Audiable altimeters for students...

[Clownburner 0]

Ok, I'm an AFF student. I'm thinking of getting an audiable altimeter, and here's my reasoning.

Ultimately, I'm responsible for my own safety. There are situations where the JM(s) aren't going to be able to save my dumb butt, so I'd like to insure my survival, in as much as that's possible to do.

In order to avoid becoming 'dependant' on an audiable while I try to further develop my altitude awareness, I was thinking the best thing to do is to use it as strictly a 'backup' system, setting the alarm altitude to a few hundred feet below the point I'm supposed to be deploying. That way, I can still do the work 'manually' (well, with the help of a visible altimeter) but there's an additional backup system in case I totally brain-lock or something and just blow my deployment altitude while the JM is unable to assist.

Good idea? Bad idea? What do you folks think?

---
NOTE: It seems like some people aren't reading the whole post here. The audible would be set to only go off BELOW my intended deployment altitude, as a last-resort reminder, say at 4000, as insurance against total brain-fade, not at 6000 as a replacement for altitude awareness.

7CP#1 | BTR#2 | Payaso en fuego Rodriguez
"I want hot chicks in my boobies!"- McBeth

[freakous 0]

It's probably best to take this up with your AFF instructors and see how they feel about this issue.

[Albatross 0]

From what I have been told, they will not let you jump with an audible until you are off student status bcause they need to beable to see that you are altitude aware.

Chris

[CanuckInUSA 0]

Wait until you are off AFF, then get a few solo jumps in and once you know you're altitude aware, get yourself an audible.

Try not to worry about the things you have no control over

[hookitt 0]

very good question. I don't have a good answer for that and I'm an AFF instructor. I think that having something screeamin in your ear at 5 or 6 thousand feet would startle the hell out of most Students, there fore being a bad Idea.

Look at it this way, you have to be altitude aware. It's a prerequisit to getting off Student status.

Also, Students regularily look at the altimeter at 6000 feet when no more maneuvres are supposed to occur. Instead of maintaining altitude awareness and waving off and pulling at 5000, they get anxious and wave off and pulll immeadiatly.

Now take the anticipation of 6000 feet approaching and then add and extremely loud reminder that you JUST PASSED 6000 feet. Instant panic, being tense, Just a rapid pull sequence.

at 5000 or 5500 feet when the wave off, arch....reach....Pull occurs, it really shoudl be a smooth as possible. An audible is something to add when you are cleared and comfortable with skydiving.

Anther thing, You and the instructor are the only 2 people out there. Atitude awareness is one of the largest points of focus on any dive.

My grammar sometimes resembles that of magnetic refrigerator poetry... Ghetto

[Kirils 1]

If you jumped without an altimeter, would you be able to pull at 3000'? Don't use an audible till you are altitude aware. It's is extremely important to become altitude aware with depending on your altimeter. If you have a violent mal you might not even be able to see your wrist mount or hear the audible. Be smart..be safe.

[TitaniumLegs 8]

I'm an AFF/I. I AM your audible altimeter. I'm also your other AAD, if you miss your window. Like both devices, I am not 100% reliable (or even if I am, I should not be treated as 100% reliable).

You should forget about the presence of the AAD, you don't need the additional distraction of the audible, and except for signals, you should ignore me and do your job as you were taught.

Oh, yeah, and have *fun*!

Peter

(>o|-<

If you don't believe me, ask me.

[jerm 0]

i like the compromise my home DZ uses -- The student helmets have audibles in them, set very low. So the students must remain as altitude aware as every throughout the normal course of the jump. If they hear that audible they're WAY low and should be pulling immediately. Ideally they never hear thte thing.

Using it purely as a backup.

Landing without injury is not necessarily evidence that you didn't fuck up... it just means you got away with it this time

[Jimbo 0]

Quote

NOTE: It seems like some people aren't reading the whole post here. The audible would be set to only go off BELOW my intended deployment altitude, as a last-resort reminder, say at 4000, as insurance against total brain-fade, not at 6000 as a replacement for altitude awareness.

