Ron 7 #51 February 25, 2003 QuoteRon and Listo. Not packing correctly and being unable to locate a reserve handle are big errors, but not worth dying for. This dude did 1 thing right, and put a cypress in his rig, and is alive as a result of it. Did I say that these people *should* die???? Nope. I said they should be dead....But the focus should be on not fucking up...To many people use these as a saftey net and do things that they would not do with out it.....That is relying on the thing. Thats stupid as hell. And again....I like the damn things. My whole argument is the BS line people say when they want one, or tell people to get one..."I have one incase I am knocked out". I have shown, and anyone that has been around for anytime knows that MOST "saves" are people doing something stupid. QuoteWe all make mistakes. ALL OF US. Ask Tommy Piras, Rob Harris, Patrick De Gayardon. Think you're better than they were? Tommy...Knocked out. Damn that sucked. Shit happens. Rob Harris....Stunt...Screwed up and pull the handles in the wrong order. Patrick...Rigging error, low pull. He screwed up. 2 out of the 3 you quoted show what I am saying. Most "saves", hell ALL accidents, are caused by someone making a mistake. Focus on saving your own life, have this cool toy incase you fuck up....But NEVER RELY ON THE DAMN THING TO SAVE YOU!!!! And don't do things with one, that you would not do with out one. Ron"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Tonto 1 #52 February 25, 2003 "Tommy...Knocked out. Damn that sucked. Shit happens." But he had a Cypress - just had not bothered to turn it on.... tIt's the year of the Pig. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mikeat10500 9 #53 February 25, 2003 Tonto I'm quoting Ron because I would like to add something." please keep in mind, I think of myself as a very safe skydiver even though I do not wear an aad." >Tommy...Knocked out. Damn that sucked. Shit happens. If Tom was only knocked out than YES an aad could have cut the loop and started reserve deployment seq." thats all they can do!" This does not ensure a safe landing." think of a square reserve...I know it's crazy but some people have them." A freefall collision can do a lot more than knock you out! >Rob Harris....Stunt...Screwed up and pull the handles in the wrong order. If Rob pulled the handles in the wrong order than an aad would be useless. "I never did know what happened there." >Patrick...Rigging error, low pull. He screwed up. I understand Patrick sewed a line on his main to his rig(horse shoe), how could an aad have helped?----------------------------------- Mike Wheadon B-3715,HEMP#1 Higher Expectations for Modern Parachutists. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
amir1967 0 #54 February 26, 2003 It is only my 0.02 ct but I think the idea is if those guy´s screwed up every one in this sport can and at one point will . and AAD will help in some cases and give you that second chanceAM67 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mikeat10500 9 #55 February 27, 2003 I agree If I was envolved in tandem,aff,or stunts I would most likely choose to use an aad. If I jumped a hot canopy I'd have a rsl too.But for the type of jumping I'm doing...I don't req the 1st and don't want the second. I know I can screw up, but sooner or later everybody dances with the reaper. QuoteIt is only my 0.02 ct but I think the idea is if those guy´s screwed up every one in this sport can and at one point will . and AAD will help in some cases and give you that second chance----------------------------------- Mike Wheadon B-3715,HEMP#1 Higher Expectations for Modern Parachutists. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tspillers 0 #56 February 27, 2003 Most people make the "if I get knocked out" arguement, but basically a cypres if for it you fuck up. Face we are human and therefore likely to screw up from time to time. I (knock on wood) have always managed the correct action in those life saving incidents and hope I always will. I also prefer to have that cypres just in case (notice I said prefer, not need). I am not totally useless, I can be used as a bad example. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mikkey 0 #57 February 27, 2003 Whatever makes our sport more save should be used. Who cares why and what - I see no point debating why a Cypres fired - as long as it saved a live. The real point is to minimize the fatality and injury rate - for the sake of all skydivers and the reputation of the sport. And reputation is important if you want to avoid problems with regulations by government bodies, insurance problems etc. etc. Anything that can make the sport safer should be made mandatory by our own organizations. For example: In some countries the local parachute federation demand a certain number of jumps before you can use a high performance canopy (e.g. 400) - because there have been too many injuries and fatalities in landings. These organizations rather self-regulate to protect novices from themselves and to stop governments introducing even worse restrictions. (Now I duck - see the flames coming) --------------------------------------------------------- When people look like ants - pull. When ants look like people - pray. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 7 #58 February 27, 2003 QuoteWhatever makes our sport more save should be used. Agreed....But I don't think it should be mandated by any body. It is a personal choice. QuoteWho cares why and what - I see no point debating why a Cypres fired - as long as it saved a live. Well...If a CYPRES fired...It is beacuse someone screwed up. Can you at least admit that? We look at WHY they fired to learn how not to screw up."