Minimizing my risk of a low turn

[Jessica 0]

Check the fatalities forum. It can, and does, happen to anyone. No one is immune. No one has "the presence of mind" (actual line I saw) to not turn low to the ground. Therefore, I'm going to assume that it's a very real danger for me, Jessica Lynn, that I must take steps to mitigate.

So please help me investigate:

How do I, personally, minimize the risk of my making a low turn?

Part of it, I guess, is practicing the billvon method™ of learning to control my canopy, so I'm less likely to panic-turn low to the ground.

Bill sez: With the canopy you have, can you:

-start the flare, drag your toes, then turn 45 degrees in either direction?
-turn 90 degrees at 50-100 feet and still land safely?
-land with rear risers only?
-land consistently on a 10 meter target?
-front riser, rear riser and toggle swoop?
-land uphill and downhill?

And another part of it, I guess, is staying within a moderate wingloading I feel confident I can handle under emergency conditions, and being sure that it's not my ego telling me that I can handle it.

Another part of it could be staying current, and striving to be as comfortable under canopy as I am behind the wheel of a car. I am equipped to avoid sudden obstacles on the road safely; I need to be similarly equipped in the sky.

Oh, and awareness of the others on the load is a big one. If you know where everyone is when it's time to land, you're less likely to be surprised and jab a toggle to avoid someone (and less likely to get in someone's way and make him hurt himself).

What else, guys?

Skydiving is for cool people only

[SanDiegoRW 0]

I would say the big things are-

Be aware of your capabilities
Be aware of your surroundings
Be prepared for anything

Somewhat broad but it covers most of the bases.
Having good depth perception and knowing how much altitude your canopy eats up in turns is always a good thing too. Use your head.

-Kenny

[mikkey 0]

I don't do hook turns as I am planning to die in my bed . What I do, is to set up my landing pattern very early:

1) Check position of all canopies early
2) Check over ground speed against wind, down wind and side ways.
3) Have a plan on how I am going to approach the landing area.
4) Stay aware and look, look in case I have to change plan.
This does help me get in cleanly with no need to do wild turns low.
I have however practiced flat turns 45-90 degrees so I can avoid people if need be and do a cross wind landing.
After advise from an experienced person I will also start to practice low hook turns - in case I need it one day. The approach of learning how to do it, is to do only a 45 degree turn 200 feet higher then needed and then lower it altitude gradually. When this is mastered increase angle to 90 and slowly up to 180 degrees.

But as a general plan, I do try to avoid low turns by using my eyes, plan ahead and be prepared to react quickly..

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When people look like ants - pull. When ants look like people - pray.

[b1jercat 0]

Confession is good for the sole, When I was still jumping a student canopy I made a low turn for some boneheaded reason, and survived. And of course an instructor was standing there watching,so the minute I shed my gear I was taken to the back room . They than proceeded to ream me with in inches of my life. I've saw the same thing happen to a coach who made a sloppy landing,
and worse yet he got ragged on for weeks afterwards by everybody. At my DZ canopy shenagan's just aren't tolerated and someone is always watching.
I received some additional coaching on low turns. The key is having the mind set to go to brakes and stay under your canopy. On my canopy even in half brakes I still have enough flair left to land/PLF if I have to. Also realize that if your in brakes low letting the canopy go to full forward drive will make it dive or pick up speed. I jump at a busy turban DZ with a lot of canopys in the air at the same time, I don't think twice about changing my pattern or landing out to avoid other people or put someone in the position of making a low turn to avoid me.
I know this doesn't really answer your question, but it's what I do. good luck blue skies

[billvon 2,435]

Another one is think about the hard choices. Sometimes it's better to go into a tree than to try to turn at 50 feet if you're not confident of your ability to flat turn. I'm convinced that doing that saved me from injury a few years back. Sometimes it's better to land downwind, or in the marsh, or into the snowfence, than try to turn. It's easy to fixate on that place you've landed 100 times, but often the safest landing area when things go awry is wherever your canopy happens to be pointing.

[fudd 0]

Reading about all the people hurting and killing themself with low turns and getting warned a million times at the dropzone, I'm now so scared that i rather land in trees, hit fences, hangars or something else bad.
With my wingloading I know I most probably will walk away with a couple of bruises from the above, but even with a moderate wingload one can kill oneself with a low turn.

If I were flying a VX 89...well...maybe I ain't ready for that yet

There are only 10 types of people in the world. Those who understand binary, and those who don't.

[Ron 7]

Pick an out early...Don't get what pilots call "Get homeitis"

That is to say if you are not sure you can make it back to the DZ, but there is a big ass field right below you....Don't risk it...Take the big ass field.

