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GreenLight

Getting Very Scary Out There

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LMAO...I love it when these turn into a "My dick is bigger than your dick" conversation.



***

It hadn't until you turned it there.

These people with a couple thousand jumps and a couple decades in the sport, riggers and instructors etc.
don't get into those kind of contests, they don't need to because they don't have anything to prove!

They've done it with actions and not words in a thread.

You seem to be trying to wave a ruler and show a measurement...
This isn't a contest it's a discussion, all views are important. If it were a contest...you would lose because it's not dicks being measured, and you haven't gotten that yet.

Listen, learn, be safe.










The Pessimist says: "It can't possibly get any worse!"
The Optimist says: "Sure it can!"

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If Andy Rooney was a Jumper . . .

There's an interesting thread elsewhere on DZcom about the demise of Sky Surfing. I find it interesting as I can trace the sea changes (the things we are talking about in this thread) right back to sky boards. A Sky Surf jump is a thing of beauty in the right hands, and I remember when Robin Berg and Scott Smith are first blowing us away with their moves. But the unintended result is the impact the "board" made on the sport. The boards attracted a group of jumpers who prior couldn't see skydiving as something they wanted. But, the board was something they could relate to, so here they came, the skateboard kids all grown up with their moody angst, their hats on backwards and their drawers hanging down all in a pathetic attempt to be different, except they were all the same . . .

I remember sitting in the loading area at Perris with Arty Patton and our students while Fritz and that other FF guy sat locked in some kind of trance. I looked over at Arty, whose eyebrow was already raised and I said, "That's it, brother, the skateboard generation is here."

The ones defending the board now are the ones drawn to the sport by the board. I understand how it works. We hippies changed the sport according to the straights, and then the lawn darts changed the sport according to us. Someday everything is usurped by the next thing. The first sky board I saw on the DZ was just like the first time a crew cut and spit shined Jacque Istel saw his first long hair in ripped jeans carrying a parachute. He didn't realize it, but it was the end of his world . . .

The only difference is we lasted the longest so far. The straights enjoyed a run lasting from the mid-1950s to the late 1960s. We (the RW hippies) lasted from the late 1960s to the present day. The FF generation is now barley fifteen years old, they are "athletes" now, and they just say "No," and what have they accomplished? I'll admit their controlled funnels do require skill, but their legacy will forever include they killed themselves in record numbers. And they did it by failing to manage the ultimate parlor trick of our profession, landing a parachute.

Sorry, Jacque, I know how you feel now . . .

NickD :)BASE 194

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The FF generation is now barley fifteen years old, they are "athletes" now, and they just say "No," and what have they accomplished?



***

To quote a line from the movie "The Big Chill"


~"I thought because they looked like us and talked like us...they THOUGHT like us...":)

Your post pretty much nails it Nick!B|










~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

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Damn Nick,
You speak real well. Your thought process is amazing! You should write an article about this very subject and have HH post it for everyone to read.
Damn, I'm very impressed.

Talk to us some more!

Linda

Skydiving gave me a reason to live
I'm not afraid of what I'll miss when I die...I'm afraid of what I'll miss as I live






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LMAO...I love it when these turn into a "My dick is bigger than your dick" conversation. Just a joke...take this lightly fellas!



You don't listen for shit, do you. Did you read the first line of my post.

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Please understand this is not meant as a slam or a flame.



This thread is not about safe sex it is about staying alive in the sport of skydiving. If you survive or are still around in 10 years, call me and we can discuss you how much you have learned.>:(

Sparky
My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

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actually, if you're in Perris between July 30 & August 3, or in LA on August 4th, the beer is on me.




Air Trash is meeting at Perris on the 30th in case you need help with your beer...

You gonna be there Sparky? I think we outta all protest by landing into the wind all day.... That'll teach em...:)
Green Light
"Harry, why did you land all the way out there? Nobody else landed out there."
"Your statement answered your question."

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actually, if you're in Perris between July 30 & August 3, or in LA on August 4th, the beer is on me.




Air Trash is meeting at Perris on the 30th in case you need help with your beer...

You gonna be there Sparky? I think we outta all protest by landing into the wind all day.... That'll teach em...:)



I am going to try and be there. And hell, I always land into the wind.:ph34r:;)

Sparky
My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

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That looks damn cool. Unfortunately I won't be at either - I've gotta head on to Ireland, the UK, and Japan to see family and friends. On this trip, the skydiving is just a nice bonus. Next year I should have some more $ and less team commitments... we'll definitely have to organise beer somewhere around the globe!

ps: smack the Oshkosh webmaster: there's a t in Liberty (see the title of the page) :P

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This thread is not about safe sex it is about staying alive in the sport of skydiving. If you survive or are still around in 10 years, call me and we can discuss you how much you have learned



In order to survive in this sport you should learn from a survivor. How does one find out who the survivors are? I know they are still out there jumping but are they approachable? Are the survivors making any effort to share there knowledge or are they just sitting back with their beer watching new people learn the hard lessons they themselves learned it (the hard way). Do you bother to approch jumpers because you can say No need to get to know them they won't be here long enough to warrant my attention. I suspect it gets harder to approach young jumpers every time you get rebuffed and laughed at becauce you are just not as cool as the newer jumpers. Sort of a catch 22. Laughed at if you try to help, but you beat yourself up because you saw this coming and did nothing to stop it. When one of you figures it out let us know.

