Why was I trained AFF on a ripcord?

[Skylark 0]

When I learned AFF I used what I was told was 'student gear', with a rip-cord. After passing AFF, I then had to graduate to a BOC throw-out.

My question is, why is rip-cord gear known as 'student gear' and why are students not AFF trained on BOC throw out gear straightaway?

Looking back at my AFF video, on several jumps my rip-cord pulls took much longer to deploy due to the burble. Surely BOC throw outs in this case deploy faster and are thus 'safer'?

"Into the dangerous world I leapt..." William Blake, Songs of Experience

[skytash 0]

I am not an instructor, so I may not be completely right about this.

I asked my instructors the same question when doing the 'conversion' jumps. I was told that the spring-loaded pilot chute used with ripcords is less likely to get caught in the burble, reducing the potential malfunction types when students are learning the other parts of skydiving safely. He said that ideally everyone should keep using ripcords for this reason, but packing a BOC is easier, which is why people convert to BOC.

I think there are some places which use BOC deployment for students.

tash

Don't ever save anything for a special occasion. Being alive is a special occasion. Avril Sloe

[SkydiveMonkey 0]

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I was told that the spring-loaded pilot chute used with ripcords is less likely to get caught in the burble

What? . the spring loaded pc is starting off in your burble at the start, whereas a boc pc is thrown sideways into clean air. One of my friends did her AFF on BOC from the start and had no problems with it.

____________________
Say no to subliminal messages

[skymick 0]

BOC isnt necessarily safer..especially for a student. BOC has less chance of being caught in the 'dead' air but for this to happen it must be aggresively thrown into the air. Who knows what a student (especially a first time jumper) might do with a BOC? Firstly because it is on the bottom of the container they might have trouble finding it, the student may freak out and only pull the PC out without letting go or not throw it out properly and have it wrap around their hand or arm. With a ripcord all a student has to do is pull that rip cord and doesnt have to worry about anything else apart from that.

So while a BOC may be a better system thats only if its done correctly. Id rather see a student fuck up when deploying with a ripcord rather then BOC cause a lot less can go wrong.

(hope that made sense. i need mre sleep )

[oldnewbie 0]

I started my AFF (January 2002) with a ripcord, and did 6 jumps with that. I went back one year later (january 2003 to finish the lessons, same school etc), and they had converted over to BOC. Since i didn't have a clue how to use that, i asked questions (like, what the hell is this). Anyways, they told me that they had made the decision to go BOC because "thats what the students will be using". As far as the burble, I probably had 4 of my first 6 had the burble. I have never had that problem since going BOC.

[Hooknswoop 19]

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So while a BOC may be a better system thats only if its done correctly. Id rather see a student fuck up when deploying with a ripcord rather then BOC cause a lot less can go wrong.

I have taught AFF using both ripcords and BOC's. BOC is better. No burble to worry about, except I have seen two PC's thrown into the burble. No more problems, actually less problems with the student finding the handle than ripcord. No de-arching at pull time as the student trys to 'see' the handle. How many transition jump horror stories have you heard?, "I pulled the handle nothing happened so I dropped it and pulled my reserve, and both my main and reserve deployed."

The one student I have had hang onto the PC (for about 3 seconds) had learned at a different DZ that used ripcords. All the transition traiining in the world didn't change his initial training of not to throw the handle.

BOC or Ripcord must be 'done correctly'. I don't think it make a difference make a mistake with a BOC or ripcord. I have never had a student wrap the PC around their arm. With a BOC all they have to do is throw the handle, which, from what I've seen, most people do on their AFF level one with ripcords anyway.

Hook

[riggerrob 558]

Hee! Hee!
Because the British Parachute Association is run by grumpy old farts. Hee! Hee!
Seriously, Canadian schools started converting to throw-out pilotchutes back in 1979. Over the years we have seen other countries convert to throw-out/BOC, but it has always been done with lots of kicking and screaming. It is always the older instructors who do the most kicking and screaming. Most amusing.
For example Perris Valley Skydiving School in California had main ripcords and two AADs on all their student rigs for years and stubbornly resisted any change. Then - n the winter of 2001 - Perris discarded their main AADs and converted to BOC all in one week. I sewed a bunch overtime that week.

