Please listen to the people around you

[DanG 1]

Within the past two weeks, three people I know have seriously injured themselves landing. All three had been counseled numerous times by friends, instructors, and just about everyone else, that they were making poor choices in equipment, technique, etc. All three chose to ignore that advice. One broke a tibia, one broke a femur and a tibia, and the outcome for the third is still in the air.
If you find yourself hearing people tell you that you are making mistakes, bad choices, cutting it close, pushing the envelope, whatever, please listen to them. People don't say things like that to make you feel bad. They don't say things like that because they are jealous of your incredible talent. They say things like that because they don't want you to kill yourself. We all need to realize that our actions are often seen much more clearly by others than by ourselves. If people are telling you to stop doing whatever you are doing, at least take the time to listen to them, and seriously consider what they are saying. Swallowing your pride may be tough, but it might keep you alive.
- Dan G

[billvon 2,400]

>All three had been counseled numerous times by friends, instructors, and just
> about everyone else, that they were making poor choices in equipment,
> technique, etc. All three chose to ignore that advice. One broke a tibia, one
> broke a femur and a tibia, and the outcome for the third is still in the air.
I would say the second one is the luckiest. I, too, have met a lot of people who simply choose to ignore advice. I used to hope those people never got hurt. Now I hope they break their femurs. A femur break usually heals very well but is scary - and their new fear might just save their lives when they get back in the air. From my experience, a thumb, wrist or even a tibia is not always enough. After losing one friend, and almost losing several, a broken femur seems quite a good trade for a life (or the ability to walk.)
>If people are telling you to stop doing whatever you are doing, at least take
>the time to listen to them, and seriously consider what they are saying.
Unfortunately, the usual reaction is a quick defense - "I'm a good canopy pilot! Joe jumps this size canopy, and I'm as good as Joe! I'm fine, I landed this standing up 9 times out of 10. I have no problems with this canopy, I'm very very careful." People equate "you need more experience before you jump this canopy" to "you suck" - it happens everywhere, even right here in this forum.
When I started jumping, the Sabre was a dangerous new canopy. No one under 100 jumps would ever jump one, and even then, only the very large ones. Every once in a great while, someone would hurt themselves under a Sabre or Monarch, and the experienced jumpers would say "See? Told ya."
Here we are, twelve years later - and nothing's changed. Apart from a few places, there is no more HP canopy control taught than when I was a student jumping DC5's. Sabres can kill you just as dead as they did back then, but they are now considered "beginner" canopies. If the people I learned from heard about that, they'd be screaming about it - "People are going to get killed! You can't do that and expect to survive!" And while many of the new hotshots would call them fossils, they were 100% right - we've almost come to accept that we're going to lose a few low time skydivers a month to mistakes under high performance canopies. And to me, that's really sad. We should know better.
-bill von

[riggerrob 558]

billvon,
With your reference to the introduction of Sabres, you are starting to show your age, but I am even older than you.
I started jump-mastering when military surplus rounds were the only canopies that students were allowed to jump. Mind you there was one renegade in Ontario who allowed his students to jump Para-Commanders. We could not understand how he could cram all the information needed for 3-handle cutaway procedures into a 3 hour first jump course.
Lordy! How times have changed. All the gear that I jumped as a student would be laughed out of my loft!

[crazy 0]

Quote

I, too, have met a lot of people who simply choose to ignore advice. I used to hope those people never got hurt. Now I hope they break their femurs.

Is this only for people who ignore your advice, or for people ignoring advice in general? Any idea why some people choose to ignore some advice? Couldn't it be because there are bad advice (bad content or bad presentation)?
Even though i have no doubt that yours are alway good or excellent, i tend to think that the average level of the advice at many DZ contains a lot of noise. I'm not only talking about the beginners proud of their new knowledge, but also about experienced and very experienced skydivers propagating urban legends, commonplaces and wrong information in an authoritarian manner.
I actually did (and will) choose to ignore advice very often indeed, and i am worried that you might hope i break my femurs.
Blue Skyes
Come

[steve1 5]

Crazy,
There is a lot of advice out there that is probably B.S. But when someone with more experience than I talks about skydiving, I listen. Mainly because I want to keep on breathing, and I don't like seeing my friends die. A lot of folks just won't take "good" advice. If a broken leg wakes someone up and keeps them alive or keeps them from crippling themselves for life, maybe that would be a good trade-off. Steve

[Shark 0]

I agree, education is the key. Unfortunately, people will do what they want to do. I also think it's good when those that have been injured show up to the dz to say hello and thank those who helped them. It also serves to have others see what could happen to them should they themselves get injured. As far as inexperienced jumpers flying small parachutes, well, let's just say that I haven't seen too many get hurt under larger ones...

