger? Is this a young person's sport or an old person's dream, and is there any distinction - statistically?

In 1971, I'd think lots of paratrooper vets around, and in much higher proportion to sport skydivers than today. Anyone know where/if we can get stats on USPA (or whatever it was then) membership in 1971 as an idea? Does the army release data on the numbers of jumpers it has trained?

Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.

[skyjack71 0]

Remember ZING. He used to post till the moderator kicked him out, but he wasn't a bad guy - it was just a misunderstanding and he was defending me...I felt like it was my fault.

I kept in touch with him by phone every few months but have not been able to reach him for a 2 or 3 months. I just got an email. He is not well and I know that some of you must know him personally so I am sure he would love to hear from you.

Couldn't we talk Quade to letting him back in the forum - ZING has told me in the past how much he misses it. I miss him and I never met him, but I consider him a friend.

Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber

[377 21]

Come on Quade, give Zing a second (or is it third?) chance.

Jo can be his probation officer. She knows the drill, I am sure.

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[377 21]

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Is this a young person's sport or an old person's dream

It's both. The new gear lets us original gangsters fly way beyond the point when we should be trading the skies for the golf greens. There have been freefall formations made by skydivers all of whom were over 80!

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[georger 197]

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and on the other side, who best could handle mistakes or apparent mistakes and take up the
slack?

Yeah, but... I dunno, Georger. Ask anyone who's seen someone come off second best to the ground, and see if they are prepared to take a risk like that? Remember skydiving is about minimizing risks, it's not a death wish like many seem to think...

But Cooper probably was NOT a sky diver! So what
the psychology or motivation of skydivers is,
especially today's generation, is irrelevant.

I will present here a Geico-moment.

By 1970, which is the decade of the 50's-60's,
skydiving is a very small community in contrast
to the jump community of the military, for example.
in 1965-70. It would be like comparing model rocketeers to NASA and the US Army Air Corps. (von Braun at Huntsville etal) in 1965-70.

We do have a few basic facts about Cooper, mid to late forties or early fifties. Let's say age 47.

Dan Cooper: age 47
Born 1924
age 18 1942
age 20 1944
age 27 1951
age 47 1971

If Coop learnt parachuting any way it was in the
military (most likely) not in sky diving (less likely).
So, we are potentially talking about a WWII paratrooper veterans skills base, attitudes, etc.

If you push the scale up and say he is 52 then
Cooper is totally within the WWII generation:

age 52 1971
age 20 1939
age 18 1937
born born


Cooper very likely learnt everything he had and was
out of the post WWI and WWII generations.

Maybe Korea but if so that is simply an extended
version of WWII in terms of core values and experience.

So, unless Cooper was a member of a very select
community of hobby sky diving after WWII, 1945-
1970, or affiliated with it in some way, then the
foundation of any parachuting skills he had was
in the military and military values apply.

Several other demograohic realities need to be
mentioned, if Cooper was WWII generation and
aged 47 or thereabouts.

born 1924
age 20 1944
war ends 1945
...... 1955 doing what?
...... 1965 doing what?
1971 hijacks airplane & parachutes

Maybe Cooper was a successful person by 1971 and
hijacks an airplane for kicks? The other pattern post WWII leading to crime is more typical:

Misses out of the post-WWII boom period through
the 1950's, tries again in the 1960's but things don't go smoothly - a very typical pattern for many post WWII. By the mid to late 1960's the sense of failure is becoming evidenent so Cooper decides to take
a stand and make a personal statement. He uses
the core values and skills he has or think he still
can muster to use.

But whatever the facts are, it ALL is centered in the
WII generation and post WWII epoch. That much
is clear.

How hobby sky diving fits into this more factual scenario is anyone's guess.

Georger

[georger 197]

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If Cooper intended to jump right after take off why did he waste valuable time on refueling? The fueling delay was making him really uptight. Why didnt he just skip it? Was it important because it would mislead the cops into thinking he intended a long flight before jumping?

