DB Cooper

[Orange1 0]

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Galen Cooks' altered composite become the only one seen by the public.

Why do you keep saying this? Is The Conspiracy going to ensure that every other composite mysteriously vanishes, including all those available on the internet? Do you not think Cooper novices who find his arguments interesting are going to start searching the net to see what else they can find?

I am more convinced than ever that you should start a blog. Other than the teenagers you deride and the serious blogs associated with reputable sites, another favorite blogger is the conspiracy theorist. It's perfect for you.

Back to the ticket. The coupon is pulled off for each flight leg as the boarding pass. Most people would check that their ticket was correct in the days when they were handwritten. Especially if Cooper had a one-leg ticket, there is a good chance there would have been fingerprints on it as it would have been the top coupon. The only reason I am banging on about this is YOUR insistence that there would not be any prints on it, for reasons that seem ... flimsy at best. I find it curious that you claim to be so sure of this fact while admitting to being unsure about exactly how the tickets, I can recall clearly how that ticket system worked. There were folios for I think 5 legs of flights, the top was handwritten, the rest were carbons, and right at the end was a carbon that was VOID - NOT GOOD FOR PASSAGE (which was basically what you got to keep as your souvenir/record of the flight).

Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.

[lisamariewillbe 1]

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Wow, talk about two extremes, two people joined into the fray recently, Lisa, who posts well into the 200’s a month and Shredder, who post 3 times a year. Get into the game son!!!!!

Oh wait, you did.

I don’t think there were any restrictions to bringing jump equipment on a plane but it would have brought attention to Cooper. I am sure his plan was to remain anonymous until the moment he passed his note and then to a very large degree only reveal himself to as few as possible.

You brought up a good point; if you study the McCoy case you will find how someone with jump experience does the crime. If you study the Cooper case you will find how someone who did not have jump experience does the crime.

Many think Cooper and McCoy are one in the same because of the similarities in their crimes. However, the only similarities are the fact they both chose the same conduit for their extortion. The actual escape or the part of the plan that is most vital were carried out far different, one by an experienced jumper the other by a novice if even that.

Hijackings in the late 60’s and early 70’s were very common; at one point, on average there were approximately 2 to 3 a month. It took very little sophistication to actually make a demand and be successful in that part of your plan. It was no secret that the airlines would comply and deal with the outcome later once the plane and passengers were safe.

The tough part is getting away and the proof is that out of the 100’s of hijackings the Cooper case is the only unsolved one. The FBI has an approximate 99.99634% solve rate when it comes to hijackings.

Hey you are only allowed one reference to my post numbers per thread, maybe if youd listen to me and go jump then you would have reason to go into other threads and then you can refer to my jump numbers compared to my post numbers...

And Ill also note that you forgot to listen to me that Cooper IS a skydiver, jeesh Special Agent Wuffo. How many wuffos think skydiving is something they can just go and do?

FBI will never solve this case, not even a smarty pants agent like you. First off to much time has passed, second off if you solved it youd lose something. Its like sexual fantaseys, you think they are a great idea, then you go and try it and next thing you know your in the E.R. trying to explain to a doctor why such and such got stuck in that place and why the camera man is still laughing... Its just not something you want nor can have.

To Jo - High five on the pulling silver comment, come on snowmann , top that one, you yourself has to admit that was classic.

And now to Jo, Id like to say it seems you are convinced that Duane is DB, that you feel you have done all you can to prove it. That being said it appears that the FBI does not follow that belief and although I can imagine that would be upsetting to you, that does not mean you have to follow that. If anything Id think youd want him to not be DB, even though he is this weird hero icon to some skydivers what he did was a criminal act that was not only stupid but wrong on every level. Do you want to spend the rest of your life trying to prove the man you loved was in fact a terrorist? What will that do for you? For your heart? And for Duanes memory? Holy batman spuldge I just got to girly for even me...

Anyways carry on folks, I am still highly entertained with this thread.