[billvon 2,400]

>Is this only for people who ignore your advice, or for people ignoring advice in
> general?
Both; Jack Gramley had a bitch session about this a few weeks back. It made us feel better, at least.
>Any idea why some people choose to ignore some advice? Couldn't it be
> because there are bad advice (bad content or bad presentation)?
Of course. Learning who to trust is a very important first step in most jumper's progressions. Fortunately, our lives before skydiving often prepares us well to make those decisions - knowing who to trust is critical in everyday life, not just skydiving.
>I actually did (and will) choose to ignore advice very often indeed, and i
> am worried that you might hope i break my femurs.
I would never hope that unless you were on the road to doing something much worse to yourself. Of the 1500 students and perhaps 1500 experienced jumpers I've coached, jumped with, and organized, I've only really hoped that five or six times. One of those people is now dead and one will never walk normally again. Three had serious injuries (broken femurs, compound arms) and either quit the sport or toned it down. One made it through with minor injuries and is now a pretty competent skydiver. I really wish the first two had gotten the experience they needed _before_ they needed it; the others seem to have made it, sometimes just barely.
Fortunately, most people out there can learn without needing to be broken up. It's the ones you just can't reach that haunt me - it's hard to see a friend or aquaintance of yours heading towards a serious injury or death and not be able to do anything to stop them.
-bill von

[billvon 2,400]

>I agree, education is the key. Unfortunately, people will do what they want to do.
Yep. The best I can do is to explain to them that doing what they want to do may put them in a wheelchair for life or worse - so they better be absolutely, positively sure that that's OK with them.
> I also think it's good when those that have been injured show up to the dz to
>say hello and thank those who helped them.
I agree. About three years ago I had a talk with a jumper at Brown who was getting set to kill himself under a 190ish canopy - he was toggle hooking and stabbing the brakes to plane it out. At his loading (over 1:1) he was eventually going to hit the ground very hard. He didn't listen much - after all, I was an old fart who jumped a "huge" Sabre 150. He continued, and one day he hooked just a foot too low and cracked a vertebra. It gives him problems to this day.
I saw him at Perris this weekend. He had just come in first in one of the PPPB swooping events, and he talked about how much he had learned about canopy flying. "Yeah, I didn't listen to you back then, I was an idiot," he said. "I try to tell people that story, that you gotta listen and learn to survive doing stuff like this. I was lucky." Hopefully, coming from one of the best swoopers in Southern California, it may make an impression.
-bill von

[grosfion 0]

I have the impression that most of the people start to listen to other people before they start to think....
Sometimes I think it's better to use your own brain before adapting knowledge from others. I'm not talking about sudents, but still in this stage logic is helpful.
blues
Marcus

[crazy 0]

Quote

Of course. Learning who to trust is a very important first step in most jumper's progressions. Fortunately, our lives before skydiving often prepares us well to make those decisions - knowing who to trust is critical in everyday life, not just skydiving.

I strongly disagree. Our everydays life doesn't prepare us to this. We usually trust the experts in disciplines that we respect (for instance doctors) and many beginners tend to trust their instructor and the other experienced skydivers.
I understand your frustration when you are unable to save someone who is not willing to listen to your sound advices. However, when i read the title of this thread and some of the comments, i also think about at least one fatality and several serious injuries which are the result of very bad advices.
When you are at a large DZ, like Perris, with lots of incredibly trustworthy people, it's easy to know who you can trust. In smaller structures, you don't have much choice.
Come

[billvon 2,400]

