GreenLight 5 #101 July 16, 2005 QuoteHow about approaching the DZO and talking to him or her about the following points? At our DZ, the problem is that the DZO doesn't do anything about the skydiving opperations. He just hires and fires people. He has a manager to handle the rest. And the manager is of the same type of thinking that the swoopers are. He could care less what I or my friends think. Just give the little A holes with all the money what they want and screw the rest. I'll give it a shot at the end of the month but I don't really see it going anywhere. I guess more people are going to have to die to get the point across. In the mean time I'll be spending my jump money on something else like fishing.... Green Light "Harry, why did you land all the way out there? Nobody else landed out there." "Your statement answered your question." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DBCOOPER 1 #102 July 17, 2005 http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=516107;search_string=dbcooper;#516107 My thoughts on the subject awhile ago.Replying to: Re: Stall On Jump Run Emergency Procedure? by billvon If the plane is unrecoverable then exiting is a very very good idea. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
GreenLight 5 #103 July 17, 2005 Here's a quote from the other discussion about this going on in the safety area.... QuoteResponsibility in the landing pattern? First agree on the pattern! And in order to agree on the pattern we should find other ways to decide what it is at any given time; other ways than what is used in many places, nowadays. Most decisions about the pattern to follow have built in flaws that will not surface in moderate to strong winds and with everybody flying more or less the same type canopy. Some go a bit faster, some a bit slower but everything is pretty much predictable. It is the mixing of ‘conservative flying’ and ‘high performance flying’ and the type of both canopies and pilots that creates problems, sometimes. Add light winds from various directions (like on an otherwise sunny day, “perfect for skydiving”) and you have your recipe for disaster. Therefore I think every DZ needs a so called ‘tetrahydron’, a wind-arrow to give a clear direction on what the pattern should be, and we DO need one that works. How should it work? 1. It should be visible from way up (say 2000-1500ft) 2. It should move automatically with significant changes in wind direction (say more than eight knots) 3. It should NOT MOVE with slight variations in the wind. (i.e. not work as directly as a windsock or piece of tape on a stick …) 4. It should designate the landing pattern in real time. (It should show the MANDATORY landing direction at all times) All other smart plans have their shortcomings and will invariably still present the risk of low level canopy collisions – killing skydivers. “First-idiot-down” designates the pattern? Since I’m not always going to follow idiots who can’t read the wind I can’t blame you if you don’t do that either… Someone leaving the office / hangar to move the arrow? Yeah, right, that ‘ll be the day… I’m not going to wait for someone to finish his coffee / phonecall / packjob and turn the arrow when it is suddenly gusting 15 knots or more from a different direction than what the arrow shows – even though I’m capable of down wind landings, thank you … So…smart automation is what is called for, me thinks… Since you can’t get your ‘tetrahydron’ ready made at the local hardware-store, you will have to do some “junk-yard-wars-engineering” Our Low Tech Plan – “cunning in its simplicity…”: 1. Get a wheel with half the axis still attached. (We found a beautiful one from an old caravan – it goes without saying that it still should be able to move around on the axis…) 2. Get enough plywood, some bolts, some screws and orange or yellow paint. (we found an old arrow-shaped sign that was used to send cyclists towards the beach restaurant before that place was sold to the new owner…) 3. Build one. (Arrow on the axis + a piece of plywood vertically on the tail of the arrow. Moves to easily? Cut some of that plywood off… The wheel should be heavy enough and big enough to keep the whole set up in equilibrium...) Come on people, at most places there's a reasonable solid mock up - how hard can it be to build such a thing? Ours was constructed from less than $ 20 worth of material… Now all your DZO / DZ-staff need from now on is a big stick to highlight some of the softly spoken words*) for those that suffer from permanent altitude-deafness and show unacceptable behavior in the ‘parachutist landing area’ AND of course we all need a separate landing area for the swoopers – the “skygods area”. That one should have an entry gate and some built in challenges to “keep the kids away until they grow up”. It should be far enough away to not