Reserve soft handles

[billbooth 10]

"Again, if pillows are so bad, why are they used as cutaway handles on 99% of the rigs out there?"
Although I designed the "soft pillow" handle for the 3-ring release in the first place, I won't get into the discussion (too much) about whether it makes a good reserve handle for freeflyers. Most decisions in skydiving are tradeoffs, and this is certainly one of them. However, I do think a pillow makes a better cutaway handle than a reserve handle, simply because, where the pillow is in a cutaway situation, is much different from where it is in a reserve pull situation. Think about it. In almost all situations where a cutaway is needed, you're hanging from your main risers, and your main lift web, where your cutaway pillow sits, is pulled up and away from your body, so your cutaway pillow is literally right in front of your nose. Now think of where your reserve handle is in a total malfunction. It's down below your armpit, tucked tightly against your body, maybe even UNDER the webbing, and more than a little bit hard to see, especially if you're wearing a full face helmet. Now think how much a reserve pillow handle feels like your harness, or a fold in your jumpsuit, especially if you're wearing gloves. Now picture yourself low, out of time, and in desperate need of a reserve handle that you can't see or feel. Aren't you glad you bought that Cypres?

[SkydiveMonkey 0]

good points Bill. I jump with one on mine, mainly because I want to reduce the change of a snag because I'm doing more and more things like rodeos etc. As you said, it's one trade off for another.
When I grow up, I want to be a post whore

[Hooknswoop 19]

"Now think of where your reserve handle is in a total malfunction. It's down below your armpit, tucked tightly against your body, maybe even UNDER the webbing, and more than a little bit hard to see, especially if you're wearing a full face helmet. Now think how much a reserve pillow handle feels like your harness, or a fold in your jumpsuit, especially if you're wearing gloves. Now picture yourself low, out of time, and in desperate need of a reserve handle that you can't see or feel. Aren't you glad you bought that Cypres?"
I dis-agree. I looked through parachutists to compare the position on reser hard handles and reserve pillow handles. n every picture that they were visable, the reserve pillow stuck out farther thatn a hard handle from the jumper's body. Some of the hard handles were laying flat against the jumpers body. A reeserrve pillow that is tucked under the harness webbing should be caught before exit the same as a cutaway pillow tucked under the M/L/W or a BOC handle tucked into the pocket.
Some people prefer to cutaway from a PC in tow (that's another debate) and that would include pulling the cutaway pillow at terminal.
I agree that it is a trade-off, that pillows aren't perfect and could be improved (like Bill Von mentioned, plastic stiffers, some have them, some don't, and a pocket for your fingers to fit into), but they do have advantages over hard handles (less likely to be snagged or come out of pocket accidently).
Reserve pillows seem to get unfairly slammed.
Hook

[rgoper 0]

this is in question format, not statement, o.k.? would it be harder to find "silver" or a pillow, if you were in a "9 line" bind? and do they make pillows with finger holes/grips on them? i don't know any different than what i've been doing, but i'm always open to new ideas. i know it's been reported on more than one freefly jump that a jumper's cut-away pillow has been pulled accidently, wouldn't it be a bitch if somebody accidently deployed your reserve?
Richard
"Gravity Is My Friend"

[weid14 0]

which is what *almost* happened to me today. team traing, turning block 7 (buddies), anyway, we're closing and my piece partner snags my reserve handle, so it's flopping about pretty good. I deployed my main (at the time his eyes were really, really big, and I wasn't sure waht was wrong cause he kept pointing at my side, I actaully thought, well, a leg strap has come undone, I'm history) without event, but I'm seriously considering the switch to soft.

[rgoper 0]

**I'm seriously considering the switch to soft.**
i'm not slamming the consideration of switching to a soft reserve handle, but if you swith to the soft handle because it's "harder to pull" then in my opinion, it's needs some more consideration. different manufacturer's make different shapes of steel reserve handles...thought? be safe, take care......
Richard
"Gravity Is My Friend"

[cloud9 0]

Perhaps there is a lesson in the first fatality of the year. The jumper had a spinning malfuction, made several attempts to cut away but could not get the handle. He did find his reserve handle and fired it into the spinning main. He ended up with two canopies out, and impacted in a down plane.
I think I would rather take my chances with two canopies out then nothing or landing under one spinning main.
Of course this may have been a fluke and the soft handle may not be harder to find/pull

[weid14 0]

I have the smallest metal handle on my rig. The new construction method on the soft reserve handle form mirage makes it very similar as far as staying put to the metal handle. I can't coment on other manufaturers. The only drawback would be an "across the body" pull.

