emergency exit

[goose491 0]

Hello all,

I experienced my pre-secong (hopfully not) "emergency" exit a couple 'o weekends ago. It was not all that bad a deal but here goes.

My 51st jump, I'm on the first load of the day and planning on doing a coach sit jump from 11.500' with a friend. There are two solos on the load with us (the load organizer and one hop 'n pop)
Anyway, we open the door at about 2,500 to throw out a wind-drift and the load organizer spots fuel leaking from the wing. He looks to the pilot:"Is that fuel?" the pilot:"Yup... Shit!" So load organizer shouts:"That's a fuel leak, we're going!". Now he's sitting co-pilot (C182) and the hop 'n pop in front of me gets out. I look at my buddy and he's relaxing looking out the window when L/O says again:"we're going we're going!"

Neither of us took him seriously at first, I mean two and half thousand feet and we have a fuel leak directly above the DZ... we both still had helmets in hand when I asked:"Are you serious?" At this point, I could see that he was nervous but the pilot wasn't so I put my helmet on quickly and got out... Had he or the pilot shouted "Get out!" I would most likely have been out and under canopy faster than I could figure out what was wrong but the magic words were never spoken.. I guess the point is that had this been a real emergency (being a pilot, I don't see a fuel leak at 2.5 directly above the DZ an emergancy), our response time SUCKED! I was comfotable getting out at this altitude (though my spectre takes it sweet-ass time opening sub-terminal). The hop 'n pop later told me his alti said just over 2... I replied that it must have meant just under 3

I was a little upset about being forced out of the plane when the pilot could have climbed to a "safer" altitude, let us out and still landed... Or... we could all have landed with the plane (Hrm.. not my first choice... if it was THAT bad!) Any thoughts?
Anyway, got a free hop 'n pop out of it

My Karma ran over my Dogma!!!

[diverdriver 5]

Sounds like you did the correct thing. If the pilot was not excited but did want you to get out then that's what sounds like happened. The engine was running. And it wasn't on fire. Where was the leak coming from? The cap on top of the wing?

Chris Schindler
www.diverdriver.com
ATP/D-19012
FB #4125

[goose491 0]

Yeah man,
the cap was not secured and opened in the air... I mean there was alot of fuel but like you said, the plane was otherwise in tact and functional. If I was flying this load, I would have climbed a bit more, kicked everyone out and then landed.

My Karma ran over my Dogma!!!

[quade 3]

Depending on the severity of the "leak" it could have, in fact, been an emergency. For instance, a fuel cap that has been left off can siphon a FULL fuel tank pretty damn quick -- maybe 5 minutes. That isn't a particularly uncommon mistake either.

I'll agree that 2,500 AGL over a runway with a running engine might not be considered an emergency by a lot of folks, but there's no way the pilot could be certain how long that engine would continue to run. My guess is that had a fuel cap been left unsecured, time might already be close.

Anyway, I know I definately would have taken advantage of the situation and gotten out had the pilot suggested as much. 2,500 AGL is just fine by me and I too jump a Spectre.

Oh, one more thing, I'm also a CFI. I know a little bit about engine out landings and even though it's one of my favorite things to drill students on, I know that a lot of times, people can misjudge this sort of thing and end up short or much, much worse.

Yeah, I definately would have gotten out at 2,500 AGL over the landing area (as opposed to riding it down).

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[billvon 2,400]

>I was a little upset about being forced out of the plane when the pilot
> could have climbed to a "safer" altitude, let us out and still landed...

2500 is about the safest altitude you're going to get when it comes to a bailout . . . keep in mind that a 1500 foot bailout is a normal one from an aircraft with a problem, and they have happened considerably lower.

[goose491 0]

Like I said, I had no problem getting out (we were not exactly at 2,500 yet)

The way I figure it is as follows, what do you think?

2 grand and above: I'm out hop n' pop style
1 grand and below: I'm landing with the plane and
in between: I'm out with silver handle off the step

what about the call? I never heard "Get out!" from anybody which I've always drilled in my head as the magic words... Had I heard that, I'm positive I would have been like... GONE!... Hey where did Nick go???

My Karma ran over my Dogma!!!