I think people are reading the entire post here, you're just not getting it.

Don't go out of your way to ADD another complication to your AFF. You'll be off student status soon enough and can do whatever you like then. For now, listen to your jumpmasters, listen to the school. Now is not the time to be worrying about silly toys like audible altimeters.

-
Jim

"Like" - The modern day comma
Good bye, my friends. You are missed.

[SkymonkeyONE 3]

I like Peter's response because that truly IS our job as AFF instructors, yet at the same time I am totally for audibles. I agree that having one set down at the hard deck is a good idea. I wouldn't get into setting the device or anything, just train the student to perform an action should they hear that alarm.

I, for some time now, have advocated that a good three-tone audible is the very first purchase a fledgeling skydiver should make once he or she is committed to the sport.

Chuck

[riggerrob 558]

An audio altimeter is a good idea, but with three caveats.

Never allow any new gadget to distract you from you primary goal: pulling. Audio altimeters are good for this because they are basically set and forget.

Secondly, set your audio' for slightly below normal pull altitude. I used to play a game with myself called "beat the beeper." When I got really good at the game, my audio went off during line stretch.

Thirdly, fear causes deafness. So don't expect to hear your audio altimeter the first few times you jump with it.

[billvon 2,426]

It's a bad idea. Learn altitude awareness FIRST without an audible. Then learn to not even rely on that - once you're off student status make a bunch of jumps where you practice seeing what the ground looks like at 5000, 4000, 3000 feet. Once you have that set in your head, then you will have the background you need to start using an audible. If you don't do that, you may find yourself at 500 feet someday when your audible fails (hint - they don't make any noise when they fail.)

Your eyes should always be your primary altimeter; they are the most reliable AA equipment you have. Visual altimeters and audibles are good backups, but only once you have learned to use your eyes.

[Clownburner 0]

I fully intend to spend as much effort and concentration as I have on learning altitude awareness and pulling on my own, with the goal of being able to judge altitude without even using a standard altimeter.

I understand that an audible is _another_ distracting gadget, and I don't want to become dependant on it.

I guess I'm just not understanding what the harm would be of having one extra backup system, set so low it should never go off - say 1500 feet below (intended) deployment, or at the student hard deck of 2500 feet even. I'm a big fan of redundancy, and I just don't see how an audible set that low is any different than an AAD, really - it's just a last-minute reminder to insure a little bit extra against total brain fade.

I know the AFF/I is there to be my Audible and AAD; and the instructors at my drop zone have been very good about training me what to do, and how to stay aware. But s*** happens, and especially around AFF9, when they're not there with me, it just seems prudent to take all the precautions possible.

I defer to the superior experience and knowledge of the good divers here and my instructors, but I would like some help understanding what the harm is, so I can further my knowledge. I'm not trying to be hard headed, I just want to understand.

Thanks for all your opinions.

7CP#1 | BTR#2 | Payaso en fuego Rodriguez
"I want hot chicks in my boobies!"- McBeth

[Michele 1]

As far as I can tell, irrespective of your intent to use it, knowing it's there will create a sense of security which you need to develop by your own eyes, which are your FIRST and BEST alti gauge.

If you, even subconsciously, rely on a mechanical gadget without having a good and solid basis without it, you are that much more likely to need it rather than develop the first set of skills you will always have with you: your eyes.

It's also part of the jump to demonstrate your alti awareness. The JM's need to see you looking, and recognizing, where you are in the air...and this might be less apparent should you create a false reliance on a gadget.

Just curious. What will you do if you take one with you, and you hear it go off - and it's set at like 3500? Will you voluntarily sit yourself down? Will you voluntarily take that level over?

I think you are being hardheaded. You're not hearing what you want to hear; the responses have been great, and from some instructors. Why are you not taking thier experienced advice? Because it's not something you want to hear? LOL, I do understand that. But for right now, you really should learn how to fly, not play with gadgets.

No, I don't have one. No, I don't plan on getting one for a while. And yes, I don't have a lot of jumps. And yes, it's only my opinion.

