DB Cooper

[Ckret 0]

No prints from the ticket.

You're missing the point about the spongy reserve; it is not a small detail. The point is that anyone with experience would know something was wrong the moment they picked it up.

That’s all I am saying about the "spongy" reserve, nothing more. So, we have a fact about a piece of equipment.

Now, what does that fact tell us? If you inspected the equipment brought onboard (and anyone making this jump would) and one piece of it was obviously not functional (to an experienced jumper), that is the first piece you would logically take apart as surplus.

Because Cooper didn’t do this, what does it say about him? To me it is another piece of evidence that says non-jumper.

As far as the overcoat goes, it was not found on the plane, so he either wore it or threw it out. Same goes for the reserve, he either clipped it to the webbing of the NB6 harness or he threw it out of the plane.

I say he wore the coat and clipped the reserve to the harness. The reason is that he left the tie, the reserve container, the reserve chute and the Pioneer on the plane. It would make no sense to throw some but not all.

The only thing he threw out was the briefcase, which he told Tina he would.

[lisamariewillbe 1]

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Snowmman you must have taken a weekend off. Hope you are not ill, but the hunting season has opened in parts of the country - or maybe you have been glued to football games all weekend. Uhh OHh I forgot - a lot of silver pulling happenings.

Whatever? How about finding us that article on D. Cooper out of Texas. Maybe we can get a heads up on Ckrets' new evidence before it hits the Media.

Ckret you are married right? You and Lisa Marie are becoming an item....just part of the job - huh?

How about that Snowwman I just found it ALL by myself. Now if I can just make it turn blue.
www.katu.com/news/local/17070951.html

I think thats rather uncalled for, regardless of me and him joking back and forth this man is an FBI agent trying to get a grasp of some part of DB, in hopes of solving a case. To refer to him and I in such a sense is rude and uncalled for. Its no longer banter, I know I lack class most times and I wear that stamp with pride however you just proved with that comment you to have low class.

I knew I should have responded to the banter / funny stuff first because now Im annoyed that you would attack an FBI agent on his integrity, esp when your trying to prove the man you were sleeping with may be a terrorist.

To Ckret - Wearing the grrrr face. And yes you may have provided him with the gear but you can only trace that from the dz you borrowed it from and until he jumped, you cant trace much.

Sudsy Fist: i don't think i'd ever say this
Sudsy Fist: but you're looking damn sudsydoable in this

[lisamariewillbe 1]

Maybe the stress of actually getting the FBI to meet his demands for the multiple rigs and such had him in a slight rush. The fact remains he left the partial reserve and took the other one. Personally Id think a wuffo wouldnt get past the talking about it phase where as a skydiver has the training and tools to at the very think he can do it.

Most skydivers I know have this particular type of ego, alphas ... so to speak. Someone who is not a skydiver would not think "ohhh I know, for 200 grand Ill jump from a plane, hmmm what is it they use chutes? Yea Ill get me a few of those and then its knees in the breeze" just doesnt seem possible to me.

Sudsy Fist: i don't think i'd ever say this
Sudsy Fist: but you're looking damn sudsydoable in this

[377 21]

"Terrorist?"` Lisamarie, you are correct, of course, but it kinda messes up the "folk hero" atmosphere we have been enjoying here.

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[377 21]

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I have no problem with there being a whuffo argument.
It's just no one's making it well, in a way I can understand. And if I don't understand it, I can't see why Ckret would understand it..
Is there like a secret whuffo flowchart that can't be revealed?

Yes, there is a secret Whuffo flowchart. I cannot reveal it though.

On the bailout beacon angle. If Cooper was a USAF flightcrew guy, he'd have known about them. He'd look for it in a military bailout rig that had not been civilianized and either try to remove or disable it... or just pick the sport rig which was far less likely to contain one. Many USAF aircraft at the time had the ARA 25 UHF automatic direction finder which could shoot a bearing on a bailout beacon signal in a second. Just tune to 243.0 MHz and turn the mode switch to ADF. Bingo. Look at your RMI and it will be pointing to the beacon. You could even operate it from an aircraft on the ground.

Paratroopers would be unfamiliar with bailout beacons. They are used in emergency aircraft egress systems, not Army Airborne gear.

I wonder where Cooper thought the gear would come from? A military base or a sport loft? The fact that he gave so little specificity in the rig requests makes me think non jumper. You'd sure want a sleeved canopy if you were making a high speed jump. Sounds like he just wanted chutes, you know, front and back ones. If he was an experienced jumper the "front and back" nomenclature is certainly a ruse to sound more like a Whuffo.

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

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[Ckret 0]

No one is saying Cooper didn't have experience with jump equipment. He most likely had lots of experience with emergency gear, he knew how to put it on and he knew how it functioned if he needed to use it in an emergency.