Sudsy Fist: i don't think i'd ever say this
Sudsy Fist: but you're looking damn sudsydoable in this

[wolfriverjoe 1,353]

377- You bet it would change their status (and whole outlook on life) My best 1st jump story: Several women came out to do tandems. They worked together and apparently came up with the idea at the bar after work. One was very nervous, looked like she wanted to back out, but was unwilling to "be chicken". I was catching tandems that day, and when she landed she said (IIRC) "Oh my God, that was so awesome! I see why you guys do this! I am NEVER going to do it again, but I see why you do it!"

Ckret is NOT Johnny Utah. I watched the Bank Robber Nickname video and he has more than 2 expressions on his face and never says "whoa". For his wife's sake, I hope he isn't James Bond. You want to know who he really is? Ephram Zimblast Jr. from the very old "FBI Story" TV show. Even looks like him.

Georger- My "skydivers can fly" speech was more to point out the differences we have from other posters. Sluggo and Snowmman have made comments about us (That I took as kind teasing and gentle jokes-however, others took great offense) and I wanted to voice my opinion. It gives you a different perspective, but is not for everyone. I don't think Cooper considered any of this during his planning. I believe he only saw it as a method of escape. I believe he planned on jumping right away, and thought the flight crew wouldn't know when he jumped. If (as he originally asked) they went to Mexico before realizing he was gone, he would have a serious head start on the search. When the steps weren't down on takeoff, he had to improvise.

The "bring your own rig vs have the FBI get them" was discussed quite a while back. Someone who is better at searching than I may point it out.
In short- Bring your own gives gear you are familiar with, but if you leave it where it can be found gives FBI a trail to follow. If he didn't have his own, getting it would be difficult (no E-Bay back then) and too big a chance of seller figuring out what happened.
Having FBI provide gear makes it untraceable, 2 rigs makes FBI think you are going to make crewmember jump with you (reduces chance for sabotage).
The Pioneer might not have a seal on it, Cooper would have no idea who packed it (or how), and it may have had a large warning label about deplying in excess of 150mph.
I was taught how to do a gear check very early, and there's not much else he could have done. Someone (Guru312?) brought up the near impossibility of reclosing the nb6 on the plane without special tools and knowledge. (Tosaw's account of Cooper opening and inspecting it is highly suspect, and so are the pills)

Snowmman- The Parachutist article I mentioned earlier (still can't find it) talked about the nb6. No sleeve. Good for higher speed openings. Openings described using words like "brutal" , "vicious", and "painful". There is a story at my DZ about a jumper using one of the pilot rigs (pilots wear emergency bailout rigs because the door opens). He wanted to get a jump on a round. He pulled right away to have deployment speed as low as possible - didn't want to get to terminal. Opening shock took his shoes off. I can't swear this is true (deliberately jumping energency rigs is not legal), but that's the story. When I fly the plane, using the emergency rig is truly a last resort.
I can't say for sure, but the harness adjustments aren't that complicated. 2 leg straps and a chest strap. 1st jump course covers making sure leg straps are even (you need to be level in the harness) and the connectors are pretty intuitive. If (as I believe) Cooper had a few jumps, getting into the rig wouldn't be too hard.
Ok, this is long enough. BTW Lisamariewillbe is right. This is a highly entertaining thread.

"There are NO situations which do not call for a French Maid outfit." Lucky McSwervy

"~ya don't GET old by being weak & stupid!" - Airtwardo

[377 21]

Lisamariewillbe wrote:

Quote

its like sexual fantaseys, you think they are a great idea, then you go and try it and next thing you know your in the E.R. trying to explain to a doctor why such and such got stuck in that place

Lisamarie,

After reading your statement above, I think the terms line twists, streamer and spinning malfunction have completely new meanings when they refer to your activities.

Don't pound too hard on Ckret. He is the only FBI SA who has shown an interest in conversing with skydivers on a subject of mutual interest rather than arresting them on a federal warrant. He also has a clever ironic sense of humor, something many of his bureau colleagues are completely lacking. I do, however, agree with you that he needs to jump.

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[Ckret 0]

Lisa,

You're a breath of fresh air, please keep blowing. By the way, OVER 200 post a month, 200 post, 200 post, 200 post.......

