toggle stuck

[skycat 0]

Quote

Freebird, if you cut the line above the little metal guide ring on the riser.
--------------------------------
Plus you will only have to replace the lower section of your brake line set, which is relatively simple to repair, and probably cheaper than a reserve repack, not that money comes into this at all

Actually if you cut above that little ring you will be cutting the main part of the stearing line and will need the line from the brake setting to the cascades replaced. Not sure of the cost on this but could be upwards in the range of a repack depending on the rigger. On the other hand it still will be alot cheaper than if you toss your handles when you cutaway and have to replace them.

[freebird 0]

I am going to watch my rig being put togather and learn all of the componets of my rig. I will let someone show me exactly where I would need to cut if I made that decsion. If I ever have any doubt about having a landable canopy...I will chop it at my hard deck (2500)
The longer you wait ........the more sense you get.

[nacmacfeegle 0]

Not on my spectre Skycat, I have a two part steering line set up I think....the lower section is replaceable without having to redo the entire brake lines up to and including the cascades.
I figured this was designed like this because this is the section of line that sees the worst wear and tear. But now you mention it, I'm not 100% sure where the split is but I definitely have a two piece brake line. This was standard (I didn't specifically request it) from PD.
But like I said, money shouldn't come into the decision making process here.
Cya
D

[skycat 0]

I'm bored so, really I'm not argueing with you .......
Anyway, I did a diagram of the steering lines I've had on all my canopies and all the safires I've seen come to Derek's place for the performance option.
Crossfire 104
Crossfire 116
Sabre 135
Sabre 150
Sabre 170
Safire 109-189

[Zennie 0]

Quote

I have seen people with problems using their slinks

***Raises hand***
My slider will pop a toggle every now & then.
"Zero Tolerance: the politically correct term for zero thought, zero common sense."

[jdhill 0]

I'm not looking at my canopy right now, but I think generally if not always, when you have an upper and lower control line configuration (not all canopies do), the separation point is at the deployment setting point... the loop that you put you toggle through is the loop that connects upper and lower... given that I think you would end up cutting the upper to free the line.
Josh
http://www.aerialfusion.com

[diverdriver 5]

And this very thing has caused more than one violent line twisting spin. One ended with the jumper just dumping the reserve without cutting away because the twists involved the risers and trapped the cutaway cables. This jumper got wrapped by the deploying freebag and had to grab it and toss it. It deployed clean and then when the tension was off the main was able to perform the cutaway. Scary.
That's why we are pushing everyone to get the Metal Hardhousing inserts for the risers and make sure that the risers you have do NOT have an exposed toggle knub. Relative Workshop has just about the best riser out there now. Great way to stow toggles and excess line.
Chris

[nacmacfeegle 0]

"I'm bored so, really I'm not argueing with you ......."
Whoa girl, no arguing here either, fortunately we are all mature grown up civilised people here,
***looking round and checking just to make sure***
well, at least we both appear to be reasonable . And to be fair to you I did say I wasn't 100% sure about the lower line details on my brake set, so you are probably right I'd still cut the line and take the hit in my wallet before I chopped a good canopy, then I'd probably send the canopy to Derek for a reline
cya around Kelli,
D
Cya
D

[tomblin 0]

What's this "performance option" for the Safire......I just bought one and just want to replace only the break lines (they are currently set too short and in pretty bad shape compared to the rest of the line set), is there a better way to have them done other than the regular cascade???

[Jimbo 0]

Go here - or just drop a line to hooknswoop. I've talked to him about it and he's been nothing but helpful.
-
Jim

[tomblin 0]

Thanks for the info, I went to the site and filled out the form that was there...
What is the actual modification, an extra line off the brake cascade?

[skycat 0]

Quote

What is the actual modification, an extra line off the brake cascade?

No you still will have the same number of cascade lines, they are just trimmed out differently. He can explain it better.

[NathanL100 0]

This just happened to me this weekend. I have a Talon 2 w/ velcroless toggles and as stated earlier one of the brake stows slipped over the place you tie off the brake to the toggle and jammed. I tried to release both toggles and only released one so my canopy started to spin. I looked at it for a second or two and tried to fix it while it was spinning, but I was unable to fix it so I countered the spin by pulling down on the opposite riser until it flew straight. Landed a left hand pattern by letting up on the riser that didn't have the stuck toggle and landed by flaring using the rear risers. It felt really weird because when I flared I already had one riser partially pulled down, but I landed standing up, I love my Spectre. My canopy is only loaded at 1.2 so its still pretty tame, but had it been a heavier loaded canopy I probably would have chopped it.
Just keep your mind open and suck in the experience. And if it hurts, you know what? It's probably worth it.