Cooper probably witnessed jumpers in action, had conversations with them. Cooper had just enough knowledge to make himself a danger to himself, not enough to actually pull it off.

[377 21]

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No one is saying Cooper didn't have experience with jump equipment. He most likely had lots of experience with emergency gear, he knew how to put it on and he knew how it functioned if he needed to use it in an emergency.

Who would have "lots" of experience with emergency gear besides riggers and escape system techs? Most flight crew in large military planes never think about chutes after their initial training. There are almost never emergency bailouts from military transport aircraft. Military C 135s (similar to Boeing 707s) have even stopped carrying chutes to save weight.

If Cooper had been say a crewman (loadmaster?) on a C 130 Herc he would know how to don a rig, tighten the straps, pull a ripcord and he would know basic parachute landing and survival techniques.

If he had used the term "interphone" rather than "intercom" that would be a strong pointer to military flight crew experience. I seem to recall that his alleged use of "interphone" was an unsubstaiated rumor.

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[snowmman 3]

thanks 377
My reading of news articles was that by Jan '72 they were putting beacons in the chutes they gave hijackers, but it's not clear if everyone in '72 got one, so there may have been a local availability issue for the FBI??

I forget which hijack it was, but I do remember reading an article where the beacon was used to successfully track a chute, but the hijacker wasn't there. Was it McCoy's where he pushed the FBI chutes out and used his own so they didn't find him? I forget and don't want to go look.

In any case, you said

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If he was an experienced jumper the "front and back" nomenclature is certainly a ruse to sound more like a Whuffo.

We don't know exactly what Cooper said. front and back is wrong. We do know that the messages relayed that showed up in the RTTY transcript was as follows. It's not clear if Cooper used the phrase "Chest Pack" or whether the crew or others introduced the phrase.

page 1 of the transcript has this exchange
(when it starts with 305, that's communication from the plane)

305 PSGR ADV IS RIHAKING ENRTE TO EA
STEW HAS BEEN HANDED NOTE REQST 2HND THSD
AND KNAPSACK BY 5PM SEA THIS AFTNN
WANTS 2 BAK PAK PARACHUTES
WANTS MONEY IN NEGOTBL AMERICAN CURRNCY
DENOMINATION OF BILLS NOT IMPORATANT
HAS BOMB IN BRIEF CASE AND ILL USE IT IF
ANYTHING IS DONE TO BLOCK HIS REQUEST
ENRTE TO SEA

then later:

page 2 of the transcripts
SEADD ARE IN CTC WITH LOCAL BANK AND
ARRANGING FOR THE MONEY ND WILL HAVE
THE TWO CHEST PACKS SOON ALREADY HAVE
THE TWO BACK PACKS


It seems Cooper really did want at least one chest chute.
Remember on page 15 of the stew notes, there were comments about how if they were waiting on the 2nd chest chute, that it was okay to just go with what they had.
i.e.

"If the case waiting for one chest chute go ahead + go down"

on page 11 of the stew notes, when Cooper is getting impatient waiting, but only the back? chutes mentioned:
"getting very impatient of the chutes.
2 bag [sic] packs
have money
money first"

[snowmman 3]

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Maybe the stress of actually getting the FBI to meet his demands for the multiple rigs and such had him in a slight rush. The fact remains he left the partial reserve and took the other one. Personally Id think a wuffo wouldnt get past the talking about it phase where as a skydiver has the training and tools to at the very think he can do it.

Most skydivers I know have this particular type of ego, alphas ... so to speak. Someone who is not a skydiver would not think "ohhh I know, for 200 grand Ill jump from a plane, hmmm what is it they use chutes? Yea Ill get me a few of those and then its knees in the breeze" just doesnt seem possible to me.

Lisa, you've not done your homework. Read up on McNally. And just because one's a USPA member, it doesn't mean you're not clueless: Read up on Heady.

[snowmman 3]

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No one is saying Cooper didn't have experience with jump equipment. He most likely had lots of experience with emergency gear, he knew how to put it on and he knew how it functioned if he needed to use it in an emergency.

Who would have "lots" of experience with emergency gear besides riggers and escape system techs? Most flight crew in large military planes never think about chutes after their initial training. There are almost never emergency bailouts from military transport aircraft. Military C 135s (similar to Boeing 707s) have even stopped carrying chutes to save weight.

If Cooper had been say a crewman (loadmaster?) on a C 130 Herc he would know how to don a rig, tighten the straps, pull a ripcord and he would know basic parachute landing and survival techniques.

If he had used the term "interphone" rather than "intercom" that would be a strong pointer to military flight crew experience. I seem to recall that his alleged use of "interphone" was an unsubstaiated rumor.

377

I think whuffo/non-whuffo is too strong a dichotomy. My sense is that people are using it to differentiate "active US-based 1971 sport jumper" vs everyone else, including non-jumpers.