[MarkM 0]

With street clothes on I have a nasty habit of grabbing part of my shirt when I grab my cutaway handle. There isn't the same problem with my reserve handle because it's a metal loop and my grab for it is different.
I'd also think a hard metal loop is easier/faster to find by touch alone.
But in the end I guess it's all about risk minimalization. If you're in a high risk for a snag, go soft. If not, buy your rig with the standard silver. You can always swap it out later, no?

[billvon 2,421]

>If you're in a high risk for a snag, go soft. If not, buy your rig with
>the standard silver. You can always swap it out later, no?
Agreed. I would also add that if you are at high risk for a snag due to collisions, another excellent option to pursue is to learn to avoid collisions.
-bill von

[weber 0]

I have heard that some if not all of these soft pillows have a more rigid grip underneath than that of the cutaway handle...anyone know for sure?

[SkydiveMonkey 0]

Yeah, the new Mirage ones have a stiffner behind them. You can also get ones with a pocket one them (Tandem style) so you can put your thumb in.
When I grow up, I want to be a post whore

[Hooknswoop 19]

RWS has a pipe in the handle and Sun path has a small(er) oval metal ring inside their reserve pillow handles.
Hook

[kopelen 0]

As for the argument over the two types, I will throw my two cents in. I have a soft reserve because it sits closer to my body than my old silver handle. On my last cutaway, I had no problems, in a spinning malfuntion, finding either handle. Both were easy to find, grab, and cut-away and deploy my reserve. I think its more what you prefer. But what the heck everyone has an opinion!!!

[riggerrob 558]

Call me a grumpy old fart, but I made up my mind on this issue in 1979. In 1979 a skydive went to !@#$%^&, I pulled a silver handle and I lived.
All my rigs have have had silver reserve ripcord handles. This is partly due to our climate in the Great White North. It is difficult to find things by feel while wearing thick gloves.
If you worry about oafs grabbing your handles in error, then don't jump with them.
The second solution is to ask for the smallest silver ripcord handles that are currently installed on Racers and Mirages.
My third choice would be the fabric-covered steel tube ripcord handle available on Vectors. I do not want go any softer than a Vector reserve ripcord.
Finally, you can mix and match ripcord handles from various manufacturers. For example, the Racer factory builds ripcord handles for dozens of other manufacturers, just specify the length (from the pointy end of the pin) when you order.

[Hooknswoop 19]

"Call me a grumpy old fart, but I made up my mind on this issue in 1979. In 1979 a skydive went to !@#$%^&, I pulled a silver handle and I lived.
All my rigs have have had silver reserve ripcord handles. This is partly due to our climate in the Great White North. It is difficult to find things by feel while wearing thick gloves.
If you worry about oafs grabbing your handles in error, then don't jump with them.
The second solution is to ask for the smallest silver ripcord handles that are currently installed on Racers and Mirages.
My third choice would be the fabric-covered steel tube ripcord handle available on Vectors. I do not want go any softer than a Vector reserve ripcord.
Finally, you can mix and match ripcord handles from various manufacturers. For example, the Racer factory builds ripcord handles for dozens of other manufacturers, just specify the length (from the pointy end of the pin) when you order."
Rob- good points, especially the gloves. My question is when you pulled silver in 1979, did you have a round or square reserve? Do you have a round or square reserve now? safe guess your container now is a lot different from the container you were jumping in 1979. My point is, new isn't necessarly bad. "That's the way we've always done it" is a phrase sure to get me riled :-). Of course, rushing right out and buying the latest and greatest isn't the best idea either, but soft handles have some advantages over hard handles and hard handles have some advantages over soft handles. In some situations, a soft handle makes more sense than a hard handle and vice versus.
Hook

[Zennie 0]

Quote

do they make pillows with finger holes/grips on them?

