toggle stuck

[freebird 0]

In the unlikely event a toggle is stuck on opening and will not budge is it better to leave the other toggle in place and land the canopy with the rear risers or cuttaway. ( for someone that has never cuttaway before) ? Asumeing the stuck toggle is not causing any problems ( accept that it is stuck) and you have a open canopy with slider all the wat down(. I know that I would not pull on the other toggle because you lose valueable altitude if you are any any type of spin.)
The longer you wait ........the more sense you get.

[rapper4mpi 0]

Well I'm not sure about your technique, but most people probably grab both toggles and pull down on them at the same time. So most likely you would have one stuck and one released. What would cause a toggle to become stuck?
-Rap

[freebird 0]

I do not know, but I had a friend who fought a stuck toggle one time. I want to be ready to take action for situation that may unfold under canopy........
The longer you wait ........the more sense you get.

[freebird 0]

I do not know, but I had a friend who fought a stuck toggle one time. I want to be ready to take action for situation that may unfold under canopy........
The longer you wait ........the more sense you get.

[LawnDart21 0]

It depends on the size of the canopy and the wingloading. If I were jumping my old Sabre 170 loaded at 1.35, I'd just ride it in brakes and flare with rear risers. If it happened on my Vengeance 120 loaded 1.91, I wouldn't be as apt to risk it, it would depend on the wind and the landing pattern. There really isn't any reason you can't safely land a lightly to moderately loadedcanopy with rear risers safely (preparingto plf of course), so the question is, if you chop, your out $48 for a repack and you might lose or damage your $1500 main canopy. On the other hand, if you mis-time your flare, you could sprain or break an ankle. It's really a situational decision. If it's arizona and you can see the ground for miles, you less apt to lose your main than if you chop over a forrest like skydive new england. to each their own i guess, just be safe!!
"I live to EFS"
Tom

[freebird 0]

What am I doing wrong my post and replys are being doubled?
The longer you wait ........the more sense you get.

[freebird 0]

I am 100 pounds jumping a 135 Sabre 2. I want to avoid a chop unless my canopy has an issue. I think landing with the rear risers would be a better choice if the canopy is open with the slider all the way down. I have never chopped before.
The longer you wait ........the more sense you get.

[jdhill 0]

---What would cause a toggle to become stuck?
Packing error... happened to me on about my 15th jump... toggle had been flipped through the line set above the connector linkon the previous jump (student gear jumped by first jump student and not picked up properly)... was not noticed by the packer when the break was set... when I released the breaks, one released, the other came out of the keeper but tightened around the line group... controled the turn with the other toggle and stood up the landing in the peas, although the flair was stange with one toggle and one riser...No big deal on student canopy...
Josh
http://www.aerialfusion.com

[LawnDart21 0]

"What would cause a toggle to become stuck?"
- You've obviously never packed after drinking a 6 pack of Corona........LOL
In all seriousness though, the excess brake line that is "usually" neatly stowed with velcro can work its way out from time to time, "looping" around the toggle. If you pull out the toggle after its looped, you get a knot, and a stuck toggle sometimes........
"I live to EFS"
Tom

[SkymonkeyONE 3]

I have seen instances where both one and both toggles become fouled. Generally, this is only possible if you sort of "half-hitch" the excess somehow. If both stay stowed and it's a big, lightly loaded canopy, then I would land it on both rear risers; no big deal. The problem comes when only ONE toggle gets stuck and you have already released the brakes. In that instance, you revert back to your student training and perform a controlability check. If you cannot cancel the turn with less than 50 percent opposite toggle, or remedy the situation by just cutting the stuck control line with that hook knife I hope you always jump with, then chop it. If you failed to jump your hook knife, but can control the parachute with 50 percent or less opposite toggle, then I would land it.
My wife made the mistake of landing a 110 square foot parachute of mine one time a number of years ago that had two jammed toggles. She had packed herself this brake-line malfuncion somehow, but fought it all the way to the ground instead of just chopping it or cutting the control lines with her hook knife. Her excuse: "I wanted to jump that main again and if I chopped it I would not have been able to." Needless to say, she will never make that mistake again. This, from a girl with an AFF rating and 2700 skydives. Luckily, she didn't pound that hard, but it sure looked ugly. She was in a fairly tight spiral when she hit the ground. NONE of us are immune to stupidity attacks. Perform your emergency prodedures as you rehearse them and you should be fine.
Chuck
My webpage HERE

[rapper4mpi 0]

Good point, I never thought of that. Thanks.
-Rap

[skycat 0]

Are you talking about the malfunction that I had a little over a year ago? In that case the toggle wasn't actually stuck, what happened was the grommet tore threw the to top of the of the material that makes the top tab and the brake setting snagged under it. Due to tension on the line was unable to clear the line from under the piece of matrial. As you probably remember from that day, I chose to chop it.
Ok excuse my poor drawing skills, but I've attached what my toggles looked like. Also these were Javalin risers and toggles, and the other toggle is normal, so it looks like this one was just defective.

