VivaHeadDown 0 #51 August 19, 2002 A quick word on part of the initial post not yet addressed: Around 50 jumps, never having done a hop'n'pop, we had an otter shut off an engine at <3K. The pilot turned around, yelled a loud Get Out, and we all got out calmly and quickly. Luckily I was near the front of the plane with a friend in the same experience catagory of never having done a h'n'p and with about 50 jumps. I remember reacting with kind of a "what, are you kidding" and smiling since I had no clue what was going on. The nice jumpers around us said no hurry, just that we were getting out and so put on our helmets and made sure we were comfortable with doing the low alti jump. They even let us go in front of them to sort of coach us to the door and watch our exits. Everything went smooth, and then I could say I'd done my first hop'n'pop. It was nice having the distinct "get out" from the pilot, but I think the first time anyone hears from the pilot to take a hike, no matter how clear it is, they will probably not get it imediately so don't feel bad about hesitating. Don't Confuse Me With My Own Words Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,400 #52 August 20, 2002 >It was nice having the distinct "get out" from the pilot . . ., Yep, and that's important. Often pilots will say it three times because everyone misses the first one - "What? You want us to what?" >they will probably not get it imediately so don't feel bad about > hesitating. Actually, treat it like a life or death situation, because it sometimes is. There was a cessna crash a few years back where four or five people bailed out of a seriously disabled plane - the last two did not survive since they got out too low. A faster exit may have saved their lives. If you have the altitude, hesitation may be tolerated. If you're low, and you hesitate, you might find yourself thrown out the door, and such events are not conducive to clean exits or stable deployments. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RichM 0 #53 August 20, 2002 QuoteRisk is relative to the individual. Yes Quote Just because 750 feet is unsafe to you doesn't make it unsafe for everyone. I'd suggest that 750 has a fixed statistical level of risk. I think what changes is the individuals acceptable level of risk. As my mum said, don't go skydiving it's dangerous. Well, it is... to her Rich M Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
freeflir29 0 #54 August 20, 2002 Quote"there's no logic in jumping without a reserve! There's a reason we have them, and jumping without one is idiotic." Thats why they make a Sorcerer..... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jerm 0 #55 August 21, 2002 Quotecatagory of never having done a h'n'p and with about 50 jumps. i still have issues with this... isn't a hop&pop the final requirement of AFF? Or is that just brushed-over at big turbine DZs? *sigh* i have a huge pet-peeve about people who are afraid to exit at 3k but will deploy at 3 or 3.5 at terminal -- especially when it's a product of the training they were dealt. Landing without injury is not necessarily evidence that you didn't fuck up... it just means you got away with it this time Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
VivaHeadDown 0 #56 August 21, 2002 What are you, new? It wasn't always required. At least not as recent as 1998 in Florida. I agree that hop'n'pops are important, and at the same time no big deal once you've experienced one. But it was my first and that's why it was unusual. Hey, the plane could have lost an engine at jump number 8 just off AFF and I'd have still reacted the same way. Enough with the "issues" and pet-peeves, instead of telling me you've got a problem with my past progression, why not go out and be an advocate for the current AFF program. Or if you want to know the whole story of me, then we can go over that too. Either way, I've gotten defensive so am going to end this message since it wasn't my intent. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
christoofar 0 #57 August 21, 2002 QuoteQuotecatagory of never having done a h'n'p and with about 50 jumps. i still have issues with this... isn't a hop&pop the final requirement of AFF? Or is that just brushed-over at big turbine DZs? *sigh* i have a huge pet-peeve about people who are afraid to exit at 3k but will deploy at 3 or 3.5 at terminal -- especially when it's a product of the training they were dealt. I agree. This one has come up before (people avoiding HNPs). HNPs are useful for several for several reasons, but the most important one is getting used to bailing out in an emergency situation quickly at a lower altitude than normal. You should be totally comfortable with exiting the plane at 5 1/2 and below, tracking for seperation, and deployment. In the real situation, should it happen, don't waste time with your "accessories" (i.e. helmet, goggles, board, tube), leave them in the plane and get the F*** out! ____________________________________________________________ I'm RICK JAMES! Fo shizzle. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
seedy 0 #58 August 21, 2002 In the AFP program I am going thru, jump number 8 is a Hop n' Pop at 3500'. I intend to live forever -- so far, so good. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jessefs 0 #59 August 21, 2002 How is your AFP set up, I was wondering if it was the same as mine or if they differ at different DZ's jesse <* Spread the Love! *> Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhreeZone 15 #60 August 21, 2002 AFP differs DZ to DZ and even student to student.Yesterday is history And tomorrow is a mystery Parachutemanuals.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