In the end, students made the decision by throwing away a few million ripcords.
Don't worry, the British Parachute Association will eventually come around to traiing students the Canadian way, just not in your lifetime.
Hee! Hee!

[jerm 0]

even when we used ripcords the students were taught to throw them from the git-go.. the rationale being that we'd rather teach them correctly from the beginning..

Landing without injury is not necessarily evidence that you didn't fuck up... it just means you got away with it this time

[mikeat10500 9]

Rip cord activated, spring loaded pilot chutes may
have some advantages( we still use them for reserves) but training students on gear that is different than what they will be using in the future is
just foolish. It is cheaper and safer to train on the
same gear that they will use for the rest of their
skydiving career. ( that goes for SOS systems too!)
P.S.
And even static line...
...mike

-----------------------------------
Mike Wheadon B-3715,HEMP#1
Higher Expectations for Modern Parachutists.

[kallend 1,623]

I learned with a BOC from jump 1, didn't have any problems.

Funny thing is that when I took the BIC (which I guess is now obsolete) one of the questions on the test assumed that all students trained with a ripcord, and if you gave the answer that made sense for a student trained on a BOC, the answer was marked wrong.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[billvon 2,400]

>I have taught AFF using both ripcords and BOC's. BOC is better.

Well:

1. Ripcords can be BOC as well. We had such a system for years; it worked well.

2. When comparing BOC ripcord to BOC throwout, BOC ripcord is safer for level-1 students; ask Shark about his experiences with unstable students who throw their pilot chutes in a random direction. Assuming you make it through the first 7 jumps, throwout becomes safer because there's one less transition.

3. If a school is willing to pay for it, having a ripcord BOC and training students to throw the ripcord is probably the safest overall.

[Luv2Fall 0]

I was trained on BOC from the beginning - works for me.

[CornishChris 5]

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. Ripcords can be BOC as well. We had such a system for years; it worked well.

I did AFF with a BOC mounted ripcord then transitioned to 'throw out'. No problems for me but the one my bro had with it was his determination to throw away his rip cord resulting in large beer purchases.

CJP

Gods don't kill people. People with Gods kill people

[Hooknswoop 19]

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1. Ripcords can be BOC as well. We had such a system for years; it worked well.

But you still encounter the problem of not throwing the handle, unless like you mention in #3, you have them trow the ripcord. And you have the problem of the PC having to get through the burble, which causes a lot of hesitations.

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2. When comparing BOC ripcord to BOC throwout, BOC ripcord is safer for level-1 students; ask Shark about his experiences with unstable students who throw their pilot chutes in a random direction. Assuming you make it through the first 7 jumps, throwout becomes safer because there's one less transition.

An unstable student pulling a ripcord is going to fire off the PC in a random direction also. I don't think there is a difference for un-stable students. I haven't had very many unstable students pull (maybe 2 or 3), either ripcord or throw-out.

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3. If a school is willing to pay for it, having a ripcord BOC and training students to throw the ripcord is probably the safest overall.

Same thing, I think if they are throwing a BOC ripcord or throwing a BOC throw-out PC it is the same, except it costs the DZ money in ripcords.

Seems like most schools using ripcords either don't want to spend the money to change their rigs or simply are resistant to change. I have 500+ AFF jumps using BOC throw-out without a single problem that a spring loaded PC would have fixed. The only one was caused by being trained on BOC ripcord, and he let go of the PC after 2-3 seconds. I would like to hear the opinion of an Instructor at Skydive Chicago, I think they have been using BOC throw-outs the longest.

Hook

[Shark 0]

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2. When comparing BOC ripcord to BOC throwout, BOC ripcord is safer for level-1 students; ask Shark about his experiences with unstable students who throw their pilot chutes in a random direction. Assuming you make it through the first 7 jumps, throwout becomes safer because there's one less transition.

Oooh, you are bringing back bad memories!

[billvon 2,400]

>An unstable student pulling a ripcord is going to fire off the PC in a
>random direction also.

Yep, but a) if they hold onto the ripcord in panic it doesn't affect deployment and b) no matter what the orientation, the PC spring will get the PC at least 18-24" away from their bodies.

> I haven't had very many unstable students pull (maybe 2 or 3), either
> ripcord or throw-out.