[nacmacfeegle 0]

Okay, I posted this on the duplicate thread...
Firstly toggles are designed to avoid such a scenario, however a similar effect can occur if you have a premature brake release during deplyment, the brake can tangle up and spoil your day.
Okay, in this extremely unlikely scenario (but accepting its happened anyway on the basis that if it can go wrong, it will), you will probably have one released brake and the other jammed. I suspect everybody releases both their brakes at the same time, you ain't gonna know if its jammed or not until its too late, ie you will already have released the 'good' brake, and you will be starting to wind up a diving turn. edit>>>first thing to do is stabilise the dive/turn with the good brake and sort out your landing area, ya don't wanna be spiralling into traffic etc<<<<
Personally (I've been in a similar situation recently with a tangled brake line due to premature brake release), I would work the problem down to about 1000-500, depending on available outs and windage. If I cant clear the poodoo, I whip out my hook knife, and cut the offending brake line and rear riser the landing. Preferably somewhere nice and soft like a swoop ditch, or pond, freshly ploughed field etc.
I've chopped a few in my time (3), as a rule of thumb, I don't chop from a flying, landable canopy.
NB riser landings are very twitchy, so practise this some time up high so you get a feel for it, and don't even try and stand up the landing, take the grass stains and the ego bashing and walk back with the smug feeling that you did the right thing (ie you are actually able to walk).
Also the riser design on your new Javelin will go a long way to avoid such drama (velcroless toggles in elastic keepers), and you will get a hook knife with your rig courtesy of those nice Sunpath people.
Okay?
Cya
D
Cya
D

[skycat 0]

oops forgot the attachment

[billvon 2,400]

>In the unlikely event a toggle is stuck on opening and will not budge is it better to
> leave the other toggle in place and land the canopy with the rear risers or
> cuttaway.
It is better to leave the other toggle in place. Unfortunately, this is often impossible since you don't find out about the stuck toggle until you release the other one.
If you do get one released and one stuck, the first thing to do is a control check. Can you control the canopy, and land with rear risers? If it's a big canopy, the answer is probably yes. If it's a small elliptical, it's probably no.
If you can't control the canopy and safely land it, cut it away. That's easy.
If you can control it you have several options:
1. Cut the offending brake line with your knife and land using rear risers only. Try this up high, because the tail of some canopies will actually fold upwards when you try to do this without the support of the brake line.
2. Land without a flare, holding the free toggle down to stow position. Perfecly doable on a Manta for example, as long as you have it headed into the wind and PLF. Steer with the one toggle. (Remember that the brakes are effectively set, so you are going slower to begin with.)
3. "Restow" one of the brakes and flare using rear risers. You can't really restow it, but you can wrap the brake line around the riser and hold the whole riser/brake line wrap with your hand. This will let you both keep the canopy flying straight and also let you flare a bit. Again, remember the brakes are already pulled down so you won't get much flare.
4. If it's really worrying you, and you're above 1500 feet or so, you can cut it away and use your reserve. It's there for situations like this.
As an example, my girlfriend once had to land a Nova 150 that way after one brake wouldn't release. She managed to land using method 2, but didn't pay much attention to where she was going, and landed in Mexico. She landed fine but had to do the 200 yard dash across the border before the Federales showed up.
-bill von

[nacmacfeegle 0]

Yup, I see how that could spoil your day.
Ever since there was a flurry of dramas involving grommets on main closing loops a while back, I've included grommet inspections in my monthly rig check ups. Not just the slider grommets, which is pretty standard.
Cya
D

[Jimbo 0]

I had a malfunction similar to Skykat's only a few weeks ago. I had a choice between landing the canopy in almost full flight (Bad Idea) and landing the canopy in more than 50% brakes (Another Bad Idea). I chose to chop it and land safely under my reserve. The canopy is a Safire 189 or 174 depending on how you look at it loaded at a little over 1.4. I'm walking today, no broken bones, I'm happy.
-
Jim