Ciels-
Michele

~Do Angels keep the dreams we seek
While our hearts lie bleeding?~

[Clownburner 0]

Quote

As far as I can tell, irrespective of your intent to use it, knowing it's there will create a sense of security which you need to develop by your own eyes, which are your FIRST and BEST alti gauge.

If you, even subconsciously, rely on a mechanical gadget without having a good and solid basis without it, you are that much more likely to need it rather than develop the first set of skills you will always have with you: your eyes.

OK, I see what you're saying. But I don't think it will have that effect. I could be wrong; but AAD's don't have that effect, do they? Do you not worry about losing altitude awareness, because you 'know' your CYPRES will kick in to save your butt at 1200 feet? Or do you try your hardest to acquire, use, and keep altitude aware? I don't like to rely on my JM for this either, I need to do it myself, and they'd be telling me to pull long before the audible went off, if they could.

Quote

It's also part of the jump to demonstrate your alti awareness. The JM's need to see you looking, and recognizing, where you are in the air...and this might be less apparent should you create a false reliance on a gadget.

If your JM hasn't noticed you lost altitude awareness by the time you hit the hard deck, either s/he's 1) too far away to help, because you've thrown them, or 2) They ought to have their instructor credential pulled because they're not doing the job they're paid for. I'd be appalled at the second case, but the first is concievable. Either way, if you hit 2500ft and you're not under a canopy as an AFF student, you've 1) failed the level and 2) Your life is in imminent danger.

Quote

Just curious. What will you do if you take one with you, and you hear it go off - and it's set at like 3500? Will you voluntarily sit yourself down? Will you voluntarily take that level over?

Absolutely. I'm not here to impress anyone, or my instructors; my goal in AFF is to learn the skills that will enable me to partake in this sport without maiming or killing myself. If I hit 3500 without pulling and I was supposed to pull at 5k, I've completely screwed the pooch somehow, and it's no longer about passing the level - it's about saving my own life. I'd even happily retake a level the JM says I've passed, if I'm not comfortable with it - ultimately, I have to be comfortable with my skills and performance, not them. It's my life I'm responsible for.

Quote

I think you are being hardheaded. You're not hearing what you want to hear; the responses have been great, and from some instructors. Why are you not taking thier experienced advice? Because it's not something you want to hear? LOL, I do understand that. But for right now, you really should learn how to fly, not play with gadgets.

Actually, there are both opinions expressed here, although the majority seem to oppose the idea. But how am I being hardheaded? Did I say that I was going to use one, no matter what my instructors said? No, I was (and am) soliciting opinions here, that's all. I don't know what's best, and that's why I'm asking. I just want an explanation I can understand.

Quote

No, I don't have one. No, I don't plan on getting one for a while. And yes, I don't have a lot of jumps. And yes, it's only my opinion.

..And thank you for sharing it. That is of course, your choice. When it comes to dangerous sports, I like to control my risk, that's all. I wear a harness and helmet when I race my car, and I would do it even if the reg's didn't say I had to.

7CP#1 | BTR#2 | Payaso en fuego Rodriguez
"I want hot chicks in my boobies!"- McBeth

[freakydiver 0]

IMHO - forget the audible, learn to use your eyes. You really need to get used to what everything looks like at different altitudes - this is the BEST altimeter you can buy. Again IMHO - the safest skydivers I've been around in my short time in the sport don't even need an altimeter period. I'd much much rather be used to the look of two, three, four, whatever thousand feet than the sound of it in my ear.

-- (N.DG) "If all else fails – at least try and look under control." --

[skybytch 259]

Quote

But I don't think it will have that effect. I could be wrong; but AAD's don't have that effect, do they?

They have. Read the Cypres saves page (I don't have the link but I'm sure someone can post it).

Quote

I don't like to rely on my JM for this either, I need to do it myself

imho, if I'm "doing it myself" then I don't need a little black box to tell me when it's time.