Now we have to solve the case, no challenge shall go unanswered, get ready to feel the wuffo heat. Don't worry, it not all that hot but I like to pound my chest and pretend I live on the edge.

River,

"If the FBI provides the chutes they are untraceable."

Really, i know what you checked out of the library last month, and it's late two days. The FBI knew exactly what Cooper had because we gave it to him. If you wanted something untraceable you certainty wouldn't want to use something the FBI gave to you. You have know idea how we would monkey with it before you would get it in your hands on it.

[377 21]

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River,

"If the FBI provides the chutes they are untraceable."

Really, i know what you checked out of the library last month, and it's late two days. The FBI knew exactly what Cooper had because we gave it to him. If you wanted something untraceable you certainty wouldn't want to use something the FBI gave to you. You have know idea how we would monkey with it before you would get it in your hands on it.

http://www.aiaa.org/content.cfm?pageid=406&gTable=mtgpaper&gID=93063

Even in 71 the USAF had reasonably small solid state beacon transmitters for chutes, like the URT 21.

http://oai.dtic.mil/oai/oai?verb=getRecord&metadataPrefix=html&identifier=AD0630190

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[377 21]

"Really, i know what you checked out of the library last month, and it's late two days. "

OK, now I know why Duane just annotated that Cooper book in the library rather than checking it out.

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[Ckret 0]

Wolfriver stated:

"I was taught how to do a gear check very early, and there's not much else he could have done. Someone (Guru312?) brought up the near impossibility of reclosing the nb6 on the plane without special tools and knowledge. (Tosaw's account of Cooper opening and inspecting it is highly suspect, and so are the pills)"

Exactly, this is one of the biggest clues we have that Cooper was a novice at best. All he had to do is touch the dummy reserve he jumped with to know there was something wrong with it. It only had half a canopy in the container. the container would have been soft to the touch, spongy.

So the gear comes on the plane; as a jumper what’s one of the first things you do? You look it over, you give it at least a quick inspection.

When you realize you are going to have to use one of the reserve containers to pack the money in, what do you do? Do you just grab one with no thought and start cutting. No, you leave the best one your inspection tells you is the best and cannibalize the other.

He would have instantly recognized the dummy container the moment he touched it and that is the one he would have taken apart, if he had experience.

[Ckret 0]

Lisa wrote:

"And Ill also note that you forgot to listen to me that Cooper IS a skydiver, jeesh Special Agent Wuffo. How many wuffos think skydiving is something they can just go and do?"

Exactly one, Daniel Cooper.

[377 21]

I have to agree that it would have been near impossible for Cooper to close an unextended NB6 container with a 28 ft C 9 canopy without tools of some kind. TIGHT TIGHT TIGHT. Tight enough to almost guarantee a very difficult pull. You could rig cord to serve as a closing aid, but there is no evidence that he even opened the NB6 container.

His choices related to gear scream non jumper to me. He made several choices, all consistent with zero skydiving experience. That's what makes Galen's #1 suspect (Wolfgang) doubtful as Cooper. He had lots of parachuting experience, too much to have made the gear choices Cooper made, unless he was trying to conceal his knowledge by deliberately making whuffo-like choices.

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[wolfriverjoe 1,353]

Ckret- Yes, if the FBI gave him the gear, they knew exactly what he had. BUT- If found after the jump, there wouldn't be anything about it to tell you who Cooper was. That was my "untraceable" point. My personal gear has my name and address on it. I'm not going to commit any crimes using something that can be traced back to me that easily.
I agree that he was probably a novice at best. "Knew just enough to be dangerous" has been said more than once. And the number of whuffos who think all they have to do is jump and pull the cord? HA. The standard answer "its not as easy as it looks, try a tandem and see" usually shuts them up one way or another.
If the FBI put tracers in the gear, why wasn't it found Or is it a case of "that was then, this is now"?
BTW-you have the wrong wolfriverjoe. Its a pretty common name. I returned "The Virginian" to the library well ahead of time. I had misread the title.

"There are NO situations which do not call for a French Maid outfit." Lucky McSwervy

"~ya don't GET old by being weak & stupid!" - Airtwardo

[skyjack71 0]

Clret said:

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Exactly one, Daniel Cooper.