Ron

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[andy2 0]

[QUOTE]Another one is think about the hard choices. Sometimes it's better to go into a tree than to try to turn at 50 feet if you're not confident of your ability to flat turn. I'm convinced that doing that saved me from injury a few years back. Sometimes it's better to land downwind, or in the marsh, or into the snowfence, than try to turn.[/QUOTE]

ah, thanks. The more I keep reading about people doing low turns to avoid obstacles and pound themselves into the ground breaking their femur the more I can't understand someone's obsession with not landing out in a tree or a creek, etc. What so bad about hitting a tree? You're wearing a helmet, slap your hands over your jugulars and prepare to hug the tree

---------------------------------------------
let my inspiration flow,
in token rhyme suggesting rhythm...

[Nutz 0]

I have been having a problem with this myself. How does something like this happen? This was a very experienced skydiver (over 1500 jumps) with a lightly loaded canopy (1/1). He landed off but that shouldn't be a big deal. I guess you said it, it can happen to anyone. It makes me rethink my statement last week, maybe it should be that skydiving has the potential to be very dangerous. (14000 feet + your exit weight = alot of stored energy) You dissipate most of the energy in freefall and then your parachute, hopefully, dissipates the rest. But you can make it to within a hundred feet of the ground and still have enough potential left to kill yourself.

So what was it? Overconfidence? Complacency? Fate? I guess that you must remain vigilant. You can't think that it won't happen to you. Practice emergency procedures, always have a backup plan. Don't panic in an emergency. (Thats alot easier to say than to do.) Practice braked turns.

I guess for me, I just want to rationalize something like this. If I can learn something from it then it wasn't a waste. It is still a waste because it didn't have to happen.

Lets be careful out there! Skydiving is as dangerous as you make it. (How bout that one?)

CCC

[kallend 1,651]

Quote

Skydiving is as dangerous as you make it. (How bout that one?)

CCC

I think it's as dangerous as you make it, and then a bit more.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[amir1967 0]

Quote

Pick an out early...Don't get what pilots call "Get homeitis"

That is to say if you are not sure you can make it back to the DZ, but there is a big ass field right below you....Don't risk it...Take the big ass field.

Ron

I had one time that we took off and there was an holding (too much traffic so the jump master decide that we should go to a different landing area ,now the was no way in hell that the grong crew can get there before we exit so landing direction was south-west or so was at least in the first drop-zone ,so peolpe land with the sun in your face .
after a good 2 man rw I open just to that I can try to find the precise field but just decided to go for the first one that seems safe, after landing about 500m from the drop-zone field I had to listen to some lecture why was I in so harry to land in the first field I saw and didn´t make it back, yes the right I probably could make it back if I see it in time,but from my point of view I´v landed safe did not cuse any problem to any-one and definitly shouldn´t be lecture about it
So my lesson always say yes (or you don´t get to jump) and keep it safe for everyone

AM67

[bmcd308 0]

One thing I am surprised others have not said is to plan ahead - there are people who say they are going to try to land in the peas before the load goes up but have no plan where they want to be at 300, no idea of where they'll be to get there at 600, and no idea which side of the dropzone to be on at 1000. They tend to circle over the peas until they get uncomfortable, then fly out from the center of the safe landing area toward the obstacles and hope for the best.

One of the frequent offenders at our dropzone left some very impressive divots in the mud this weekend (foot, foot, knee, knee, hand, faceshield - we can't figure out where the other hand was) after making two low turns. She was OK this time, but if she does not start thinking ahead, her luck may change.

BMcD...

Edited to Add: Actually, Mikkey basically said this already.

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www.jumpelvis.com

[racer42 0]

All of the above and know when it's time to stay on the ground. Don't jump if you are too tired, hungry,dehydrated, excited etc. Set some personal limits and stick to them. This ain't easy, but it beats the very possible and ugly alternatives.

Oh yeah, it was a year ago today I crashed

Much better now

Play Hard...be careful

L.A.S.T. #24
Co-Founder Biscuit Brothers Freefly Team
Electric Toaster #3
Co-Founder Team Non Sequitor
Co-Founder Team Happy Sock

[RichM 0]

Quote

Bill sez: With the canopy you have, can you:

-start the flare, drag your toes, then turn 45 degrees in either direction?
-turn 90 degrees at 50-100 feet and still land safely?
-land with rear risers only?
-land consistently on a 10 meter target?
-front riser, rear riser and toggle swoop?
-land uphill and downhill?

Quote

Bills stuff is great, but personally I also include landing off the wind line so you know what to expect and can deal with it rather than slap in a low turn to try to make it into wind. Do some at 45 degrees off the wind line until you can land consistenly well with it - make sure everyone else on the laod know what you are doing so they don't follow you. Then do some 90's.

Personally I also do 135's and full downwind landings as part of my canopy familiarisation, but then I love to swoop

Rich M

[robskydiv 0]

Hello Jessica. In response to minimizing risk, situational awareness is a big key. You may want to purchase the video "Fly Like A Pro." Just a thought. Harry

[sarge 0]

Quote

All of the above and know when it's time to stay on the ground. Don't jump if you are too tired, hungry,dehydrated, excited etc. Set some personal limits and stick to them. This ain't easy, but it beats the very possible and ugly alternatives
***

I Like : H. A. L. T.