[nacmacfeegle 0]

Apologies for any confusion, I checked my nrake lines last night, Skycat and Josh were right, If i cut a line above the ring guide I would have to replace the entire line up to the cascades. My set is as per Skycat's drawing.
I'm man enough to admit I was mistaken, sorry for any confusion, humble pie, munch munch......I'm embarassed that I don't know my own gear as well as I should.
I don't want this to become another RSL debacle, so I guess a rule of thumb would be...if you didn't feel comfortable about landing with a brake malfunction chop 'n go silver. I think we are all agreed on that.
Sorry again for any confusion.
Cya
D

[amir1967 0]

I think we should change the name of this thered to stuck toggel on Talon-2 containers.
just thinking why is it steel happening is someone has to die first before riggers will know what their doing with thoes toggels
Amir
AM67

[PhreeZone 15]

I've had a stuck toggle on a Dolphin, a Javelin and a Sweethog.... Its all in the packing. The toggle design is just fine. Packers/jumper just need to learn their equipment better.
"Hey.. Its my camera, and my remote... I'll rewind if I want to!" ~ Goat #2

[billvon 2,400]

>Freebird, if you cut the line above the little metal guide ring on the riser, you \
>won't have to worry about balancing the steering with the good brake line.
True - however - not all canopies can be flared with rear risers once you cut the brake lines - the tail may fold upwards when you do that. If you do cut the brake line, make sure to make some practice rear-riser flares up high. If the tail folds upwards during the flare, cut it away.
-bill von

[billvon 2,400]

>just thinking why is it steel happening is someone has to die first before riggers
>will know what their doing with thoes toggels
Not to be gruesome, but that's why many changes in skydiving get made - because people died. We're lucky that we're jumping _after_ we learned a lot of the lessons on how to construct and assemble gear. That's also something to think about when people go out of their way to break the BSR's - most of those BSR's are there not because some bureaucratic paper pusher came up with meaningless rules, they are there because people have gotten injured and killed by doing what the rule proscribes.
-bill von

[nacmacfeegle 0]

True - however - not all canopies can be flared with rear risers once you cut the brake lines - the tail may fold upwards when you do that. If you do cut the brake line, make sure to make some practice rear-riser flares up high. If the tail folds upwards during the flare, cut it away.
Yup yup yup, I suggested this is practised up high on a good canopy in an earlier posting.......
Cya
D

[jdhill 0]

I agree that you should practice rear-riser flairs up high on a good canopy... but I think his point was if you decide to cut your break line, try flairing on that canopy w/ rear risers... if the tail folds up you are better off on your reserve.
Josh
http://www.aerialfusion.com

[IronMike 0]

I had a stuck toggle a month or so ago. The excess brake line was wrapped around the toggle grommet somehow (demo gear and I didn't pack it). Of course, I had unstowed the other toggle. I messed with it till 1300 or so (You aint gonna get it unstuck) then decided to practice a rear riser flare or two. I could tell by the sound of the wind as I flared that I wasn't going to get hurt too bad so I decided to keep the canopy. (It was jump 130 or so on a Sabre 2 loaded at 1.4 on a zero wind day) I wrapped the other brake line around my hand until it mached the locked toggle. On final, I noticed Craig O'Obrien on the grass filming something so I yelled at him to video me. At least I would have cool video to show my friends if I broke something. I slid in on my butt but I could have stood it up. The only mistake I made was trying to mess with it and not paying attention to my altitude. I would recommend practicing rear riser flares on whatever you are jumping before you have to do it for real. I would do it again on the same canopy but would have to rethink anything with a higher wingloading.

[Trent 0]

I know I'm chiming in late here, but I've had a stuck brake line before and thought I'd share. Actually it was a little more unnerving than a stuck brake line... here goes.
I pull, grab the rear risers to pop out the end cells and turn towards home, loosen the chest strap, collapse the slider, tool around with toggles stowed. When I went to release the toggles, the left one wouldn't budge. It was then that I noticed that I had what looked like only 1 riser on my left side. Turns out that my excess line wrapped around both risers and half-hitched around the dive loop on the front riser. So I work at it, trying to pick the hitch off (it looked like it could just slip over the end of the dive loop, but noooo.), while I'm countersteering with the right toggle. It's not coming off, so I let the canopy fly... into an unlandable dive. Hmmm? Chop it? It's a good canopy, stable with right toggle input... what to do? Landing with rear risers was out since I only had (effectively) one left riser and I'd be pulling both front and back if I tried to flare. I restowed the right toggle at half brakes and practiced flaring with the right riser and left-rear line group in my hand. It worked well enough. So I landed it, PLFed, brushed off the dirt and walked away.
I did not cut for 2 reasons: One- I don't want to cut from a full, stable parachute if I don't have to. Two- There was a lot of traffic in my immediate area (above and below). I decided I could fly it and I did. That's the benefit of being a canopy-wuss and having a sabre2 135 loaded at 1.3 with 600 jumps. Something smaller and I would have cut it, or broken some bones trying to land.
Bigger canopies are the shit. Think you're ready to downsize? Wait another 200 jumps. It'll pay off.