>I strongly disagree. Our everydays life doesn't prepare us to this.
Most people never learn who to trust? I have to disagree. We start learning this in the playground, and continue our whole lives.
> We usually trust the experts in disciplines that we respect (for instance doctors)
> and many beginners tend to trust their instructor . . .
Right, those two are pretty similar. Doctors are trained to care for people medically, instructors are trained to teach new jumpers. In most cases you can trust them. However, even non-medically-trained patients often get second opinions before trusting a doctor 100%. I once got a second opinion on some orthopedic surgery, which was a good thing. If the original doctor had had his way I'd be on crutches now at the very least. How do people know to not trust a doctor 100%? They use those same instincts they've been developing since that playground in elementary school.
>and the other experienced skydivers.
The equivalent here would be trusting medical advice that a fellow patient gives you in the hospital. It may well be valid, especially if they've gone through what you have - but more care is required, _especially_ if you don't know him or his history. (i.e. perhaps his knee problem is due to him being overweight, so his experience does not apply to you.)
>When you are at a large DZ, like Perris, with lots of incredibly trustworthy people,
> it's easy to know who you can trust. In smaller structures, you don't have much
> choice.
I think the opposite is often true as well. At Perris, you can see ten new people every weekend, and many are experts there for competitions. It's hard to get to know them well enough to trust them. At smaller DZ's, where there isn't as much transient traffic, I think it's easier to get to know people well, and figure out whose advice is good and whose isn't.
-bill von

[DanG 1]

When I posted this thread I wasn't saying that all advice you will get is good, so listen to it. I was trying to remind people that if everyone who talks to you says the same thing, then just maybe you should listen. Too often I see people who keep doing stupid stuff, no matter how many people tell them to stop. It is not a matter or sifting through all the different advice to find the good stuff. I was talking about those people who keep getting the same advice over and over from different people. It is highly unlikely that this is 'bad' advice.
On a final note, I tend to trust any advice which is more conservative in nature. It is the advice to the effect of, "Try it, you probably won't get hurt," that should be viewed with more scrutiny.
- Dan G

[jbrasher 0]

You obviously don't know some of the people at Perris. :-)
Red, White and Blue Skies,
John T. Brasher D-5166

[crazy 0]

Quote

You obviously don't know some of the people at Perris. :-)

Well, now that you're talking about it, people there tried to kill me a few times with terrible advices: offering budveiser when i need beer :-)
BB
Come

[quade 3]

For instance, please see the thread in Swooping titled Downwind Stall.
quade
http://futurecam.com

[indyz 1]

See also the May 2002 issue of Parachutist, specifically the letter to the editor labelled "The Science of Swoop."
--
Brian

[kopelen 0]

Glad to see and hear that some people listen to those that have been there done that, or seen that. Having been the subject of a skydiving accident at around 86 jumps, I teach all my students to be aware of what experienced and knowledgeable jumpers say. This is one of those sports where we all continue to learn no matter the experience level.

[ForeverDive 0]