seedy 0 #61 August 21, 2002 I sent a PM showing our course. I intend to live forever -- so far, so good. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Shark 0 #62 August 21, 2002 As part of our program and ISP at Skydive Elsinore, a student will have to perform an Emergency Exit simulation. Basically a hop-n-pop from 5 grand. It is recommended to be completed once the student solos after AFF. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 1,623 #63 August 22, 2002 QuoteYou should be totally comfortable with exiting the plane at 5 1/2 and below, tracking for seperation, and deployment. Jeez - my 10-way team does a no show exit at 5.5, completes a formation, tracks and deploys by 3. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
allrightscud 0 #64 August 23, 2002 I have an other question relating to this thread. I mostly jump cessna's and an emergency out would only involve 4 to 5 people. Not too many canopies close together. What's the drill if its a big turbine and say has 20 people getting out. Do you pull as soon as your stable out the door. Do you try and track a bit then pull. I realise that height plays an important part in this but what's your thoughts on it. Tom Too much is never enough! All right scud? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,400 #65 August 23, 2002 >What's the drill if its a big turbine and say has 20 people getting out. Exit, pull immediately. For people who grew up at a cessna DZ, this is sort of a non-issue; you just keep an eye on the person who exits next so you don't run into him/her. (Remember, it's the guy you _don't_ see who's dangerous.) For people unused to hop and pops with multiple people it can be scary, but it's really not as bad as you think it is. Even 3/4 of a second between people gives you 100 feet or so of separation, and that's enough if you keep your eye on the guy you want to avoid. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
allrightscud 0 #66 August 23, 2002 Thanks Bill. Hop and pops aren't an issue my first free fall was a 3 second delay with a round and belly mount. From 2300 feet. That was only in 1992. It was the larger loaded turbines I was concerned about. Tom Too much is never enough! All right scud? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ifallout 0 #67 August 24, 2002 i jump at a turbine DZ, and we have done high altitude hop-n-pops where everyone is leaving just a second apart, you have more seperation than you would think. Exit stable and pull, it is an emergency after all. Bill have fun, love life, be nice to the humans Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kurt 0 #68 August 27, 2002 Whats wrong with 2500ft, straight on top of the DZ.??? Safer altitude? Now you have more time to handel a problem, then On theminal velocity with a pull at 3000/3500ft. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
goose491 0 #69 August 27, 2002 QuoteWhats wrong with 2500ft, straight on top of the DZ.??? Safer altitude? Now you have more time to handel a problem, then On theminal velocity with a pull at 3000/3500ft. I realize this... this is why I said "safer" instead of safer.... really I only meant HIGHER! My point was that neither I, nor the others in the plane (including pilot) believed this to be a plane-incapacitating situation. Being on the way to 11,500 and asked to get out under 2,500 is a bummer at best... I might of added that I have done several Hop 'N pops from below this altitude and felt safe Then again, as I mentioned in my original post: "free hop n' pop" My Karma ran over my Dogma!!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Scrumpot 1 #70 August 28, 2002 QuoteQuoteWhats wrong with 2500ft, straight on top of the DZ.??? Safer altitude? Now you have more time to handel a problem, then On theminal velocity with a pull at 3000/3500ft. I realize this... this is why I said "safer" instead of safer.... really I only meant HIGHER! My point was that neither I, nor the others in the plane (including pilot) believed this to be a plane-incapacitating situation. Being on the way to 11,500 and asked to get out under 2,500 is a bummer at best... I might of added that I have done several Hop 'N pops from below this altitude and felt safe Then again, as I mentioned in my original post: "free hop n' pop" Chit, in the "olden days" anything above 2,500 & we'd be pulling a 4-way peice off, turn a few points, & still have time to track 'n dump with plenty o' separation! coitus non circum - Moab Stone Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Quincy 0 #71 August 29, 2002 For a different point of view, you started by asking two main questions... 1. About "Having" to exit in this situation... 2. The altitude... Most of the replies have been on altitude, and some good points. As to your first concern on having to get out under those circumstances, it's pretty clear. If the L/O and pilot say out, then it's out. No, the pilot wasn't screaming. What if he had though? I jump almost exclusively from 182's. I'd rather have a pilot I trust calmly tell a load, "Out," than have him start to stroke yelling at everyone "GET OUT!!!" You could very easily end up in a panic type situation, and there just ain't enough room in a 182 for people to get squirrely. As to the leak, it's easy to second guess a leaky cap now that you're back on the ground. The critical point is, you didn't know that was the cause while in the air. The situation would have been quite a bit different if you had tried to ride it up for more altitude, or down, and ended up with a spark and fire outside the jump door. Not a good exit scenario. From my perspective, the pilot and L/O did the right thing. Your skill level, training, and altitude should dictate which handle you pull. Again, those points have already been pretty thoroughly covered. In closing, you had three real positives here.... 1. Neat entry for the log book... 2. Free jump... 3. MOST IMPORTANT....all got down safely...!!!... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