I haven't gone the soft pillow route mainly because I'm afrid of losing my grip on a reserve pillow at the worst possible time (maybe irrational, but that's my fear). I hook my thumb through the silver handle and I don't want to lose that because I feel it gives me a solid grip.
I have seen sort of a combo soft loop/pillow that I would consider using. It seems like a good compromise. Forget who makes them.
"Zero Tolerance: the politically correct term for zero thought, zero common sense."

[nacmacfeegle 0]

"I have seen sort of a combo soft loop/pillow that I would consider using. It seems like a good compromise. Forget who makes them."
Are you thinking about my Javelin with its strange looking soft cutaway loop (which I think is quite a good idea) and reserve pillow?
Why is my rig set up like this? I believe we should be rethinking the design of our cutaway systems. A loop on the cutaway makes sense to me, as I wanna be sure that sucker is gone BEFORE I fire my last chance into the spinning mess above my back. People are worried about not being able to grasp a soft reserve handle, should we be applying the same logic to the cutaway system?
Terrified of a main reserve entanglement, even though I've chopped and gone silver (obviously successfully) 3 times, and have had an FXC misfire at 11k.
Opinions and open discussions on this are hereby solicited by myself ....... Nacmacchat is now open
Cya
D

[Zennie 0]

Quote

Are you thinking about my Javelin with its strange looking soft cutaway loop (which I think is quite a good idea) and reserve pillow?

As a matter of fact, I think that is what I'm thinking of. Yes I like that design as well.
Applying that to a cutaway handle wouldn't be a big deal I wouldn't think. I wonder if a rigger could reverse one for you.
"Zero Tolerance: the politically correct term for zero thought, zero common sense."

[nacmacfeegle 0]

Don't see why not, the 'loop' is formed from a continuous length of teflon cable swaged to form the handle, the ends go to the 3 rings as per normal, the 'handle' is a fabric shroud with a velcro tab for the 'pad pocket'. You just have to make sure the lengths match your Vector cable lengths. Lets chat with Chris or someone at the DZ this weekend.
Cya
D

[billbooth 10]

"nacmacfeegle" asked -
"Why is my rig set up like this? I believe we should be rethinking the design of our cutaway systems. A loop on the cutaway makes sense to me, as I wanna be sure that sucker is gone BEFORE I fire my last chance into the spinning mess above my back. People are worried about not being able to grasp a soft reserve handle, should we be applying the same logic to the cutaway system?"
To which Bill answered:
And while you're at it, why don't you try moving the reserve handle over to the right side, and the cutaway handle over to the left side...There MIGHT be some advantage to that set-up...No, wait...Let's put both handles on one side leaving the other side free for safer grips... Or maybe we should move both handles down to the hips, leaving the entire upper main lift webb free for grips. Wait a minute, the main deployment handle is on the lower right corner of the main container, why don't we put the reserve handle on the other corner? That makes sense doesn't it? and yada, yada, yada.....
OK, I know I may be a strange person to say this, but there are some advantages to "standardization" that must at least be considered. That's why, no matter what car you buy, the brake pedal is on the left, and the accelerator pedal on the right. There is no "absolute" reason why this set-up is the best. But someone had to make the decision for everyone's good. Can you imagine how many accidents there would be if Hertz started renting cars with reversed pedals?
Times change, and skydiving gear will change as each new discipline is developed. I watched it happen in the 70's (and even got to help a little). The change from rounds to squares, from front mounted reserves to piggy backs, from main ripcords to hand deploy, and from Capewell canopy releases to 3-rings, from always jumping by yourself, to belly flying relative work, to always jumping by yourself on your butt or head, and back to relative work, this time in every body position imaginable.
While I think all this discussion about activation handles is healthy, please think long and hard, and have very good reasons, before you fundamentally change the "standard" system. If there's one thing I've learned in 30 years of designing parachute systems is that EVERY change, no matter how seemingly minor, creates unforseen problems. With the standard system, at least you know what the problems are.
I've experimented so much that some people have actually accused me of inventing more malfunctions (like pilot chutes in tow) than any other living person...and they're right. If the truth be known, more than 90% of everything I've played with didn't work out. Luckily, I got to "bury" most of my mistakes before they buried me.
Because I don't do freefly relative work (except accidentally), I'm not going to preach to you which handle is best for what you do. So go ahead and invent. (I'm watching carefully, and plan to steal anything good you come up with.) Just be careful out there.