[GrumpySmurf 0]

Simple flowchart
- Can I correct this, if yes, life is good, if no -> can I land this (via controllability check - left turn, right turn, flare - via risers, toggles, leaning REALLY hard, blowing hard to deflect your direction ), if yes, life is good, if no -> Plan B. Have a look at 'Breakaway' - they have a part dealing with broken lines and tension knots and what to expect - I guess a stuck toggle could be likened to one of these in terms of deciding landability of a particular canopy type (reduced control range).
Remember, I know I grab both toggles at once and pull (like I would guess alot of us do) - if one is stuck - the other with go free - it's going into a fast spiral quick, you could level it out with applying opposite toggle pressure, if it doesn't spin up right away, but it sound like it would be a pain, if not plain dangerous, to land. Reserve repack is cheaper than the ambulance ride/doctor bills from a broken leg.
If both toggles are still left in place, you are effectively flying in brakes, which means less forward speed to convert to lift for a flare, it's gonna be a hard landing - hope you brushed up on your PLF skills?

[polarbear 1]

I actually had it happen to me on my old Talon. It is hard to explain without having the equipment in front of me, but the Talon toggles can have the brake locking loop sort of half hitch at the toggle attachment. This results in a situation where the toggle will come loose from the riser, but the brake loop doesn't slip off the toggle, preventing the canopy from going into full flight. Rigging Innovations actually has a service bulletin out on this.
When this happened to me, I had both toggles loose and in my hands, but the brakes hadn't released on one side. I was on a Heatwave 170 at 1.4. To make a long story short, I did a controlability check to make sure I could fly straight and flare effectively/straight, and then landed the canopy. It wasn't the softest landing, but it was alright.
Something that occured to me after I landed was, what if that stuck brake had suddenly come loose, particularly close to the ground? It could have created a problem.
In general, I would recommend doing a contolability check. If it passes (and you are comfortable with it), land it; if it fails, chop it (pending you have altitude). Don't bounce under a bad parachute when you have a perfectly good reserve on your back.

[udecker 0]

I actually had this occur this weekend. For some reason, I decided to let one of the guys at the DZ (friends of the kid of the pilot) pack my main while I calmed down from a less-than-impressive 4-way training jump.
On the next jump, which also went to shit, I reached for my pilot chute, thought "that skydive sucked. but this is gonna suck even more" and tossed it out. Everything was fine until I unstowed the brakes, which I always do immediately. I usually have to use my front risers to "force" the slider down, since the brass grommets like to hold it way up there. I didn't have time to though. The left one came out fine, the right one did not. I could see that the line was looping up from the little steering line ring up to the soft link, and then back down to my hand. The packer had stowed the excess brakeline through the softlink, and it snagged the ring that holds the softlink in place. I tugged, thinking it would come lose, but it didn't. I checked my altitude around 1800 and said if I couldn't resolve it by 1000, I was gonna chop it. I tried stablizing the sharp right hand turn by giving the left line some input, which I could, but realized that not only was I poorly proficient in landing using rear risers, but I couldn't figure out exactly how I was going to both hold the left toggle down while I was flaring. Then I noticed that I'd continue to lose a lot more alititude if I was going to spin right until I was again facing the DZ. I looked at my alti again, and it was just above 1000... I had already lost 1000ft in the few seconds I was attempting to resolve the problem, and I was on the wrong side of the DZ.
So I chopped it right around 1000ft, and my big 'ole 220 reserve opened up when I yanked the d-ring. This gave me just enough time to realize that I quickly needed to check the flare of the previously unused reserve, and then I had to land slightly off, standing it up.
This is my second steering-line mal, (first one the right line broke, along with a c-line), and even though last time I assured myself that I'd learn how to land with rear risers, I haven't yet. (I fly a Synergy 170 at about 1.1:1... I have around 130 jumps.)
Some of the folks at the DZ said I should've decided to chop at a higher altitude, but I had no idea that I'd lose so much just trying to fix the problem. Of course, they said I should learn to land using rear risers. (They said that the last time too...)
Needless to say, people should always feel confident landing in rear risers. I'm still not, since I haven't jumped since the cutaway, but my next few jumps will be learning that.
Even more amazing, some guy on the ground decided to focus on my canopy flight with his camcorder, and got the whole thing on tape.
-Craig
It's suddenly coming towards me very fast, so flat and round. Will it be friends with me?