interfere with what else is going on, WHATEVER the wind direction… BTW: Part of my own first jump course is ALWAYS: 1. Look in the direction where you want to turn, ONLY THEN: 2. Pull the toggle down and KEEP LOOKING…. *) “Thou shalt fly the holy pattern as designated by the tetrahydron when landing in the parachutists area!” Thou shalt not let your high performance landing maneuver for the “skygods area” interfere with the “parachutist landing area’s” holy pattern in any way – decisive here is not whether ‘the airspace is clear’, decisive is whether you interfere with the holy pattern - and there it doesn't matter if you complete your maneuver or abort it. JUST DON'T GO THERE! I will personally kick the shit out of you and remove your battered body from the DZ if you choose to ignore this gospel – you’re not allowed to open below two grand either, are you not? If these conditions are met you may do your 90, 180, 270, 360 or even 540 – just stay out of the pattern! Nevertheless - even if this were in place everywhere I can’t help wondering what new ways you all are going to find to hurt or kill yourself anyway … Looks like a good plan to me if we could just get it implemented. By the way.... What ever happened to the "Warning Board"? For that matter, when was the last time someone was grounded for ANYTHING at your DZ. The last time anyone was grounded here was when an entire 4 way formation of "Head Downers" had Cypress fires. So I guess the only thing you can do wrong at our DZ is just about kill yourself. Ya know, if it weren't for Cypress, there would be a lot fewer idiots in the sport.Green Light "Harry, why did you land all the way out there? Nobody else landed out there." "Your statement answered your question." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
hottamaly 1 #104 July 19, 2005 Maybe the hook turn death syndrome is replacing what the cypress' are saving. It has to even out some time. (no flames please, just kidding) Skydiving gave me a reason to live I'm not afraid of what I'll miss when I die...I'm afraid of what I'll miss as I live Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
slug 1 #105 July 19, 2005 QuoteMaybe the hook turn death syndrome is replacing what the cypress' are saving. It has to even out some time. (no flames please, just kidding) Your correct, 35 fatalities/year in the US is a long term average. The only thing that changed was the percentage from the cause of the incident from: no pull/low pull to low turn OTOH last year was a record setting 21 fatalities in the US. Even 1 is to many but 21 is about 40% less than the average. Would be nice if the downward trend continues in future years. Based on this thread It looks like the low turn catorary may be overtaken by mid airs collisions. R.I.P. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
GreenLight 5 #106 July 20, 2005 QuoteWould be nice if the downward trend continues in future years. Based on this thread It looks like the low turn catorary may be overtaken by mid airs collisions. Unfortunately, this almost always invlolves an innocent person as well.... I don't wish to be that person...Green Light "Harry, why did you land all the way out there? Nobody else landed out there." "Your statement answered your question." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
GreenLight 5 #107 July 20, 2005 QuoteMaybe the hook turn death syndrome is replacing what the cypress' are saving. It has to even out some time. (no flames please, just kidding) Well I'm not kidding and YES you are right... They will always find a better way to kill themselves... Even under a good canopy... Dum Asses... LOL! Green Light "Harry, why did you land all the way out there? Nobody else landed out there." "Your statement answered your question." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
hottamaly 1 #108 December 20, 2005 So, 5 months later...has it gotten any better? Skydiving gave me a reason to live I'm not afraid of what I'll miss when I die...I'm afraid of what I'll miss as I live Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
GreenLight 5 #109 January 5, 2006 Come on out to Perris this Saturday for the DonV Appreciation Day and we'll see! LOL!Green Light "Harry, why did you land all the way out there? Nobody else landed out there." "Your statement answered your question." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