I've seen a few really bad onse. A recent one at Elsinore was an example of how a throwout can cause problems (non-release of PC and momentary horseshoe both with bridle and lines.) I've had 3-4 unstable students with spring-loaded PC's, including one in a fast flat spin perfectly back-to-earth with no JM's nearby. No problems there other than a step-through from flipping through the risers during deployment. I don't think it's a really big issue, but I think the ripcord has a slight safety advantage during unstable deployments (which, I think, is one reason they're used in reserves.)

[fudd 0]

With a BOC throwout, how can the secondary jumpmaster deploy for the student if the student fails to do so.
A BOC ripcord can be set up with a ripcord on each side.

There are only 10 types of people in the world. Those who understand binary, and those who don't.

[SkydiveMonkey 0]

There's a a cutaway system on the boc pocket

____________________
Say no to subliminal messages

[dragon2 0]

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There's a a cutaway system on the boc pocket

I noticed that on one of our student rigs yesterday. We´ve only recently converted to throw-away for AFF only, SL progression still uses ripcords. Anyway I took a closer look at an AFF rig and it had a cutaway system sorta like on a birdman suit, for the BOC pouch. Neat.

ciel bleu,
Saskia

[kingbunky 3]

our dz used pullouts for iad (with the pilot chute in a left hand pocket on the side of the container) and pff (with the pilot chute on the belly band). this year they are converting all student gear to boc for a couple of reasons already mentioned... there would be no transition period for students getting their own gear (which would likely have boc depolyment) and a boc encourages a good arch, as opposed to a belly band throwout..

"Hang on a sec, the young'uns are throwin' beer cans at a golf cart."
MB4252 TDS699
killing threads since 2001

[rigging65 0]

I think the simple answer is that a remote activation device (ie- one that you can pull and hold onto without effecting the deployment) was a good idea for students...as they might freeze up after pulling.

When we converted over to Student BOC's we were concerned about students not throwing the PC away...but if they've never known a different way to do it, they don't seem to have much trouble with it. Besides, as has been stated, a hand deploy PC is what they'll be using in the future anyway!

"...and once you had tasted flight, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward.
For there you have been, and there you long to return..."

[nightjumps 1]

There's positives and negatives to both. The student pull cord was the primary "package" from most of the manufactureres until not too long ago. More than likely, when it comes time for new student gear, most DZ's will transition to the student BOC.

[MontyPyhton 0]

In my opinion there is only one reason for ripcords: The student has passed AFF and falls unstable on the back.

When I made my AFF course I hated the ripcord systems:

When I pulled the ripcord sometimes I had a few seconds to wait before i felt the opening shock.
Sometimes 2-3 seconds sometimes only 1...
I saw often student videos and often I saw pilot chutes which had problems to get into the airstream.
You pull and you don't know what the PC does on your back.
You can show on your back but in this case you may become unstable (horseshoe???).
What happens if the HEAVY spring loades PC is on your back and you have no time to clear this situation and must shot your reserve in this PC?

In this time of my career i felt often unsafe.
After switch to the hand deploy system the fun side of the sport comes back.

An other reason why I hated the ripcords was the ordeal of packing.

[Hooknswoop 19]

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With a BOC throwout, how can the secondary jumpmaster deploy for the student if the student fails to do so.
A BOC ripcord can be set up with a ripcord on each side.

I can reach across and get the PC from the reserve side, or pull the reserve side main pull. It is a handle w/ a length of yellow cutaway cable that hold the top of the BOC closed. The handle is velcrod on both sides and when removed opens the reserve side of the BOC. The BOC flops open and the PC takes off. I've pulled a reserve side main pull a few times, worked great every time.

Hook

[dsbbreck 0]

When I went through AFF in 99, I started on ripcords and then half way through the DZ changed to BOC throw out. I found that confusing.

Our DZ has been training on BOC for over 4 years and to my knowledge they have had no significant problems. Train them correctly the first time how they will skydive the rest of their life.

And I agree with Mikeat10500, it's time to get rid of SOS systems also. We all revert to our original training when we are in a panic situation. I had a friend go in I believe because he was trained on a SOS system. Pulled his cutaway and then went right back into an arch without pulling his reserve.

David

"Socrates wasn't killed because he had the answer.......he was killed because he asked the question."