H.ung-over
A.mbtious
L.ong
T.iny

Setting personal limits is paramount !

Being realistic about personal limits is the foundation to establishlishing a survivable learning curve.

I 'can' plan for every forseeable tragedy... but, planning takes time...

If I have the time why not use it wisely and make a plan...

If I am short on time, then God help me with what I have (besides him) above me to use the most of my time and experience to save my ass....

.

--
I'm done with the personally meaningful and philosophical sigs!!

• Quote

[skr 1]

>After advise from an experienced person
>I will also start to practice low hook turns

Wait!! Don't do that!!

People are talking about low flat turns,
also known as braked turns, not hook turns.

http://indra.net/~bdaniels/ftw/c_wings_level.html
has a discussion about toggle technique and
large scale strategy - thinking ahead, watching
other canopies.

Skr

[mikkey 0]

I have practised Flat turns - and I meant (and the experienced advice meant) hook turns (low but not too low). Reason being that I could get into a "tight" landing area situation and a quick hook turn might be the best option. If I do not practise and have not tried the feeling and "visual" experience of a hook turn landing, I might be in real trouble if the situation arises. Note that I was talking of a careful and safe training program. General rule still applies for me that I do not do hook turns, but I want to be able to manage a situation where I have to do one.

---------------------------------------------------------
When people look like ants - pull. When ants look like people - pray.

[skr 1]

>What so bad about hitting a tree?
>
>You're wearing a helmet, slap your hands over
>your jugulars and prepare to hug the tree

:-) :-)

Trees aren't the big fluffy marshmellows they look
like when you're up above them. Trees are better
than power lines, and low hooks, and most buildings,
and maybe probably water, but thinking ahead and
making decisions up high is better.

I've got 8 tree landings, one of them at night.

Basically once you hit the tree you lose all control
and tumble ass over tea kettle until you come to some
kind of a stop.

Each kind of tree is different. Sometimes your chute
hangs up and you have the hassle of getting down
and getting your chute down. Remember to carry a
whistle so people can find you and help out.

Sometimes you hit the tree, your chute collapses and
you fall out. The trunk and limbs are hard and sometimes
have sharp pointy things to run into.

Trees are good for jump stories, but learning flat, braked
turns and thinking ahead up high are good too.

Skr

[grega 0]

we just had a "tree incident" with one of the students this weekend. And believe me, it's not as easy to "survive" a tree landing as it sounds. she was hung 30 feet above hard ground between two trees. Trees could barely hold her.
Imediately after we found her, we started making her a soft ground with branches and leaves. as soon as we made her about 3 feet high "pillow" out of branches, the wind blew and shaked the trees. she fell from 30 feet straight to the ground
If we hadn't made her that "pillow" of branches, it's a question if she'd be alive, but she would be badly injured for sure!

"George just lucky i guess!"

[Casch 0]

Quote

we just had a "tree incident" with one of the students this weekend. And believe me, it's not as easy to "survive" a tree landing as it sounds. she was hung 30 feet above hard ground between two trees. Trees could barely hold her.
Imediately after we found her, we started making her a soft ground with branches and leaves. as soon as we made her about 3 feet high "pillow" out of branches, the wind blew and shaked the trees. she fell from 30 feet straight to the ground
If we hadn't made her that "pillow" of branches, it's a question if she'd be alive, but she would be badly injured for sure!

Holy shit! That is some seriously quick and smart thinking on your part. Wow...you're my hero!

[Tonto 1]

I do do hook turns and also plan to die in my bed!

Planning ahead is the key. Sometimes, after my AFF student pulls at 5000ft, I pull right away. I lurk about on brakes until everyone else is down, and I land alone. I don't spiral, as this is disorienting and WILL affect you judgement.

From opening to landing should be one fluid thought. Its all there. Watch it, plan it, wait for it, do it.

t

It's the year of the Pig.

[billvon 2,435]

>we just had a "tree incident" with one of the students this weekend.
> And believe me, it's not as easy to "survive" a tree landing as it
> sounds. she was hung 30 feet above hard ground between two
> trees. Trees could barely hold her.

One lesson that can be learned from this - if you're going into a tree, aim for the middle! It's rare that people get hurt going into trees; most tree landing injuries come from falling _out_ of the tree. The center of a tree is a lot stronger than the edges. And the far edges are the worst - just strong enough to collapse your canopy but not strong enough to hold you up.

[freakydiver 0]

Wow no doubt - 30 feet is quite a long fall, way more than enough altitude to really do some damage.

-- (N.DG) "If all else fails – at least try and look under control." --

[Jessica 0]

Bill, wouldn't smacking into a tree trunk in full flight -- downwind, even -- hurt you pretty bad? We had a fatality at my old home DZ where a first jump student hit the hanger, and managed to strike a support beam.

Skydiving is for cool people only