riggerrob 558 #110 January 8, 2006 Perhaps we should make swoopers wear rotating beacons (like on airplanes) so we can see'em landing!! The light will be a good reference point for the emergency vehicles too!!! >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Safety whistles! We need safety whistles! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DrewEckhardt 0 #111 January 10, 2006 QuoteLots of collisions over the holidays and I think this is just the tip of the iceberg. I think it's just going to get worse. It's getting scary to be under a canopy around all these swoopers and it's still not safe once you're standing in the landing area. I may sound like I'm whining but I'm seeing more and more stupid jumpers pushing limits they have no business playing with in the first place. I may have to find a much quieter DZ because it's getting too crowded here. After opening my Samurai 105 at 3000 feet I can out float and land after an Otter load except for the tandems and AFF students. Since your PD 9-cell can go even slower you should easily be able to arrange things so that the fast people have landed before you and even passed you before they get to pattern altitude. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
GreenLight 5 #112 January 10, 2006 QuoteAfter opening my Samurai 105 at 3000 feet I can out float and land after an Otter load except for the tandems and AFF students. Since your PD 9-cell can go even slower you should easily be able to arrange things so that the fast people have landed before you and even passed you before they get to pattern altitude. Ya but the problem is getting to the ground in one piece without one of those idiots wrapping up with you while they zoom down right in front of me in a corkscrew fashion scaring the begeezus outta me and ruffling my feathers. Makes me want to walk on over there when I land and hand him a nice warm cup of my FIST!Green Light "Harry, why did you land all the way out there? Nobody else landed out there." "Your statement answered your question." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Trae 1 #113 January 23, 2006 in reply to "Makes me want to walk on over there when I land and hand him a nice warm cup of my FIST! " ..................... Hopefully you've got a good buddy or two that will do unto others as they have done unto you .........IF they take you out. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
namgrunt 0 #114 January 23, 2006 OLD and sneeky beats young and brave ..59 YEARS,OVERWEIGHT,BALDIND,X-GRUNT LAST MIL. JUMP VIET-NAM(QUAN-TRI) www.dzmemories.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Trae 1 #115 January 23, 2006 YES. learnin' to dodge them bullets before they get where you was. Cheers mate Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
GreenLight 5 #116 January 27, 2006 Quotein reply to "Makes me want to walk on over there when I land and hand him a nice warm cup of my FIST! " ..................... Hopefully you've got a good buddy or two that will do unto others as they have done unto you .........IF they take you out. I have a few....Green Light "Harry, why did you land all the way out there? Nobody else landed out there." "Your statement answered your question." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Marisan 0 #117 January 3, 2008 http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=3061865;sb=post_latest_reply;so=ASC;forum_view=forum_view_collapsed;;page=unread#unread Hi Guys, The link is to a question I asked on my first post on this forum. Some of the responses are interesting. They range from "Fcuk off you old fart what would you know" to"Yes we are aware of the problem but we don't know what to do about it" It appears to me that the insane have taken over the asylum. I have seen 2 fatalities, one a terminal impact (I still remember the WHOMP sound to this day) another where I was first on the scene and had to cut the harness off of a friend who died in hospital an hour later. I was also a Pallbearer of another friend who also had a terminal impact in another country. I myself had 2 incidents where I knew I wouldn't survive (Hey I did) How can you accept 37% of fatalities coming after a successfully developed main parachute. How can you accept main parachutes that are so sensitive that the smallest error below 500'will kill you. How can espouse a discipline (Swooping) that has the term "Femuring In) as part of it's lexicon (For those that don't know Google broken femur. It's not as nice as an ordinary broken bone). When you have had a collision at 300"I bet you are screaming at YOUR imminent demise not apologising to the person that YOU have just killed or their family or the people that have to pick up your sorry carcase and your victim's. I know most young people are indestuctable (I was too) but you are killing Skydiving. If this continues THE SPORT WILL BE REGULATED OUT OF EXISTENCE (Skydiving was banned in New Zealand for 6 months in the late sixties. Don't think it can't and won't happen in your country) I suppose you will have to go Base Jumping then and destroy that "Sport" Rant over but be careful out there! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Marisan 0 #118 April 19, 2011 Read this! 3 years later and nothing has changed Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