I lost a very close friend of mine just about one week ago, and it's been a very tiresome week for all his family and his friends. I'm writing because the way he went should be reported fully, so that we all may learn from his fatal mistakes. Other wise it makes his death less meaningful, and I don't want my friend to have died needlessly. My friend died for two reasons. The first reason he died is the same way we lose so many of our brethren. He downsized to quickly and without proper training or instruction.
WAKE UP PEOPLE. I keep hearing about how we should limit high performance landings and limit downsizing. Swooping is here to stay, and people are going to want to do it sooner in their career than people have done in the past. I'm not saying that it's a good thing, but whether we like it or not people are still going to do it. And it's killing people. The one thing I learned from TV when I was a kid is this:
You can build a fence around a pool to keep kids from swimming, but they'll still climb it and go swimming when you're not looking. So, what do you do? You teach them how to swim.
You can try to keep teenagers from having sex by preaching and calling it taboo, but they'll still do it. So what do you do? You teach them to do it safely.
SO, what we must do is teach people how to swoop and how to downsize. Then after they have all the knowledge they need to do it safely, then they can decide if and when they want to do it. We must have free will in our sport; it's the only way our sport will evolve. How do we do this? The information is out there about how to learn safely and efficiently. Brain Germain, John LeBlanc, and Bryan Burke all have seminars out there. The problem is that it's not getting to everyone who is downsizing. You have to have a lot of determination to go out and seek this information, and people's egos get in the way of doing this. "I've landed safely 300 times in the past, why would I need to learn how to do it more safely under a smaller canopy." This line of thinking is killing people.
Please, I urge those of you who have thousands of jumps, those of you who know how to control canopies, and those of you who know how to teach to develop canopies schools like the one in California. Places where people experienced or not can get real canopy training and eventually, incorporate this into student training. All I learned as a student was that you pull right to go right, pull left to go left, and pull both to flare. And this is the saddest part of all, that we don't train students in the art of canopy flight. To the few that do, I applaud you. Unfortunately, Evolution (the canopy school in California) is too far away and a little expensive for many of us to go there, so I have to seek information in paper form or pry it out of the experienced guys. Please, develop schools, those of you who have the resources, to train us to do this the right way instead of using the trial and error way. We are losing too many people under open canopies. Education is the key to stop this nonsense.
On any other day I'd be done here, and I'd leave you to ponder that. However, I did say that my friend died for two reasons. My friend had just sold his canopy and he needed a new one soon. He also had a very limited budget, so when he found a great deal for a smaller canopy he convinced himself that he could handle the smaller canopy. Seven jumps later the reaper came for a visit.
I think the moral of the story is clear. Don't let money make life-threatening decisions for you. This includes the price of training and the price of proper gear. I don't know how this sport got so expensive, but don't let this be the reason for your demise.
Justin
Carbondale, Illinois

[Tee 0]

I think we also have to remember that when people give us advice, that they are able to watch our techniques from afar. When we do certain things, such as hooks/carves, swoops, freefall manouvres we can think we are doing it correctly, it feels right but in actual fact, it is all wrong. That is why people learn so much faster by watching themselves on video or in a mirror (windtunnels). We are going through this right now at our dz. There is a person who has been learning hook turns for about 60 jumps and it doing them WAY too low and he wouldn't listen to anyone. Just the other day, he broke his kneecap.
If you start to think EVERYONE around you is wrong and doesn't know what they are talking about...possibly you should look at yourself. tee

[freeflir29 0]

Yep....I know someone just like this. He was told he WOULD NOT be jumping a Xaos 98 with 300 and some jumps at this DZ. So he left and went to another DZ that doesn't give a shit what you fly. He hasn't actually broken any bones yet as far as I know but I'm sure it will happen. He seems to think that instruction from swoopers can make up for a lack in jump numbers. I hope he doesn't turn out to be DEAD wrong.
"Here I come to save the BOOBIES!"

[rhino 0]

Guys.... We shouldn't speak about expecting others to break bones.. Bad form.....
Maybe he is better at 300 jumps than most pilots at 1000 jumps.. It is possible you know.. Don't let numbers fool you as to ones skill. Anyone who skydives knows the risks and can jump any damn thing they want to if they can get their hands on it. It's your choice and no one elses.. Get use to it..
Instead of bagging these "myself included" canopy pilots that are more aggressive "with lower jump numbers" maybe we should be wishing them the best in what they are looking for instead of talking broken bones at them..
Rhino
Blue Skies .....

[billvon 2,400]

>maybe we should be wishing them the best in what they are looking for instead
>of talking broken bones at them..
I used to wish that people who were jumping canopies they could not fly would never get hurt. I hate it when people I know, people I am friends with, and people I love get hurt and killed. But after a while, I discovered that there is a class of people who are simply going to get hurt. They all share some common characteristics; I'm sure everyone has met someone who is simply on course for a trauma bay. And of these people, I found that a sprained ankle doesn't change them - they keep jumping with no more care than before, generally in a cast. Sometimes they don't learn in time, and they die, or screw themselves up permanently. This is the worst possible outcome.
But sometimes they are lucky enough to seriously injure themselves in a) a way that will heal well and b) in a way that scares them. They finally learn that skydiving can kill you, and that their families and friends will lose them if they continue along the road they are on. Once they learn that, their odds of survival go from even to excellent.
It's never fun to break your femur or see someone else break their femur. But if that person is a friend of mine who can learn no other way, I am happy to see them learn the lesson that will let me remain their friend for years to come. Living skydivers are far preferable to dead ones, in my book.