377

needed fuel for a rendevoir?

He needs fuel to make it uncertain what his
itenerary is...

[Orange1 0]

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and on the other side, who best could handle mistakes or apparent mistakes and take up the
slack?

Yeah, but... I dunno, Georger. Ask anyone who's seen someone come off second best to the ground, and see if they are prepared to take a risk like that? Remember skydiving is about minimizing risks, it's not a death wish like many seem to think...

But Cooper probably was NOT a sky diver!

errr... yes, that was the point i was trying to make... in response to (did i misread?) your comment that a skydiver would be best able to handle a problem with the gear...

Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.

[Orange1 0]

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rendevoir?

?
rendezvous?

Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.

[BuzzardNest 0]

Ok, CKRET Agent, give it to us straight pleez. No fingerprints on the ticket. No fingerprints on the magazines. So, just where were some of those 66 fingerprints that Himmelsbach said were left on Flight 305? Certainly Cooper touched something. The booze glass. The bathroom door. The rear stairs latch handle. The rigger's card on the Paracommander. Come on, Larry. We taxpayers are cutting you a check. Cut us a break.

[airtwardo 6]

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Remember ZING. He used to post till the moderator kicked him out, but he wasn't a bad guy - it was just a misunderstanding and he was defending me...I felt like it was my fault.

I kept in touch with him by phone every few months but have not been able to reach him for a 2 or 3 months. I just got an email. He is not well and I know that some of you must know him personally so I am sure he would love to hear from you.

Couldn't we talk Quade to letting him back in the forum - ZING has told me in the past how much he misses it. I miss him and I never met him, but I consider him a friend.

What happen to Zing?


Hope nothing serious, rumors of his demise have been circulation for YEARS!

~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

[shredder 0]

Ckret - has the FBI ever thought about giving Cooper amnesty? I know, it sounds crazy, but IF he is still alive and came forward with the story of how he did it, it might be worth it!!!

Learn from the past - don't live in it!

[377 21]

The FBI doesn't have the power to do it. If they did, I wonder if Ckret would favor it? I think he'd oppose it for several reasons:

1. It was terrorism. I gotta stop thinking "folk hero."

2. Amnesty would akin to admitting FBI defeat.

3. If he solves the case, Carr will deservedly be famous. Why erase the opportunity?

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[snowmman 3]

Okay guys,
I posted a DZ.com search issue before, saying that I thought there was a bug in DZ.com or user error.

I have more info/speculation.

I had to hack into DZ.com and take over everyone's account for 37 milliseconds (I didn't look at private photos, although I didn't know so many of you guys out there jumped in panties?)

I double proxied in thru Pakistan and Slovenia, so hopefully no incriminating crumbs. I only use wireless for my last hop, and I spoof my MAC address every 15 minutes.

In any case, it appears that the search database that stores our posts, doesn't store the text that you see "right now".

What I'm guessing is that the search database is updated on the original post, and not updated when you use the Edit or Delete links. (note that your edit or delete ability disappears at midnight (I believe?) for the day associated with the post)

You can check this speculation if you have a good memory, by searching for text for a poster who deleted messages. You'll get that post in your search (matching your remembered text) but when you click on it, you'll see it's deleted.

Quade can confirm. There are alternative possibilities, I suppose.

tearing down the proxies now.

Note that search also hits on posts that have been dumped in the recycle bin, say if Quade deletes them. Although you can't read the post.

It's not a question of the search database just being a late copy of what you see "right now". Posts show up pretty quickly in search after someone makes them..


Issue reminds me of the quip "The Web never forgets"

You might ask "Why is this interesting snowmman?"
Well if true, then hitting "Delete" for instance, doesn't mean your post is deleted. Someone, for instance Quade, would still have an old copy of it in the search database.