There was a Cooper in Tx whose brother claimed was Cooper.
This Cooper had a military background and I saw a picture that looked nothing like "Cooper" to me. Could this be Ckret's Secret?

I don't remember the details of the article - but I did try to contact the family without success...at that time. The background seemed to be on target and if I remember right he may have owed some gambling money. Don't quote me on that - I am just using my memory and nothing else.

Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber

[skyjack71 0]

Snowmman you must have taken a weekend off. Hope you are not ill, but the hunting season has opened in parts of the country - or maybe you have been glued to football games all weekend. Uhh OHh I forgot - a lot of silver pulling happenings.

Whatever? How about finding us that article on D. Cooper out of Texas. Maybe we can get a heads up on Ckrets' new evidence before it hits the Media.

Ckret you are married right? You and Lisa Marie are becoming an item....just part of the job - huh?

How about that Snowwman I just found it ALL by myself. Now if I can just make it turn blue.
www.katu.com/news/local/17070951.html

Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber

[AggieDave 6]

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Ckret you are married right? You and Lisa Marie are becoming an item....just part of the job - huh?

Seriously? Your delusional rantings aren't getting the response you want them to anymore, so you personally attack a Federal Agent's ethics?

Wow.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[Ckret 0]

Aggie,

where have you been? welcome back. I don't know if she was joking or not. She does not know me personally, it's easy to get things confused. I have been doing this for almost 20 years and I learned long ago that people are raging against the "man" not Larry Carr. I can assure all of you, Larry Carr is not the "man" as much as he would like to think so.

377,

I know I promised you something new soon but that is not going to happen for a bit. There will, however, be some things in the very near future, in fact it is being filmed tomorrow and will be ready by the 24th. It should open the door for some new discussion.

[AggieDave 6]

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Aggie,

where have you been? welcome back. I don't know if she was joking or not. She does not know me personally, it's easy to get things confused. I have been doing this for almost 20 years and I learned long ago that people are raging against the "man" not Larry Carr. I can assure all of you, Larry Carr is not the "man" as much as he would like to think so.

I've been reading and watching this thread continue to slowly evolve. Well, "evolve" is being used loosely, its sort of like a snake eating its self!

I understand the attacks are not necessarily at you personally, most of the time; however, over the past year it has appeared to have become attacks aimed personally against you. Its saddening, since you were not only handed this case, but have to delve into the trenches of conspiracy theory (mental health) warfare! To top it off, it appears you handle these conditions with grace and civility, which I tip my hat, you're obviously good at conducting yourself well in those regards.

Some day this case may be solved. We may actually find that it was truly Jimmy Hoffa, impersonating Elvis, wearing a suit made from one of the Greys (now stationed under Denver International).

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[snowmman 3]

Chime in where I'm misunderstanding.

on page 434 of The Parachute Manual, Poynter, he presents a "right hand outboard pull" mod. I believe in subsequent pages he's showing how to make the mod. (up to page 440?)

On page 434 he goes thru the benefits. More stability during the pull, and interestingly, claims an easier pull...i.e. less likely to require a two handed pull than a cross chest pull.
Also, if two hands required, still stable as ripcord is only 1 3/4" in. farther from body center.

Given that a 28' canopy was packed in the NB-6, causing a "hard pull"...it seems reasonable to believe the reason for Cossey's apparent right hand pull mod (based on Ckret's post this year) was more likely to do with getting a stronger pull, than the reasons posted before.

How many people have used a right hand pull mod like this? (I don't know if right hand pull is already typical or not in non-emergency parachutes) Poynter claims "the jumper is able to exert more leverage pushing away from the shoulder than pulling across the chest"

http://books.google.com/books?id=BKTuTXrXQu0C&pg=PA434

When people say "hard pull" it's very subjective and not taking into consideration the rig setup..i.e. people aren't talking about lbs (since they are unknown).

A simple question. Has anyone out there done a right hand outboard pull on a NB-6 with a 28' canopy?
I'm surprised people didn't recognize the description of Cossey's mod before when we discussed it. Am I misunderstanding Poynter?