[wlie 0]

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
That's why, no matter what car you buy, the brake pedal is on the left, and the accelerator pedal on the right.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
You drive an automatic don't cha?
No disrespect meant in anyway. Thanks to you we're jumping rigs with lots of your innovations. Thanks again.

[billbooth 10]

I knew someone would say that. Yes, my gas guzzling, defiler of the earth's environment, SUV is an automatic. But the accelerator pedal, and the steering wheel (thank God I don't live in England) are on the same side as they were on my MG, 280Z, or MR-2.

[nacmacfeegle 0]

Nah Bill, you are mistaking my intention.
I am advocating replacing a pad with a loop a bit like a flexible reserve handle, not changing anything else. My handles are in the same place and they perform the same functions, the handle design is simply reversed ie a pad on the reserve and a looped handle on the cutaway.
My point being, if people are worried that they can't grasp, or have an effective grip on a reserve pad, what makes em think that the cutaway handle is any less important. With modern canopies spinning people up quickly, being able to jab a thumb through the cutaway handle is becoming more relevant than before (IMHO). Not only are you fighting higher centrifugal (centripetal?) forces to place your hand on the handle in the first place, your risers may also be twisting up tighter than the original design allowed for, mebbe to such an extent that you can no longer see your pad, and possibly causing even higher cutaway forces to be required on the cutaway pad pull. Similarly, I'm hearing about articulated harnesses distorting unpredictably (placing the handle in an unfamiliar location and attitude) under these conditions, again possibly further exacerbating the situation.
What I am worried about is a missed or partial pull on the cutaway, followed by a good reserve pull, resulting in an entaglement.
More and more people are reporting "hard pulls" on cutaways. I see a looped handle as one mitigation against this, along with a return to hard cable housings, improved end ferrule design, and hard riser channels. These are not fundamental changes, more like enhancements to well designed and thought out existing systems.
EVERYBODY has a set of procedures in their head and we all practice them religously right? I'm not suggesting a change to those procedures, just the handle design.
This setup that I have is a factory option on my container-Javelin Odessy-not something I have hatched after some beer and a session in my workshop. But then again, my previous javelin had soft housings, and they proved to be a bad idea.....
For the record, I genuinely respect your opinion, and actually admire the tireless development work that you have undertaken over the last 30 years.
Cya
D

[billbooth 10]

The force required to cutaway a 6 "G" spinning malfunction on correctly made mini 3-rings, with a 200 lb. man (total load on 3-rings =1800 lbs.), is less than 22 lbs. OK then, what about a jumper with poorly made 3-rings? Couldn't he pull harder if he had a metal (or loop) handle? Believe it or not, the answer (barring an injured hand) is NO.

Years ago, before deciding to selling my first "soft" reserve handle, I did some tests to see if "average" jumpers could "pull harder" with a "silver handle" than with a standard cutaway-type pillow. I measured both one and two handed pulls. I thought the metal handle would win by a lot, but I was wrong. There was ALMOST NO DIFFERENCE. Using one hand, all skydivers, male or female, could pull well over 25 lbs., using EITHER type of handle. Using both hands, all the female skydivers could pull over 50 lbs., and all males over 75 lbs. (One girl actually outpulled all the guys with a pull of well over 100 lbs. on a soft handle!) These facts, taken together, lead me to believe that if people are having hard cutaway pulls, it's because their 3 rings are made incorrectly.
It also means that changing handle design will yield LITTLE OR NO BENEFIT on hard cutaways. However, it WILL confuse the hell out of anyone who borrows a rig with reversed handle designs. Remember Rule #1 in parachute design...There must be a very definite benefit to be derived from ANY change, or you don't do it. The learning curve on the new configuration could be fatal, or at the very least, embarrassing.