[377 21]

So those blank "deleted" posts by Georger are not truly gone? You are a smart guy Snowmman. Can you write a program to reconstruct a deleted post based on a search word generator and hit logger? You'd need a syntactically smart and context oriented assembler to try and make sense out of all the words "found" in a deleted post. Should take you a weekend at most .

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[snowmman 3]

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So those blank "deleted" posts by Georger are not truly gone? You are a smart guy Snowmman. Can you write a program to reconstruct a deleted post based on a search word generator and hit logger? You'd need a syntactically smart and context oriented assembler to try and make sense out of all the words "found" in a deleted post. Should take you a weekend at most .

377

:)

Hey Quade. notice that half of my post was a joke and half was accurate info from what I can tell.
It's interesting to me, I couldn't understand my problem searching on LaPoint etc. like I said. Only interesting if one is concerned about using this thread as a database for info..Remember how I mentioned using Search Engines without understanding what they do? Always gotta understand the limits/problems with a tool. All tools are broken in some way. Maybe humans too!

(testttt 377: i just checked that it gives us the capability to post in "stealth" mode..i.e. it's possible to create posts that won't show up in the search! So if the clerks are using the DZ.com search function for writing up the warrant..we can be under the radar, I think!)..as long as there is enough noise (posts) that they won't wade thru all the pages...377 you suggested that noise was a problem, relative to a coherent signal. Now can you see the benefits of noise?

[lisamariewillbe 1]

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I had to hack into DZ.com and take over everyone's account for 37 milliseconds (I didn't look at private photos, although I didn't know so many of you guys out there jumped in panties?)

It was lingerie thank you very much...

BTW people jump naked to...

Wonder if DB did his 100th naked?

Sudsy Fist: i don't think i'd ever say this
Sudsy Fist: but you're looking damn sudsydoable in this

[nigel99 144]

http://images.google.com/hosted/life/l?q=parachute+source:life&imgurl=be4b09fed634d9dd

Courtesy of life magazine we can now put Duane near a parachute One of those chaps seems to resemble the composite.

On a more serious note - this photo was taken from another thread, and one of the other pictures has the following caption

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Carl Rutledge, pres. of the Targeteers parachuting club, sadly posing w. his wife, in front of the wind sock nr. jump sight where against his better judgement, their son Danny, 11, made his fatal free-fall parachute jump.

Note that this was a very different time that an 11 year old would be allowed to attempt unaccompanied free-fall.

Experienced jumper - someone who has made mistakes more often than I have and lived.

[377 21]

Re: the hospital photo.

Nick Piantanida was one hell of brave guy who just had fatal bad luck with equipment. USAF Col. Joe Kittinger did succeed in a high altitude balloon jump, but he had the enormous technical and financial resources of the USAF behind him. Kittinger still gets tons of attention for his feat and he deserves it. Nick, unfortunately, is one of skydiving's forgotten heroes.

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[wolfriverjoe 1,346]

Serious Question- Does anyone know how much difference there would be between the NB6
Cooper used and an Airforce AF-28 with a 28ft C-9 (DOM 1952)? PM me if you want the reason or if you don't want to waste bandwidth posting the answer.

Jo- The training dummy reserve (according to the Parachutist article that I still can't find) was a container (bag) that closed normally along with a canopy that had several panels cut out and then resewn (think of an umbrella with several sections removed). The lines were still there. The old reserves had to be scopped out of the bag and thrown upward to deploy. Training back then included practicing this on the ground. Cossey set up the training dummy so that he could quickly fold up and stuff the canopy into the container to reduce the waiting time between students. Packing full size canopies takes careful folding and quite a lot of "stuffing" effort.

Ckret- Ok, I'll have to agree that he didn't create extra bags from the dummy reserve. Snowmmans thoughts about hooking it onto the NB6 got me thinking. My biggest reason for trying to "make it fit" was the fact that none of that stuff has ever been found.