Avgjoe
Hook it for Safety

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Rather than being one of the people who helped build the sport, I was one of the test dummies during the many transitions. I didn't mind because I knew in my own mind that these guys knew what they were talking about. (boy did they have me fooled!) LOL!. But the main point I was trying to make was that personally, I feel that I am puting myself in a more dangerous position than I used to. Sure, other people being in the air at the same time creates a danger in itself. But inappropriate and dangerous manuvers under canopy was never one of the problems that we had to constantly be aware of. We taught newbies to look around and stay clear of other canopies. We taught them to ALWAYS land into the wind unless it suddenly changed. (then we were supposed to take the down wind or cross wind landing and do a PLF) We also taught them not to make turns too close to the ground. I don't know what they are teaching in the FJCs now but I think it would be a good idea sit in on a ground class and see if these things are still being covered. If they are, then the problem lies with the attitudes of the students who are going through them now.

Do these new students just forget what they are taught? Maybe they think it's not cool to be safe? They are indestructable?

I don't know what the answer is but I do know this. If the local DZO doesn't do something to control this type of behavior like put in a seperate LZ for these boneheads, this old skydiver is going to start looking for another DZ to spend his money at. Too bad I'll have to drive so far to skydive safely. But it's better than getting all wrapped up with someone I don't know.

I would like to ask everyone reading this thread to join in on the last Saturday of this month and protest Swooping In The Main Landing Area by landing into the wind and talking to your DZ managers about this problem. Let's be heard where it counts instead of just talking about it here. Talk to everyone you know who agrees that there should be another place for these people to practice swooping. Tell them to join in on the Swooping Protest. Then if they still don't listen, well there's always that lonely dirt area out there where the students land..... And that's if you're lucky enough to have a seperate landing area for the students. Those of you who's DZ is small and has ONLY one small place to land should be especially interested in protesting the swoopers. You have no other choice.

Again, if Swooping has indeed become a sport unto iteself, then it needs it's own landing area and maybe even it's own airplane. I know that if overhand bowling became a new sport, the rest of the bowlers might want them to have their own alley.
Green Light
"Harry, why did you land all the way out there? Nobody else landed out there."
"Your statement answered your question."

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In order to survive in this sport you should learn from a survivor. How does one find out who the survivors are? I know they are still out there jumping but are they approachable? Are the survivors making any effort to share there knowledge or are they just sitting back with their beer watching new people learn the hard lessons they themselves learned it (the hard way).

I know I can speak for Sparky along with a few others here. I wish I had a buck for every newbie ive helped.....I could buy an Otter. Most of the newbies listen....some dont.
The ones that dont usually find that grid reference where their accident concludes. If they then survive, they become listeners.


bozo
Pain is fleeting. Glory lasts forever. Chicks dig scars.

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I haven't been in the sport as many years as most of these guys but I was taught by them and my head is where theirs is and I am totally approchable if these "young jumpers" would stop long enough to listen. Most just walk away thinking we are too conservative in our ways and find someone who will go along with "their" way of thinking (good or bad, nice or dangerous). So it's not surprising that one might hear us say "let them learn the hard way since they won't listen when warned". What else are we to do?[:/]

Skydiving gave me a reason to live
I'm not afraid of what I'll miss when I die...I'm afraid of what I'll miss as I live






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The only problem is that while they are learning the hard way they are taking out innocent flystanders.... They might come by and ask you to join in on their mistake and that's not good.... Something really does have to be done about this one. It's time to actually quit talking about it and do something. It just isn't right that we are now faced with dual fatalities as a real danger in skydiving. It used to be very rare. It's not so rare now. We must nip this one in the bud folks.
Green Light
"Harry, why did you land all the way out there? Nobody else landed out there."
"Your statement answered your question."

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Something really does have to be done about this one. It's time to actually quit talking about it and do something.

***

I'm all for mounting Twin .50's about slider level...
Having a ring sight would take on a whole new meaning!B|










~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

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In order to survive in this sport you should learn from a survivor. How does one find out who the survivors are? I know they are still out there jumping but are they approachable? Are the survivors making any effort to share there knowledge or are they just sitting back with their beer watching new people learn the hard lessons they themselves learned it (the hard way). Do you bother to approch jumpers because you can say No need to get to know them they won't be here long enough to warrant my attention. I suspect it gets harder to approach young jumpers every time you get rebuffed and laughed at becauce you are just not as cool as the newer jumpers. Sort of a catch 22. Laughed at if you try to help, but you beat yourself up because you saw this coming and did nothing to stop it. When one of you figures it out let us know.