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tspillers 0 #59 February 27, 2003 Ok, I am going to rant a little. So anything the make the sport safer?????? So we make mandatory: Cypres RSL Skyhook Floatation Gear Canopy testing prior to selling gear We ban: swooping and hook turns crw head down group tracking maybe the whole sport I know I am jumping off the edge, but skydiving is about personal choices. As a dzo I don't want to ban any of these things, in fact I enjoy all of them. I also don't want to make any of those items mandatory for a licensed jumper on their own gear. I think everyone should use a cypres. At the same time, I don't aggree with the poeple who won't jump while their cypres is sent off for a 4 year. I feel that is placing too much faith in a mechanical device. I also agree that we should try to learn from other peoples mistakes and any cypres fire was because of a mistake somewhere. I haven't seen the dive plan that calls for someone to get knocked out Todd I am not totally useless, I can be used as a bad example. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,406 #60 February 27, 2003 >I see no point debating why a Cypres fired - as long as it saved a live. If you drive home drunk, and you get in an accident, and your airbag fires and saves your life, should that be the end of the story? No debate? I would think you might want to look at your drinking habits to avoid another accident in the future, one where your airbag might not save you. Same thing with a cypres. If you have a fire because someone in the next group came slamming into you out of control and knocked you out, you could argue that there's nothing to discuss. 99% of the time, that's not the case - people just plain forget to pull in time. In that case there is a great deal to discuss, including the jumper's continued participation in the sport. "Hey, I'm alive, leave me alone" is not an adequate answer. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skymedic 0 #61 February 27, 2003 QuoteIf you drive home drunk, and you get in an accident, and your airbag fires and saves your life, should that be the end of the story? No debate? I would think you might want to look at your drinking habits to avoid another accident in the future, one where your airbag might not save you. exactly!!!!!!! Marc otherwise known as Mr.Fallinwoman.... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mikkey 0 #62 February 28, 2003 As expected I upset a couple of people with my comments. Just to clarify: 1) I agree that we have to analyse every incident and learn from it. What I was referring to was the discussion in this thread about a big difference if you were knocked out or not when a Cypres fires. In any case something went wrong. But of course we have to learn and understand what happened. 2) I do promote self-regulation of the skydiving community. I know that in the US there is a slightly different culture to many other countries. Many think as mentioned above " everybody should use a Cypres - but it is a personal choice" - "no-one with 50 jumps should jump a Stiletto at 1.6 loading - but it is a personal choice". This is a very Amercian approach and I respect it. However, I do worry that unsafe practises and many casualties affect the sport negatively and lead to problems with insurance cost and government intervention. Whilst this might not be a problem in the US - it certainly is in other countries where governments love to regulate. In Germany for example you need a license to be allowed to play Golf . So my point was that the sport should regulate itself in a reasonable way. Both to protect other jumpers from "idiots" and because it might stop stupid regulations to be introduced by authorities. We have made it obligatory to have a reserve canopy, so why not make it the rule to use a Cypres (with certain exceptions where it is appropriate). We all (I assume) agree that a 10 year old should not drive cars and that this should be enforced by law, so why is it OK in principle that a 50 jump person "drives" a heavily loaded high performance wing - if he or she so chooses? This is a complex issue and there will be differing views. It is the personal freedom versus "good of the community" issue and people will agree to disagree. Stay save. --------------------------------------------------------- When people look like ants - pull. When ants look like people - pray. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nacmacfeegle 0 #63 February 28, 2003 "In Germany for example you need a license to be allowed to play Golf " Hell, thats nothing, in the UK you need a license to own a TV! I shit yeah not sir. -------------------- He who receives an idea from me, receives instruction himself without lessening mine; as he who lights his taper at mine, receives light without darkening me. Thomas Jefferson Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ernokaikkonen 0 #64 February 28, 2003 > in the UK you need a license to own a TV! I shit yeah not sir. Same here... It's a national sport among students and other "rebels" not to pay the license-fee... and then not answer the doorbell in the fear it might be the tv-license inspector! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BMFin 0 #65 February 28, 2003 Quote > in the UK you need a license to own a TV! I shit yeah not sir. Same here... It's a national sport among students and other "rebels" not to pay the license-fee... and then not answer the doorbell in the fear it might be the tv-license inspector! Nope .. Not me !! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
flyer299 0 #66 February 28, 2003 The way I look at it is: There are a million different reason why I want to have an AAD. There is one reason why I shouldn't (the cost of one). Once the Cypress is installed and turned on, I should never do a jump thinking the Cypress Will Save me. I need to do the jump with everything in place so I can execute my emergency procedures and solve any problems on my own. If for some reason my cypress still fires then I have gotten a second chance at life. That is worth the $900 to me! Hell they could double the price and it would be worth it! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mikeat10500 9 #67 February 28, 2003 > That is worth the $900 to me! Hell they could double the price and it would be worth it! Up here in Canada they do double the price! But your right...AAD's are a good idea. but thats a lotta beer money. Hell...when I win the loto, the first I'm gonna do is put my reserve on 4 risers!----------------------------------- Mike Wheadon B-3715,HEMP#1 Higher Expectations for Modern Parachutists. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