[amir1967 0]

I personally like point #3 ,too bad I didn't know it when my Vengeance at 1.4 brake loop went over the toggel, yes I know there is a warning in my talon 2 manual which I didn't have back then.
so come togel pull time and I'm going left in icrease rate .
the problem is that when you try to pull on the stuck togel it get even warse so after two try or so look at the alt and see if it can fly strait and stable at that speed and then come flair time and I had nice soft and high grass to slid my butt off
Amir
the point if you have Talon 2 with velcro less toggels (nerow without a ring in it) let youre rigger stich the brake loop to the right size
AM67

[freebird 0]

What are you refering to when you say cut. the line? What exactly is being cut????? How will that help?
The longer you wait ........the more sense you get.

[freebird 0]

I was talking about some one else actually, but I do remember your cuttaway.
The longer you wait ........the more sense you get.

[rgoper 0]

**I have never chopped before.**
Tiff:
you've made this statement 3 times during your post(s) on this topic. i'm going to go out on a limb here and say your more worried about cutting away than a partial malfuntion of your system. when you continue this sport (which i hope to see you do, soon) do not jump, if there is a single doubt what you will do if you need to. unwillingness to cut-away has caused a lot of "incidents" remember, try once, try twice...cha-chink
Richard
"If I Actually Knew What I Was Doing, Then, I'd Be Dangerous"

[freebird 0]

I practice my emergency procedures before my jumps......I will cuttaway a malfunctioned canopy if I need to, I just do not want to make something simple into something worse.
(example) cutting away line twist at 3500. Mabe not a BIG problem made more serious.
My question was to know if a perfectaly good canopy should be cuttaway if you can control the rear risers........if you have a stuck toggle .
No control over open canopy, line over , line twists that do not work out by my hard deck (2500), slider still at top of canopy, these are a few reasons I would chop...........
The longer you wait ........the more sense you get.

[diverdriver 5]

Freebird, I have seen people with problems using their slinks. The new "soft link" line attachments don't stop your slider as it comes down. I have had several people tell me that for a time the gromets on their slider hung up on their toggles. One jammed leading to a cutaway. There are any number of reasons why a toggle would jam.
Hard Deck. Know your hard deck. Is the canopy controllable and LANDABLE. Yes? Continue. No? Then begin your emergency procedures at that hard deck. Altitude awareness in a slow speed malfunction like this can be critical because it is easy to lose track.
Story: Have a friend that got a toggle stuck. Tried to land the canopy by flaring with one toggle. Drilled themself into the ground and came very close to dieing. This person should never have tried to land this canopy. It was NOT loaded more than 1:1. Even "docile" canopies can be mean given the chance. Don't be afraid of the reserve. It's on your back for a reason. Just make sure that if you're going to use it you decide high enough to get a good deployment. Don't be like my other friend who cutaway at 200 feet. He didn't make it.
Chris Schindler
D-19012

[rgoper 0]

**I practice my emergency procedures before my jumps......I will cuttaway a malfunctioned canopy if I need to, I just do not want to make something simple into something worse.**
Tiff:
this is exactly the response i'd hoped for! good girl! take care, be safe.
Richard
"The Real Fun Begins A Deployment Time"

[nacmacfeegle 0]

Jimbo:-"I'm walking today, no broken bones, I'm happy"
My friend, you did the right thing, and I'm glad you did.Freebird, if you cut the line above the little metal guide ring on the riser, you won't have to worry about balancing the steering with the good brake line. This will make flying the canopy a lot less stressful on your arms. Pertinant in your case as you are not a great big guy with a fair amount of upper body strength (no offence little friend), which will be required if you don't cut the line. You want to save a little strength in your arms for the landing. Plus you will only have to replace the lower section of your brake line set, which is relatively simple to repair, and probably cheaper than a reserve repack, not that money comes into this at all .
If you are not 100% confident that you can cut the correct line, steer and land on your risers etc, chop it, your RSL will take care of you, but go silver anyway. This is why I suggested you practice rear riser landings up high on a good canopy in a stress free environment. Confidence will remove fear, fear will cause you to hesitate, or panic, if are afraid or panicking, you may make a bad judgement call and hurt yourself. My wee pal, I don't wanna hear about you hurting .
Cya
D