Poynter also notes that the ripcord is on the left inboard side on emergency parachutes to protect the handle against accidental activation, (edit) Oh I see..I guess inboard for less accidental, but assumes right hand cross chest..so left hand inboard mount...

page 176 is useful also. Has a picture of a model wearing a NB-6. Can see exactly what it looked like while Cooper was wearing it. Nice front and back shots. (top left of page)
http://books.google.com/books?id=BKTuTXrXQu0C&pg=PA176

Chest seems loose to my tastes but maybe that's good enough?

(edit) I'm reminded of NickDG's sig about things going bad when 20-year-olds needed some place to go to have their oil changed.
The thought that comes to mind: "I knew things were bad when I saw skydivers kissing FBI ass"

[wolfriverjoe 1,353]

I don't see any misunderstanding. I think nobody recognized the modification because its an old, old rig used for emergencies, not sport jumping. Same answer when nobody answers about making an right-hand outboard pull on one. I've only heard one story about a bailout rig being used and I'm not sure if its true or not-see my post from earlier today.
Chest strap isn't load bearing. All it does is keep shoulder straps from slipping out and off. Tight is not necessary.

"There are NO situations which do not call for a French Maid outfit." Lucky McSwervy

"~ya don't GET old by being weak & stupid!" - Airtwardo

[snowmman 3]

Quote

I don't see any misunderstanding. I think nobody recognized the modification because its an old, old rig used for emergencies, not sport jumping. Same answer when nobody answers about making an right-hand outboard pull on one. I've only heard one story about a bailout rig being used and I'm not sure if its true or not-see my post from earlier today.
Chest strap isn't load bearing. All it does is keep shoulder straps from slipping out and off. Tight is not necessary.

thanks wolf. Note your response makes it hard to understand why to listen to all the "hard pull" posts.

basically you're pointing out "most don't know".

(edit) I know I don't. Single arm straight chest push out, maybe 40-50 lbs for most anyone? I'm thinking about half of a bench press capability. Maybe cut it down cause of stress/instability etc. Be nice to relate that to estimated fish scale measurement, if that's the right comparison.

[georger 197]

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So you were flying around at 10K - bet I know why.

Reply^ I'll bet you dont. I was in the area over
Sedona AZ .... a week of vacation & freedom attending a relatives wedding... a long ay from Tina Bar. Satisfied?

Georger



Galen Cook announces his new book and Agent CARR is going to present his NEW evidence...in the same hour. This should be interesting.

Carr had told us that someone was going to do a re-creation a long ago - just hope they keep it honest regarding the time line. The FBI would love nothing more than to put Cooper into the brink.

Galen Cooks' altered composite become the only one seen by the public. I have an official FBI composite that IS NOT altered.

[georger 197]

And Ill also note that you forgot to listen to me that Cooper IS a skydiver, jeesh Special Agent Wuffo.

Reply: Care to defend that?

Georger

[georger 197]

Quote

377- You bet it would change their status (and whole outlook on life) My best 1st jump story: Several women came out to do tandems. They worked together and apparently came up with the idea at the bar after work. One was very nervous, looked like she wanted to back out, but was unwilling to "be chicken". I was catching tandems that day, and when she landed she said (IIRC) "Oh my God, that was so awesome! I see why you guys do this! I am NEVER going to do it again, but I see why you do it!"

Ckret is NOT Johnny Utah. I watched the Bank Robber Nickname video and he has more than 2 expressions on his face and never says "whoa". For his wife's sake, I hope he isn't James Bond. You want to know who he really is? Ephram Zimblast Jr. from the very old "FBI Story" TV show. Even looks like him.

Georger- My "skydivers can fly" speech was more to point out the differences we have from other posters. Sluggo and Snowmman have made comments about us (That I took as kind teasing and gentle jokes-however, others took great offense) and I wanted to voice my opinion. It gives you a different perspective, but is not for everyone. I don't think Cooper considered any of this during his planning. I believe he only saw it as a method of escape. I believe he planned on jumping right away, and thought the flight crew wouldn't know when he jumped. If (as he originally asked) they went to Mexico before realizing he was gone, he would have a serious head start on the search. When the steps weren't down on takeoff, he had to improvise.