[ifallout 0]

maybe a bit scary but better safe than sorry, and if everyone is ok, like you said, free hop n pop...

and if the pilot says to leave the plane the best plan is always to leave the plane i guess.


Glad you guys are all fine

Bill

have fun, love life, be nice to the humans

[rmcvey 0]

While we're on the subject, what altitude does everyone consider high/low enough to go for the silver instead of the main in an aircraft emergencey?

Like someone said, some canopies are slow openers so im guessing heights vary, but would like to here some opinions.

<1000 stay with the plane
I would say 1000-1800 and im going for silver
anything above that the trusty (but slow) cobalt.

[SkymonkeyONE 3]

2500 feet with the engine still running? I would have launched the formation If I didn't think I would get gas all over my gear (assuming a starbord wing leak).

Chuck

[Deuce 1]

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At this point, I could see that he was nervous but the pilot wasn't

Good pilot. Pilots, when they become emergency workers, should always be able to do that "Houston, we have a problem" thing. They calm us baggage down enough so that we can put on our helmets and exit. If they give you that cold as ice "Jumpers exit now" OBEY. IMMEDIATELY.

The drafted generations have those of us who came later beat on this. There's a time to demand "why" and there are times when we should immediately jump without asking "how high?"

If you are with competent people, JUST DO IT.

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[faulknerwn 36]

I was in a Super Otter this winter which had an engine problem and we were ordered to bail between 1200-1300 feet. Of the 18 or so of us who went, 15 went on their mains, 2 on their reserves, and one guy (who had been instructed to go out on his reserve as he only had 20 jumps or so) went out dumped his main unstable, pc wrapped around his neck and he got a good reserve out about 900-1000 feet.

Anything above a grand I'm going for my main. I want 2 chances if something goes wrong. I don't like limiting my options. Remember that if the plane is still flying level, most of your deployment is horizontal not vertical. There's a big difference between leaving an airplane at 1500 feet and finding yoruself at terminal after a freefalll there.

W

[rmcvey 0]

Anything above a grand I'm going for my main.


Do you wear a AAD?

I just feel 1000 feet is to close to the activation height of my particular AAD. ie 750ft.

Also ive had an 800ft opening on my main.

let me know your thoughts.

[faulknerwn 36]

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Anything above a grand I'm going for my main.
Do you wear a AAD?

No I don't. But numeours people on that load did have Cypreses. The aircraft in this case had never gotten above 1500 feet however so the Cypreses were never armed. None fired.

I just feel 1000 feet is to close to the activation height of my particular AAD. ie 750ft.

RIght. But if the plane hasn't crossed the 1500 foot threshhold the Cypres isn't activated anyway. But yes, it is certainly reasonable to raise your altitude for main deployment depending on if you have a Cypres.

Also ive had an 800ft opening on my main.

Yes, but you do know how you can encourage it to open faster right? Extremely few canopies won't speed up their openings if you yank on the rear risers really hard (some people prefer brakes, I prefer risers.) If you're low, absolutely be pumping those risers instead of sitting back and watching. (I normally steer with my harness only and such on normal openings, but when I'm low I'm not going to take the time to let it play itself out.

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[MarkM 0]

Do some hop and pops and see how long it takes for your main to open, that way you know for sure how much altitude you need.

On a Cypres, even if it's armed I don't see why it'd fire. It works off of a vertical speed that you won't reach for, what, 8 seconds after bailing out?

[Michele 1]

I am in a lightly loaded rental Spectre and I am a low number jumper, so I figure that what I was taught will be what I do...2500 or less, silver.

But I hope to never have to test this one out.

Ciels and Pinks-
Michele

~Do Angels keep the dreams we seek
While our hearts lie bleeding?~

[MarkM 0]

Well, my first jumps were hop and pops from 3000, so in my mind an exit from 2500 feet is a lot of altitude. If that altitude makes you nervous you might want to make some hop and pops to get used to leaving low.

The only reason I'd think of going reserve above 1.5k is if I want a faster opening to give me more time to find a better landing area.

But I guess as long as you pull something it's all good.

[Michele 1]

Nope, not concerned about me at that alti, it's just the snivelly canopy...I'll get out when told. It's just which to pull, you know?

