What is this plane? #6

[howardwhite 5]

O.K., pretty easy plane ID. But I don't think it's a common skydiving plane. Registration indicates the owner is in Boston, but I don't recall its use anywhere in New England.
So,....where and when?
And, while you're at it, identify the rig.

HW

[piisfish 135]

Cessna 411D
www.planedesire.com/aircraft/desire/N411JM/details.html

scissors beat paper, paper beat rock, rock beat wingsuit - KarlM

[BKR 0]

Rig, Top Secret or something like this..

Jérôme Bunker
Basik Air Concept
www.basik.fr
http://www.facebook.com/pages/Le-Luc-France/BASIK-AIR-CONCEPT/172133350468

[cosmobuddy 0]

As a jump plane, it was based out of Ogden, UT. I jumped it at the Chico Hot Springs (Montana) boogie in June, 1991.

[bozo 0]

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O.K., pretty easy plane ID. But I don't think it's a common skydiving plane.
HW

Tom Cannarozzo had two 411s when he ran the DZ in Las Vegas. I did hundreds of tandems out of them both.

bozo
Pain is fleeting. Glory lasts forever. Chicks dig scars.

[NickDG 23]

We also had a 411 at Cal City for a while.

Hated it . . .

The overall accident rate is higher than comfortable and doing two JM AFF out of it is difficult.

NickD BASE 194

[usedtajump 1]

We had a 411 at Decatur, TX in 1983/84. Finally got rid of it because of safety concerns regarding a design flaw in the rudder. Seemed that the rudder was too small to maintain directional control in the event of a critical engine failure on takeoff........or something like that.

The older I get the less I care who I piss off.

[AggieDave 6]

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We had a 411 at Decatur, TX in 1983/84. Finally got rid of it because of safety concerns regarding a design flaw in the rudder. Seemed that the rudder was too small to maintain directional control in the event of a critical engine failure on takeoff.

That was Bishop's plane, right? Wasn't that plane lost during a load after the jumpers had exited, Bishop had to bail out or something along those lines?

I was 3 in 1983, but I'm trying to keep my "old fart" stories straight.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[airtwardo 6]

I was 3 in 1983, but I'm trying to keep my "old fart" stories straight.

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O U C H !

~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

[AggieDave 6]

Hey, I just hope I can make it long enough to earn the important title of old fart in skydiving. Its in complete respect.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[BillyVance 34]

C-411 I remember jumping one at Pell City for one day in 1995. It was from the Rome, GA DZ, and I heard later it crashed.

I remember someone mentioned it was the one type of plane you did NOT want to be in if an emergency arose.

"Mediocre people don't like high achievers, and high achievers don't like mediocre people." - SIX TIME National Champion coach Nick Saban

[winsor 186]

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C-411 I remember jumping one at Pell City for one day in 1995. It was from the Rome, GA DZ, and I heard later it crashed.

I remember someone mentioned it was the one type of plane you did NOT want to be in if an emergency arose.

There are rather a few aircraft that had a presence in the sport, whose flight characteristics left something to be desired under the wrong circumstances. Typically they were affordable - for good reason - after becoming too long in the tooth for their intended purpose.

The LoadStall comes to mind as down-home bad news if it has too far aft a cg. Spending the last moments of my life looking at a door I can't reach because of the Gs is not a prospect I relish.

Any of the GSIO Beech twins you can have. I qualify for the caterpillar club from two Twin-Bos that muched engines, and can think of all too many Twin-Bos and QueenAirs that couldn't continue to fly when one fan quit turning. If Nick Christian couldn't keep one aloft, I am not sure who could.

The Cessna 411 has earned a reputation for danger because of its lack of rudder authority. After takeoff there is all too big a window during which, if you lose an engine, you're screwed.

There are some aircraft that require a sure hand on the stick, but I'll still jump.

The ones where NOBODY is good enough you can have.


Blue skies,

Winsor

[JerryBaumchen 1,048]

Hi winsor,

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The LoadStall comes to mind as down-home bad news if it has too far aft a cg. Spending the last moments of my life looking at a door I can't reach because of the Gs is not a prospect I relish.

A month or so after the LoadStall went in north of Seattle 20+ years ago, Tom Classen (who was in it) told me he was stuck opposite the open door, pressed against the side of the aircraft, and could not even lift an arm up & suddenly he found himself in freefall outside of the aircraft. He had no idea how he got outside of the aircraft.

JerryBaumchen

[jimmytavino 16]

Re : the Rig....

Classiflyer.... i think...

jay tee

[drjump 0]

Dave--I think you are refering to Bishop's Bambo Bomber that had a "run-a-way" prop. Tom was the last one out, after trimming her full nose down! As the legend has it!

[howardwhite 5]

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Rig, Top Secret or something like this..

Yup. I think so.
Top Secret pic is from an Altitude Shop ad.
This rig would be very uncool these days (aside from its size.) Wrinkles and bumps all over the place, elements that don't quite seem to fit together. But I guess it was popular, at least on the left coast; I don't remember seeing them often in the northeast.

HW

[BKR 0]

It was a cord links to the plastic reserve ripcord to pull the upper reserve flap because it has a tendancy to stay close. I think it was the same with the Classiflyer, no?

Jérôme Bunker
Basik Air Concept
www.basik.fr
http://www.facebook.com/pages/Le-Luc-France/BASIK-AIR-CONCEPT/172133350468

[RogerRamjet 0]

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The LoadStall comes to mind as down-home bad news if it has too far aft a cg. Spending the last moments of my life looking at a door I can't reach because of the Gs is not a prospect I relish.

I hope you're not jumping from Skyvan's then, they have the same characteristics as the Loadstar did (Bill Buchmann told me this and has flown jumpers in both). They have a line painted in the Deland Skyvan for this reason.

Flying the Loadstar safely (or the skyvan) is about having the right pilot and CG management. Part of CG management for the Loadstar was having the landing gear down on jump run. Bill told me it makes about a 6 ft difference in where 500lbs of wheels and struts are. I believe at least one of the fatal Loadstar events involved non-extended gear on jump run.

-----------------------
Roger "Ramjet" Clark
FB# 271, SCR 3245, SCS 1519

[riggerrob 558]

It is called "Top Secret" because no rigger in Canada knew how to pack it!
Tee!
Hee!
I have only seen Top Secrets on the Left Coast, but they were obsolete by the time I got there.

[usedtajump 1]

AggieDave, that 411 in Decatur was operated out of the Decatur Airport DZ and was owned by Fred Elsner and I think Bobby Bennett had some intrest in it. After it was sold, rumor has it, that it was shot down in the Nicaraguan civil war while being used as a "bomber". They were actually shoving bombs out the door over enemy positions.

The older I get the less I care who I piss off.

[JumpUpMyAss 0]

Fred Elsner. I haven't heard that name in 22 years.
Where is he now?
How did he die?
Who killed him?
Fred are you out there?

[usedtajump 1]

Last I heard and this was several years ago, Fred was still around and still selling concrete pipe for TXI. Currently, no idea. Perhaps efs4ever might have more updated info on him. Russ, you out there?

The older I get the less I care who I piss off.