airtwardo 6 #119 April 19, 2011 Quote Read this! 3 years later and nothing has changed Now you're catching on kid...As sad and tragic as the events of the past few weeks have been, it's the same old story...only the names have have changed. If skydiving is truly a 'family' then what you're seeing is a modification of the stages of grief...when acceptance finally comes, things will go back to status quo. I read the demands for change and the ideas spit-balled ad nauseum in the other threads...it's meaningless. I've seen the barrel turn so many times I can't count it anymore. Not until either our governing organization, or the big brother above it steps up and says definitively...do it 'this' way or don't do it at all, will any true resolution to this problem be realized. A few folks went in fighting Blast Handles...they're gone. A couple people slipped through the hole...Y mod. 75% of the fatalities the past few years were after the canopy was open and flying...I guess it needs to be 90% or better before some real action is taken. History seems to show nothing will change, until the gear undergoes some modification to prevent the human element from using it wrong...is THAT where we're at...REALLY?! Booths Law it seems, isn't just a 'theory' Prove me wrong gang, fix this ...I dare ya! ~grumpy old fart rant over~ ~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mjosparky 3 #120 April 19, 2011 QuoteRead this! 3 years later and nothing has changed One thing has changed, Skydivercop’s tourist visa expired and he quit jumping in 2009 But it was pretty easy to see that coming. SparkyMy idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nigel99 144 #121 April 19, 2011 The problem is that changing the gear to make it safer is not really an option. I don't see PD etc stopping selling smaller wings to people. It seems to me that people should have a choice. I think it would be quite legitimate to have "safe" loads at a dz where the grumpy old farts all get on a plane together fly a pattern don't have wingloadings over 1.x. Not so much grounding higher performance gear but allowing people to choose not to be in the air at the same time. We all choose our own risk levels you do what you can to satisfy yourself that you are within boundaries that you accept. The problem comes when someone elses risk profile is in conflict with your own. At that point you need to question how to best mitigate the risk.Experienced jumper - someone who has made mistakes more often than I have and lived. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sundevil777 93 #122 April 19, 2011 Just read a post over in the swooping forum where the potential for 5 chamber parabolic bracing was reviewed. Of course with complexity comes increased cost, but there was hope... Check it out... Quote I hope we get more and more swoopers which will give HP canopies a bigger market share and hopefully companies will spend more on R&D and possibly reduce the cost as they will sell more of them. Why wouldn't everyone want to swoop? People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nigel99 144 #123 April 19, 2011 QuoteWhy wouldn't everyone want to swoop? I think of swooping like flying an F16. I am never going to have the motor skills to do it safely so for me it is not an option. I am a plodder - I think alot and tend to have a relatively slow reaction time (I am well below average at ball sports for example). You all know this but twenty years ago when I did my first jump landing accidents tended to involve bruised egos and the odd broken leg. I would rather stay in that performance bracket as I can't be certain I won't cock up.Experienced jumper - someone who has made mistakes more often than I have and lived. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
airtwardo 6 #124 April 19, 2011 It seems to me that people should have a choice. Quote And they will, until it's taken away from them. Man I loved my Blast Handle...Kill enough people a certain way the 'gubmint gonna say sumpthing' ...scooter helmets, seat belts or cyclamates. PD will have no choice as to what they sell if it can't be jumped it won't be bought. there's nothing 'wrong' with the old tandem student harness if ya use it right, guess we couldn't so it's idiot proofed...there is no choice. Like the poster above said...nothing has changed. Either we as an overall group are too stupid ~OR~ we really don't care. ~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Joellercoaster 6 #125 April 19, 2011 Quotewe as an overall group... really don't care. This second possibility has been keeping me up at night lately.-- "I'll tell you how all skydivers are judged, . They are judged by the laws of physics." - kkeenan "You jump out, pull the string and either live or die. What's there to be good at? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