Rely on your eyes. Use your JM's and visual altimeter to help you develop that skill. Once you know where 2k, 3k, 4k are just by looking around you - when you could make a jump without an altimeter and know that you'd be able to pull on time - that's when you may be ready for an audible.

Quote

my goal in AFF is to learn the skills that will enable me to partake in this sport without maiming or killing myself.

Skydiving is one of the few sports where you can have every possible "safety" device, do everything right, and still die. You make you safe. Not little boxes full of electronics.

[Kris 0]

Quote

OK, I see what you're saying. But I don't think it will have that effect. I could be wrong; but AAD's don't have that effect, do they?

An AAD is a completely different mindset where you are taught to set it and forget it, except in how it changes your emergency procedures. Most people are only reminded that they have an AAD when two things happen: When they turn it on and when it fires.

You are reminded that you have an audible on almost every jump. The key word there is almost. I myself use a ProTrack and it's the greatest device on the planet. But it has failed to do its job three times with no warning. Shit happens. When did I realize that fact? After I landed and I realized I hadn't heard it and that it didn't record my dive after looking at it. Why did it take me so long to realize it? Because I'm not used to hearing anything other than the breakoff tone while I'm already tracking away.

Quote

If your JM hasn't noticed you lost altitude awareness by the time you hit the hard deck, either s/he's 1) too far away to help, because you've thrown them, or 2) They ought to have their instructor credential pulled because they're not doing the job they're paid for. I'd be appalled at the second case, but the first is concievable. Either way, if you hit 2500ft and you're not under a canopy as an AFF student, you've 1) failed the level and 2) Your life is in imminent danger.

Some students are really great at looking at a wrist mount alti in freefall but, you know what? The numbers on the face just aren't registering with them. Your JM will let you know he has noticed your lack of cognizance by trying to move your hand to your deployment, failing that he'll dump you out himself.
As for the JM not being there, again, shit happens. Students do weird things, even ones that did perfect the day before. You need to understand that your JM is a backup. You are solely responsible for your skydive, not your JM.

Quote

Absolutely. I'm not here to impress anyone, or my instructors; my goal in AFF is to learn the skills that will enable me to partake in this sport without maiming or killing myself. If I hit 3500 without pulling and I was supposed to pull at 5k, I've completely screwed the pooch somehow, and it's no longer about passing the level - it's about saving my own life. I'd even happily retake a level the JM says I've passed, if I'm not comfortable with it - ultimately, I have to be comfortable with my skills and performance, not them. It's my life I'm responsible for.

My ProTrack is set 600 feet below my normal break-off and deployment altitudes. A few weeks ago I was so busy concentrating on getting the next freefly dock that I completely missed that we had just hit breakoff until I heard the tone. It's one of the very few times I have lost awareness and it makes me uneasy every time. My check, in order, is to use my eyes, then my wrist-mount. I failed to use either. So, what did I do? I called it a day, right then & there at 11am and got real introspective with myself. In that case, my ProTrack did it's job. However, my ProTrack's only job is to tell me when I have severely screwed up.

Anyone can lose alti-awareness, but it's an easier trap when you add more devices that can build dependance.

Quote

..And thank you for sharing it. That is of course, your choice. When it comes to dangerous sports, I like to control my risk, that's all. I wear a harness and helmet when I race my car, and I would do it even if the reg's didn't say I had to.

Skydiving is all about risk management. Like Lisa said, you can do everything right and still die, but it is up to you to make you as safe as possible.

You're asking some great questions and getting some good responses. Never stop learning or questioning. It's one of the things that will keep you safely active in this sport for a long while.

Best of luck on the rest of your AFF and welcome to the sky.

Kris
USPA IAD-Instructor '03

Sky, Muff Bro, Rodriguez Bro, and
Bastion of Purity and Innocence!™

[riggerrob 558]

KISS
Keep
It
Simple
Skydiver

Especially early in your skydiving career, concentrate on mastering the basics before you add extra gadgets.