It is for us to figure out.

On this very thread I watched another low-timer pretty much shoot himself in the foot with one of the most respected jumpers here because he didn't like an answer he got. You'll never learn from a "survivor" by avoiding every drop zone they go to. It is our approach and attitude towards the veterans that determines our relationship with them.

I have never had an honest question left unanswered by anyone with experience either in person, or on this forum.

When the veterans start getting concerned about surviving "us" I think we have a problem. By "us" I am not implying that I am a swooper. Looking beyond the surface, the issue seems to be with the attitude of the newer jumpers and a sense of entitlement.

People who are "entitled" tend to miss the concept of "earning."

I love watching swooping done well. I am also grateful that I have never encounterd poor swooping when setting up for final. Then again I never minded the long walk back when I landed on the far end of the field as it gave me time to reflect on some things.

jason

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Hey Joe,

The Survivors are out there and they are pretty easy to pick out. They are old, most of them walk with some kind of a limp and cringe when they hear a 100 jump wonder say “I can handle it”.

Some know more than others but they all know something about saying alive. When you give it some thought it is not the tough a subject. COMMON SENCE in the main thing. The more you use it the long you will last.

And the old farts, like every other skydiver, they have a large ego. If you ask them for their opinion they will be happy to give it to you. You don’t have to live by what they say but if you ask be polite enough to hear them out and nod your head and go Hmmmmm a couple of times. (It makes them feel important) It won’t take you long to figure out which ones know what and which ones are blowing smoke.

The knowledge is out there, all you have to do is want it. It is free.

Sparky
My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

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What I'm seeing alot of is new freeflyers zooming around out of control narrowly missing a bad collision, I try to point out to them that going Z=out of control has no place when jumping with a group of people. They listen for about one day. It's hard telling a new enthusiastic jumper that you don't want to jump with them in a group of say 5 people until they become predictable, but I'm becoming convinced that it is necessary to sometimes just say no, or if others don't like it, to go solo myself.
Blueskys
SCR-21

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If you ever see people with Air Trash caps on at the DZ you are always welcome to ask to jump with us. We pride ourselves on helping out newbies without charging them... All you pay for is your jump and we try to help the best we can. The beer that is drank later on is up to circumstances... Just remember that you will be critisized in a manner that will teach you how to skydive safely and accurately... Don't take it personal... Just part of the game... Then you will be asked to skydive again....
Green Light
"Harry, why did you land all the way out there? Nobody else landed out there."
"Your statement answered your question."

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If you ever see people with Air Trash caps on at the DZ you are always welcome to ask to jump with us. We pride ourselves on helping out newbies without charging them... All you pay for is your jump and we try to help the best we can. The beer that is drank later on is up to circumstances... Just remember that you will be critisized in a manner that will teach you how to skydive safely and accurately... Don't take it personal... Just part of the game... Then you will be asked to skydive again....



Larry,

42 years and 6,000 jumps. How much you think we can show him? :o:P

Sparky
My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

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I was one of the test dummies during the many transitions.



...and I think you're one now. We appear to be in the middle of another transition. For better or worse, high-performance canopies are here to stay, and no-one has quite figured out the right way to help everyone coexist.

Most DZOs aren't idiots (well... maybe financially :P) and they'll do what they can to sort out problems at their dropzone. However, if they don't believe there's a problem, or if it's just another one of the 250 problems on their plate, they're not going to bust balls to fix things.

How about approaching the DZO and talking to him or her about the following points?

  1. You feel unsafe.
  2. You love this DZ and want to continue to jump here.
  3. Fast and slow canopies in the same pattern are causing problems - slower canopies can't see fast canopies planning 90-180-270° turns above and behind them, and fast canopies are getting cut off by slower canopies sashaying.
  4. Separate patterns and landing areas is one potential solution.
  5. Willing to be constructive in finding a solution that benefits all parties.


Or, you could approach one of the respected swoopers at your DZ over a beer. If you just state the problem (stress that you feel unsafe) and ask them for ideas on how to fix it, you'll get a lot more buy-in. They're not the enemy. After all, we're all skydivers B|.

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42 years and 6,000 jumps. How much you think we can show him?



I was talking to everyone and anyone who wants someone to jump with on that one. And I'm sure we could show a guy with 6000 jumps how to do a proper funnel... Not too many people dirt dive those like we do.
Green Light
"Harry, why did you land all the way out there? Nobody else landed out there."
"Your statement answered your question."

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