What percentage of active US jumpers in 1962-64 were exposed to Pioneer rigs? (What Pioneer rig are we talking about anyhow? Ckret never said? Mark I was 1964? Mark II was 1969???

Are sport jumpers from early '60s considered whuffos in the Cooper context?

I'm totally confused.

[snowmman 3]

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Cooper probably witnessed jumpers in action, had conversations with them. Cooper had just enough knowledge to make himself a danger to himself, not enough to actually pull it off.

pretty black and white thinking.
It's amazing to think we give teenagers a license to drive a car at 60mph+! in heavy traffic.
Which requires more skill?

[Ckret 0]

We do know what he dictated to Schaffner:

I want $200,000 by 5:00PM in cash. Put it in a knapsack. I want two back parachutes and two front parachutes. When we land, I want a fuel truck ready to refuel. No funny stuff, or I'll do the job."

[377 21]

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I think whuffo/non-whuffo is too strong a dichotomy. My sense is that people are using it to differentiate "active US-based 1971 sport jumper" vs everyone else, including non-jumpers.

What percentage of active US jumpers in 1962-64 were exposed to Pioneer rigs. (What Pioneer rig are we talking about anyhow? Ckret never said? Mark I was 1964? Mark II was 1969???

Are sport jumpers from early '60s considered whuffos in the Cooper context?

I'm totally confused.

Snowmman,

I think MK 1 and 2 refer to the Paracommander canopy and not the Pioneer harness and container. Beatnik, who posts on other dropzone forums is an EXPERT on old gear. He is a rigger, current military and a skydiving gear historian extraordinaire. He rebuilds and jumps ANCIENT gear regularly, even the scary as hell stuff that NOBODY jumped after better gear hit the scene.

I suggest contacting him with gear questions. He is friendly and if he has the time he will probably help you out. Don't wait. With the antique suicide gear he jumps you just never know. Ask to see his recent canopy collision video. Two cutaways to round reserves. No fatalities but scary to watch.

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[snowmman 3]

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We do know what he dictated to Schaffner:

I want $200,000 by 5:00PM in cash. Put it in a knapsack. I want two back parachutes and two front parachutes. When we land, I want a fuel truck ready to refuel. No funny stuff, or I'll do the job."

good point, Ckret. I forgot that.
However, it's the only time "front" shows up in any of the Cooper evidence (transcripts). "chest" is used
from then on, right. (see my recent post)

There's always the possibility "front" was wrong in this transcription. Are there any other mentions of "front"?
I don't know.

[377 21]

If Cooper intended to jump right after take off why did he waste valuable time on refueling? The fueling delay was making him really uptight. Why didnt he just skip it? Was it important because it would mislead the cops into thinking he intended a long flight before jumping?

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[snowmman 3]

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If Cooper intended to jump right after take off why did he waste valuable time on refueling? The fueling delay was making him really uptight. Why didnt he just skip it? Was it important because it would mislead the cops into thinking he intended a long flight before jumping?

377

uhhh. He was a whuffo who knew enough to be a danger to himself? does that cover it?

[Ckret 0]

Pioneer type 226 sn 9/57 was left on the plane

[377 21]

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[An unusual but apparently correct use of the word "acquitted" above.

Some of us learnt the Queen's English But because I know most of you are American I have to watch my "spelling". So I have on a number of occasions spelt words that are (to me) incorrect, so the rest of you can recognize them. There was one ...ok...enough thread drift there.

Are you saying that Americans are Whuffos with respect to the Queen's English?

Back on topic, I wonder if any linguistic analysis has been done on Cooper's choice of words. Trouble is, we don't have an audio record so we don't really know the exact works he used. His alleged threat to "do the job" uses language I dont often hear around CA.

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[Ckret 0]

"If Cooper intended to jump right after take off why did he waste valuable time on refueling? The fueling delay was making him really uptight. Why didnt he just skip it? Was it important because it would mislead the cops into thinking he intended a long flight before jumping?

377"

I think that was absolutely part of his rouse, just like all of the back and forth about Mexico. He just thought they would refuel it quickly so no sweat off of his back, until the truck vapor locked. Now he is starting to think something is going on.

If everything worked out as Cooper wanted, he jumps just after takeoff and we don't find an empty plane until several hours later when it lands in Mexico.

He lands just south of Seattle, pays a taxi to take him where ever he wanted to go. He could have been well out of the area long before we would have found the empty plane. Also, if the stairs could have been locked at takeoff, we would have had no idea where or when he jumped.

[377 21]

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Pioneer type 226 sn 9/57 was left on the plane

I keep thinking Cooper couldn't have been a sport jumper. The Pioneer sport rig would certainly have a sleeve and that would make a BIG HUGE difference in slowing down deployment compared to an unsleeved C9 canopy. Why subject yourself to a painful and even dangerous slammer opening if you have a sport rig available? If you had stuff tied to you, opening shock is something you'd definitely want to minimize. Also, you could clip a reserve to the Pioneer rig, right?