Your best altimeter will always be the Mark I eyeball.
Your second altimeter is your sense of timing.
Your third altimeter is mounted on your wrist.
Your fourth altimeter is a silly little electronic box in your helmet that goes "ping!"
Your fifth altimeter is a silly electronic box in your reserve that goes "pop" when you mess up seriously.

It takes dozens or hundreds of jumps to master tha Mark I eyeball altimeter.
There is no point to messing with electronic boxes until after you have mastered the Mark I eyeball.

[AndyMan 7]

Quote

It takes dozens or hundreds of jumps to master tha Mark I eyeball altimeter.
There is no point to messing with electronic boxes until after you have mastered the Mark I eyeball.

So.... he shouldn't have a cypres...?

_Am

__

You put the fun in "funnel" - craichead.

[CrazyIvan 0]

I'm still a student and quite frankly I'm not planning in getting one, the reason is because I DON'T WANT TO DEVELOP DEPENDENCIES, and forget my AWARENESS, maybe in the future, when I'm doing RW or camera work I will, since there is a lot going on and a 'little help' would be appreciated.

My opinion.

__________________________________________
Blue Skies and May the Force be with you.

[hookitt 0]

Don't take this to seriously. These postings are starting to get silly. I wouldn't want to use them for my students. If some one proves other wise that it's a good Idea, then I'm open for that. Until that time, forget it.

Audibles are great. Get off student status, learn a few skills, have some fun. Personally I would buy the Audible in the fairly near future. Dependencies are one thing, common sense is another. Just keep learning and keep an open mind. There is nothing wrong with getting an audible once you're out on your own. Take some of the other advice and use it too. Learn what the ground looks like at different altitudes. You will at some point in your skydiving career look down and find the ground looking awfully close.

No matter what you do, you will eventually find yourself low. Every one does it at some point. They beat themselves up and call them selves stupid. Just accept that it happens and learn from it. This will happen with or with out an audible.

That about sums it up.

My grammar sometimes resembles that of magnetic refrigerator poetry... Ghetto

[CrazyIvan 0]

I was just expressing my opinion, I learn a lot here, and honest points of views are always welcome, like yours for example.

I'm planning in getting a ProTrack, but maybe after 100 jumps.

__________________________________________
Blue Skies and May the Force be with you.

[Michele 1]

Heya, James.

Thanks for the response. I was out of town for a day, so haven't had a chance to respond until now.

Quote

But I don't think it will have that effect. I could be wrong; but AAD's don't have that effect, do they? Do you not worry about losing altitude awareness, because you 'know' your CYPRES will kick in to save your butt at 1200 feet? Or do you try your hardest to acquire, use, and keep altitude aware?

My JM teased me a lot about the cypres when I had my cutaway. I totally forgot I had one. This is a good thing. I was so worried about the crappy canopy which was throwing me around the sky that I didn't look at my alti until I was under the reserve...

But the question really is, I think what are you going to do if the following occurs: your alti breaks, and your batteries go dead on the audible? If you don't know how high you are, you are at risk of pulling either high or low...it has taken me about 50 jumps to learn approximately (and it's very approximate, btw) where I am in the sky - without using my alti. And yes, I've jumped with an alti that was broken.

As far as the subconsious dependency, do you use a watch? When you get a new one, and the strap is a little larger, are you more aware of it than you are normally? I know I am...and I have some attention on it. I know it's there, whether I look at it or not. And yes, as much as this is a pretty dumb example, think about how "naked" you feel when you don't wear one. It's all subconscious. It's not like you can't find the time without your watch...but you feel like you're missing it, if you haven't got it on. O.K., it's a really dumb example. What I'm saying is that you might be aware that the audible is there - and right now, that's a distraction you may not want.

Quote

If your JM hasn't noticed you lost altitude awareness by the time you hit the hard deck, either s/he's 1) too far away to help, because you've thrown them, or 2) They ought to have their instructor credential pulled because they're not doing the job they're paid for.

And there's another one: he's right there, right next to you. You've just been released for the first time. You're flying around on your own. And your JM is about 20 feet away, trying everything he can do to reach you, but he cannot....you're falling too fast.... That happened to me. Had I gotten into trouble, he would not have been able to help me at all. And it wasn't his fault...and it wasn't my fault...it was just what happened.