Ceils and Pinks-
M

~Do Angels keep the dreams we seek
While our hearts lie bleeding?~

[SatchFan 0]

I have always had a question about that. I have been told to go straight for your reserve handle if you are still in the "red" on your alti. What exactly is the purpose behind that and is it necessary to pull your cut-away handle first?

[faulknerwn 36]

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I have always had a question about that. I have been told to go straight for your reserve handle if you are still in the "red" on your alti. What exactly is the purpose behind that and is it necessary to pull your cut-away handle first?

You tell us. If you're in an emergency, and your main hasn't been deployed, what benefit would you gain by pulling your cutaway?

I had a friend who had a total mal (couldn't find the main pc), dumped his reserve, blew a bunch of lines on it, it streamered, he found his main handle and dumped that into the mess. It opened and he walked away unhurt.

As far as pulling your silver handle when you're in the red on the altimeter, its a time thing - you're already low and you're running out of altitude fast. What people's minimums are for where they open their main is an individual thing. It depends a lot on experience, practice in hop and pops, type of canopy etc. What you were taught is a good rule for a student. As you get more experienced and do some hop and pops you'll get more comfortable with pulling lower. Many SL students do their first jump from 3 grand - most AFF students view that as crazily low. A lot depends on what you're used to.

[rgoper 0]

a suggestion:

if anybody who is between 20-200 jumps who isn't acclaimated to low altitude jumping, do your self a favor and stay current on your hop-n-pops. you'll get to know your canopy better, and if the occasion should arise to where you have to exit low, the "freak factor" wont take over. don't count on your AAD to activate your reserve in such a situation. also, if you ever get a chance, do a balloon jump. after a few of these experiences i've got to where i get a charge out of bailing at 2500-3500, definitely a different experience! always be prepared for the unplanned, have a plan "B" but we must constantly train. take care, be safe...stay ready!

--Richard--
"We Will Not Be Shaken By Thugs, And Terroist"

[SatchFan 0]

Thanks Faulk for the info but I still am not clear on the reasoning behind telling a student to go straight to their silver. Does the reserve normally open quicker or is it just supposed to be easier?? I am still a little unclear on the "why".

[faulknerwn 36]

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Thanks Faulk for the info but I still am not clear on the reasoning behind telling a student to go straight to their silver. Does the reserve normally open quicker or is it just supposed to be easier?? I am still a little unclear on the "why".

Ah yes. The reason we all have an altitude below with we go straight to the reserve is

a. The reserve is designed to open faster
b. The reserve is packed by someone specially trained - it should be
somewhat more reliable than a main.
c. They're 7-cells, i.e. typically more docile than our mains - so less likely to have squirrely openings and less likely to mal.
d. Most people pack their mains to open softly (slowly). Reverses are packed to OPEN. I believe 300 feet is what is required to pass the TSO - most open faster than that.
e. A reserve has a freebag - i.e. the bag isn't attached to the parachute. This can help if you open unstable or something there is more of a chance the parachute will open even if part of the system is wrapped around an arm or a leg.

So in an emergency when you need a canopy NOW, your reserve is a more reliable choice. At some altitude for everyone, a bailout would go straight to the reserve for the above safety reasons. You wouldn't have time to implement emergency procedures anyway (again, this altitude varies with the person).

[billvon 2,400]

>so I figure that what I was taught will be what I do...2500 or
> less, silver.

Nothing wrong with that, but keep in mind that if you do decide to bail out on your main at 2500 feet in the future, you will have around 15 seconds to pull and verify that you do not have a high speed mal - more time than you have if you pull at 3000 feet in freefall.

[f1freak 0]

it's funny, i have done SO many hop -n- pop jumps at "oh were close enough to 2000 " that there is no way i would think twice about getting out. i think for myself if I were under 1000 and "trash packed" before that jump i would be lookin for my freebag when i landed.
It's all in how you think you should handle the situation. you know what you need to do

HAVE FUN...
...JUST DONT DIE

[freeflir29 0]

Ummm....I did a H&P from 1800 Ft not long ago. It took until right about 1000 for me to be under a FULLY inflated canopy. If I exited at 1300....that means open canopy around 500Ft. Granted I would know long before that if my Stilletto was going to open or not...but....I don't think I'll be dumping my main under 1500 or so. Thanks..... Now...if I had a Saber.....