The "bring your own rig vs have the FBI get them" was discussed quite a while back. Someone who is better at searching than I may point it out.
In short- Bring your own gives gear you are familiar with, but if you leave it where it can be found gives FBI a trail to follow. If he didn't have his own, getting it would be difficult (no E-Bay back then) and too big a chance of seller figuring out what happened.
Having FBI provide gear makes it untraceable, 2 rigs makes FBI think you are going to make crewmember jump with you (reduces chance for sabotage).
The Pioneer might not have a seal on it, Cooper would have no idea who packed it (or how), and it may have had a large warning label about deplying in excess of 150mph.
I was taught how to do a gear check very early, and there's not much else he could have done. Someone (Guru312?) brought up the near impossibility of reclosing the nb6 on the plane without special tools and knowledge. (Tosaw's account of Cooper opening and inspecting it is highly suspect, and so are the pills)

Snowmman- The Parachutist article I mentioned earlier (still can't find it) talked about the nb6. No sleeve. Good for higher speed openings. Openings described using words like "brutal" , "vicious", and "painful". There is a story at my DZ about a jumper using one of the pilot rigs (pilots wear emergency bailout rigs because the door opens). He wanted to get a jump on a round. He pulled right away to have deployment speed as low as possible - didn't want to get to terminal. Opening shock took his shoes off. I can't swear this is true (deliberately jumping energency rigs is not legal), but that's the story. When I fly the plane, using the emergency rig is truly a last resort.
I can't say for sure, but the harness adjustments aren't that complicated. 2 leg straps and a chest strap. 1st jump course covers making sure leg straps are even (you need to be level in the harness) and the connectors are pretty intuitive. If (as I believe) Cooper had a few jumps, getting into the rig wouldn't be too hard.
Ok, this is long enough. BTW Lisamariewillbe is right. This is a highly entertaining thread.

very good post! Thanks.

[georger 197]

Really, i know what you checked out of the library last month, and it's late two days. The FBI knew exactly what Cooper had because we gave it to him. If you wanted something untraceable you certainty wouldn't want to use something the FBI gave to you. You have know idea how we would monkey with it before you would get it in your hands on it.

[georger 197]

Quote

Quote

River,

"If the FBI provides the chutes they are untraceable."

Really, i know what you checked out of the library last month, and it's late two days. The FBI knew exactly what Cooper had because we gave it to him. If you wanted something untraceable you certainty wouldn't want to use something the FBI gave to you. You have know idea how we would monkey with it before you would get it in your hands on it.

http://www.aiaa.org/content.cfm?pageid=406&gTable=mtgpaper&gID=93063

Even in 71 the USAF had reasonably small solid state beacon transmitters for chutes, like the URT 21.

http://oai.dtic.mil/oai/oai?verb=getRecord&metadataPrefix=html&identifier=AD0630190

377

Cooper got rid of those with his Capt Video field strength meter .... or, they shreded as they went through the fans with Cooper.

[377 21]

re hard ripcord pulls...

There is more to it than just pull force needed to dislodge the pins from the cones. When a lot of force is applied and nothing happens the jumper's adrenaline spikes and he starts to panic a bit. AM I PULLING ON THE WRONG THING? Add night, tumbling, cold, scared, wet and you have a situation that can spin out of control really fast. It can cause a jumper to discard the ripcord handle and start pulling on webbing or something else that is not going to open the container flaps no matter how hard you pull.

Sure, the smart thing is to just pull harder. Even a so called hard pull isn't normally going to take an impossible amount of force... but that logic can escape the mind of a panicky jumper.

I had two VERY hard pulls on surplus gear back in 68. I was jumping a sleeved C 9 packed in an unextended surplus rental rig. Even though I was prepared for the second one, it still was scary. I was taught to give it two tries then go for my reserve. I probably gave it five and might have stupidly gone to a dozen had it not opened on the fifth, who knows? That is not clear thinking. Fear clouds good judgment. A hard pull definitely starts the adrenaline going. It can spiral downhill fast from that point.

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.