Quote

Either way, if you hit 2500ft and you're not under a canopy as an AFF student, you've 1) failed the level and 2) Your life is in imminent danger.

I'd like to mention that if, on an aff level, you are not pulling at pull alti, or in the process of it, you've failed the level and your life is in imminent danger. Why? Because you've lost awareness. Because you're not doing what you should be doing. Because you've NOT PULLED on time. Hard deck is not about pull time...it's about making sure the canopy over your head is the one you're landing...

Quote

But how am I being hardheaded? Did I say that I was going to use one, no matter what my instructors said? No, I was (and am) soliciting opinions here, that's all. I don't know what's best, and that's why I'm asking. I just want an explanation I can understand.

If that comment bothered you, I do apologize. There are opinions on both sides of the fence, and you need to get the directive from your JMs. But I've recently had several experiences with other jumpers that set me on edge about this kind of thing...and people will ask questions until they get the info they want to hear. In most things, poor information won't put you at life or death risk. In this sport, the wrong info will. When someone repeats the question, I get the feeling that they're looking for support, not information. There is a difficulty with folks not wanting to hear what's said in this sport (me included, btw), and that's all I was addressing. If that was in error, again I apologize.

Quote

I wear a harness and helmet when I race my car, and I would do it even if the reg's didn't say I had to.

Good deal. Assess the additional risk of becoming either consciously dependent or subconsiously dependent, and then talk to your JMs. They're the ones to listen to, in this case.

I don't know about racing much, so can't make a good comparision. But did you start racing in a car with all the bells and whistles? Or did you start at the beginning, and learn how to drive the car really well? I am only suggesting that an audible is a bell and whistle thing, and that you may want to wait until you know how to fly before adding to the mix in any way. I don't see it as an added precaution. I see it far more as an unnecessary gadget, fun to have but not necessary...and the several hundred $$ it costs to acquire one may be better spent on learning the fundamentals.

Again, it's just my opinion...take it for what it's worth. And again, forgive me if I tweaked you - it wasn't intended that way.

Ciels-
Michele

~Do Angels keep the dreams we seek
While our hearts lie bleeding?~

[Liemberg 0]

Quote

It's a bad idea. Learn altitude awareness FIRST without an audible.

What is wrong with: "Hear it while unstowing your toggles and you may have passed the level - at least your timing for the pull was OK. Hear it while still in freefall - you failed the level but can still save the day when you ACT NOW"?

Device dependency? This device doesn't do anything else than give loud beeps at a preset altitude (and when you got a headcold, or the batteries fail, or -whatever- sometimes it doesn't even do that ...)

When all the DZ's jumpers wear a beeper and the whole staf wears a beeper - then why students cant have one? Calibrated well it cant distract them and when they are 'regaining heading etcetera' below their pull time it SHOULD distract them...

Any half way intelligent student grasps the concept of a back-up. (You explain RSL and Cypres don't you?) He gets reminded that the AAD must be set and forgotten. Now remind him that the audible should be forgotten also and not be heard in freefall. Explain freefall noise. Explain what presure difference can do to your hearing.

Just as the student starting this thread I fail to see the problem. At 500 ft the student you warned here is well under his reserve - for his cypres fired, unless he suffers a bad hair / broken altimeter / empty batteries day... "doomed from the start"...

As for 'altitude awareness': remember the Danish FS4 team at a world cup in Turkey? They had brand new dytters with a software flaw (since then reprogrammed). Four 'experts' were stopped by their cypres...

When a student doesn't have a certain device he cannot develop a bad habit with that device. But since he has so many other devices to develop bad habits with, this one is just another piece of equipment that should be explained with its "do's and don'ts"... From there on it is up to the student to develop (and MAINTAIN) good habits.

(Give him one while he is stil a student and chances are he will listen to you....

"Whoever in discussion adduces authority uses not intellect but memory." - Leonardo da Vinci
A thousand words...