Yes, I knew as I was writing it that "come on people, can't we all get along" was futile, but the bickering annoys me. Especially when the trigger is a misunderstood joke (you and LisaMarie was; Mr smartypants FBI agent and Delusional skydivers both weren't). If you want a great example of this, go on the general skydiving forum and read the 100th jump thread.
Yes, you and everyone else is a human being, but sometimes too many people take this crap way too seriously. Oh well, I just need to practice my patience and acceptance.

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I had to hack into DZ.com and take over everyone's account for 37 milliseconds (I didn't look at private photos, although I didn't know so many of you guys out there jumped in panties?)

Snowmman- Look closer at the pictures. When I jump naked, I don't want to be stuffed into a Cessna 182 for 45 minutes with 4 3 other naked guys(4 total). We wear panties on the plane because they can be torn off right before jumping without screwing around with the harnesses. Duh! And never go head-down naked. Things flap in the high-speed relative wind and it hurts.

"There are NO situations which do not call for a French Maid outfit." Lucky McSwervy

"~ya don't GET old by being weak & stupid!" - Airtwardo

[lisamariewillbe 1]

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Mr smartypants FBI agent and Delusional skydivers both weren't

Actually my Mister Smartypants comment wasnt a joke, nor was it being mean, have ya ever had a conversation with him? The dude is smart as can be.

Sudsy Fist: i don't think i'd ever say this
Sudsy Fist: but you're looking damn sudsydoable in this

[skyjack71 0]

Can any of you identify the uniform worn by this man in 1979.
I have blacked out his face.

What airline uniform do you think this is and what would his rank be ?
Note the bar or bars on his cuff.[/b

Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber

[georger 197]

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Cooper parted out the good and kept the bad.

This leads me to think he was a novice, that’s all I am saying Skippy, not that he was.

All I am saying is that the facts seem to point away from genius.

And yes there are many facts and the majority of them point away from well a planned expert.

I have tried to keep things light with you.

Did Cooper keep the bad, or did he part it out too?? Everyone locks on to the 30' or so of paracord that was cut from the usable reserve, and forgets all the cord and canopy material from the training dummy? According to Sluggo's timetable he had over 30 minutes from the time Tina went forward until the estimated jump time. I could rig up some pretty secure "transport containers" and attach them well enough (or at least think so) in that time.

REPLY#

30 mins is about right - relevant passages from the
PI Transcript below:


T1
7:42 pm t1
305: MSP FLT OPS this is 305 outbound Seattle 14 miles (out) on V23.
Seattle he is already trying to get the door down. Stewardess (Mucklow)
is with us (in cockpit). He cannot get the stairs down.
305: We now have an aft stair lite on.
MSP: Roger.305.


7:44.22 SEAR2 Northwest 305 advise if you change altitudes, over.
….. 305 OK, we will hold at 7000 and we got the back steps down now
and it looks like we are not going to be able to climb any
more so we will hold at 7000.

7:48 pm t1 *** [holding 7000 ft … strange exchange.]
305: Holding 160 indicated which is approx 5 knots above the BUG. Holding
7 thousand feet. Indicated 160. Fuel flow is 45 hundred.

7:48 pm t1 [now climbing above 7000]
305: GG to 15 degrees and beginning our climb.
MSP: Roger.

[Note@ 7:50-53 quick climb 7000 to 10,000 and hold. 170-180 knots. Crew on O2]

7:54 pm t1
MSP: As soon as reasonably sure the man has left the quicker you can land.
305: Roger. Miss Mucklow said he apparently has the knapsack around him
and thinks he will attempt a jump.
MSP: Roger. After leaving this freq go to 131.8 we have direct phone patch
There (to Company and FBI)
305: Roger.