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[snowmman 3]

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His alleged threat to "do the job" uses language I dont often hear around CA.

377

I think that prior mentions of "gangsta movie english" have muddied our thinking.

Does your thinking change if "do the job" is used this way:

"If he can't do the job, get rid of him and get someone who can"

[snowmman 3]

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Pioneer type 226 sn 9/57 was left on the plane

I keep thinking Cooper couldn't have been a sport jumper. The Pioneer sport rig would certainly have a sleeve and that would make a BIG HUGE difference in slowing down deployment compared to an unsleeved C9 canopy. Why subject yourself to a painful and even dangerous slammer opening if you have a sport rig available? If you had stuff tied to you, opening shock is something you'd definitely want to minimize. Also, you could clip a reserve to the Pioneer rig, right?

377

Didn't the comment complaining about the chute delay "mcchord is only 20 minutes away" betray an expectation that the chutes would come from military base? If so, then the Pioneer would be something not part of the initial plan/expectation..i.e. a wild card.

Yeah, it might have been superior, but if you had planned it thru with certain expectations, you might not adjust on the fly. You see something like what you expected, and you grab it. Done.

If Cooper was expecting sport chutes in his initial plan, would he have said "it's only 20 minutes to Issaquah?"

If he was whuffo, would he have said "oh, is it hard to get chutes?"

[lisamariewillbe 1]

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Maybe the stress of actually getting the FBI to meet his demands for the multiple rigs and such had him in a slight rush. The fact remains he left the partial reserve and took the other one. Personally Id think a wuffo wouldnt get past the talking about it phase where as a skydiver has the training and tools to at the very think he can do it.

Most skydivers I know have this particular type of ego, alphas ... so to speak. Someone who is not a skydiver would not think "ohhh I know, for 200 grand Ill jump from a plane, hmmm what is it they use chutes? Yea Ill get me a few of those and then its knees in the breeze" just doesnt seem possible to me.

Lisa, you've not done your homework. Read up on McNally. Read up on Heady.

Its Lisamarie, so google search on them? Ive heard the names. And nope I havent done my homework on many aspects hence why I keep up with the thread but hes my weird icon folk hero I can, no matter the evidence think and know he survived and is an experienced SD.

Oh and Im not a USPA member anymore ... what other fast insults ya got for me. Just because someones read all the data does not mean they know what it feels like to skydive nor does reading about it give even a small glimpse to what life is like after jumping.

Sudsy Fist: i don't think i'd ever say this
Sudsy Fist: but you're looking damn sudsydoable in this

[snowmman 3]

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Maybe the stress of actually getting the FBI to meet his demands for the multiple rigs and such had him in a slight rush. The fact remains he left the partial reserve and took the other one. Personally Id think a wuffo wouldnt get past the talking about it phase where as a skydiver has the training and tools to at the very think he can do it.

Most skydivers I know have this particular type of ego, alphas ... so to speak. Someone who is not a skydiver would not think "ohhh I know, for 200 grand Ill jump from a plane, hmmm what is it they use chutes? Yea Ill get me a few of those and then its knees in the breeze" just doesnt seem possible to me.

Lisa, you've not done your homework. Read up on McNally. Read up on Heady.

Its Lisamarie, so google search on them? Ive heard the names. And nope I havent done my homework on many aspects hence why I keep up with the thread but hes my weird icon folk hero I can, no matter the evidence think and know he survived and is an experienced SD.

Oh and Im not a USPA member anymore ... what other fast insults ya got for me. Just because someones read all the data does not mean they know what it feels like to skydive nor does reading about it give even a small glimpse to what life is like after jumping.

I had re-editted my post because I thought it first read like I was referring to you. I was referring to Heady. I was actually making a leap saying Heady was up to date USPA, but you can read stuff I posted and decide for yourself. Just search for Heady or McNally, posts from snowmman.

I guess I'm not going to apologize, because unintended insults are two-way blame. Receiver thinks a certain way about Sender. Sender maybe isn't sensitive enough to Receiver.

Maybe this post itself is an insult. Who knows. At a certain point, I should just stop.

(edit) attached clarity, to avoid getting gutted with a broken beer bottle in a bar by lisa.

[lisamariewillbe 1]

Ahhh I see, Im gonna go read on that and then Im sure Ill have more questions. Im not sensitive just tend to play insult tag cause thats fun sometimes and Im not knowledgeable on the facts of this case I know what I think, and I listen to the evidence. Ill shut up so I can go seach Heady and McNally, thanks...

Sudsy Fist: i don't think i'd ever say this
Sudsy Fist: but you're looking damn sudsydoable in this