[Note@ 7:54 10,000 holding 170-180 kts Ctl wants 305 to land asap as soon
as Cooper jumps. Muckow saw money bag on him looked like ready to jump]


7:57 pm t1 [ Mucklow describes bomb to Gnd Control …]
MSP: Have stewardess describe to you the brief case contents. Understand red dynamite sticks wire and battery
305: Mucklow: In briefcase left corner had 8 sticks of dynamite about 6 inches
long and 1 inch in diameter. Two rows of them then a wire out of there.
Then a battery lite, a flashlight battery only as thick as my arm and 8
inches long.
MSP: Roger.


T1 Transcript :
8:01 pm t1
MSP: What is altitude?
305: Now at 15 thousand. Indicator 160. Fuel flow 4000. 15 degree flap.
Gear down. Cqn will stay at 10,000 until he has left.
MSP: Roger.


8:05 pm t1 305:
305: Have attempted on two occasions to make contact with individual he
did not reply. Did not reply. Then used PA system and he said, “Everything is Ok”.
MSP: Roger.

[Note@ 8:05 +10,000 160-180kts 15* flp wheels down – “Everything is OK”]

Rataczack's testimony says he bailed 5-10 mins
after last contact at 20:05.





Would Tina have still been in back with him at takeoff if the stairs were down?? Or would he have sent her forward so his departure would not be known. The facts seem to indicate he planned on jumping very soon after takeoff. Familiarity with Seattle/Tacoma strengthens that assumption. That makes the nb6 a better choice, for reasons I already stated. Would he then have taken the briefcase and overcoat with him? That may not have been his original plan, but once he started to improvise, anything could happen.

Reply# He seems to have wanted Tina to assist
with getting the stairs down; maybe assumed she
was fimiliar with the system.

He had chosen Tina very early over Flo Schaffner.

*It is important to realise (whether Coop did or not)
that his departure is going to be noticed in any event. You cannot open a door or lower those stairs
without it producing a physical effect which is most
likely going to be noticed by the crew. Most experienced skydivers and pilots would realise that,
so any rouse to hide the jump is a mute point. NWA,
Boeing, McChord, Scott & Rat, etc all probably knew that, had discussed it, and may have been looking
for it. Instruments were being monitored.



I fully agree that Cooper was a novice. Some skydiving experience seems necessary. A total whuffo may come up with the plan, but I'd put good money that he would still have been on the back stairs at Reno. "Watch that first step-its a doozy" takes on a whole new meaning at 10 grand. And at night.


Reply# Dan Cooper, assumed age 47-52.

1919-1924 born
1937-1942 age 18
1939-1944 age 20
1945-1971 does what for 26 yrs post WWII ?
1971 hijacks an airplane

Georger

• Quote

[Ckret 0]

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Mr smartypants FBI agent and Delusional skydivers both weren't

Actually my Mister Smartypants comment wasnt a joke, nor was it being mean, have ya ever had a conversation with him? The dude is smart as can be.

What do you mean I'm smart?...

…what do you mean, you mean the way I talk? What? ...

…Smart how? What's smart about me?....

…You mean, let me understand this cause, ya know maybe it's me, I'm a little messed up maybe, but I'm Smart how, I mean smart like I'm a clown, I amuse you? I make you laugh, I'm here to amuse you? What do you mean smart, smart how? How am I smart?...

……you said it. You said I'm smart. How the %^$# am I smart, what the ^%$# is so smart about me? Tell me, tell me what's so smart!

[377 21]

a few questions about the transcript:

was "knapsack" referring to the rig or something which contained the money?

why would Cooper reply to inquiries from the cockpit and say "everything's ok" ? It tells everyone that he hasn't jumped yet which is valuable info to his pursuers.

oh, and do ya think Hillary can negotiate a truce between Ckret and Snowmman after she gets the Israelis and Palestinians to kiss and make up?

Your thoughts Georger?

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[Ckret 0]

The knapsack was part of Coopers original request for the money.

I do think Cooper replying that everything is ok was dumb, just like alot of things he did that night.

Not at war with anyone so there is no need for a truce.

Your thoughts Georger?