Please be careful when jumping with Tandem's

[AggieDave 6]

Exactly right. I didn't quite word what I was trying to say last night correctly. Being very tired does that some time.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[billvon 2,400]

> what does the gear manufacturers approval have anything to do
>with the flying skills of the 'observer'??

What does a non-jumping DZO's approval have to do with the flying skills of the observer? Nothing. But as he will be sued out of existence if anything goes wrong, he has a say in what a jumper can or cannot do at his DZ. A manufacturer, on the other hand, knows quite a bit more about how their gear works than the non-jumping DZO. He knows how it will react to being hit by an errant RWer. He knows how fast the tandem can fall before the drouge comes out. He's tested it a lot. And, if something goes wrong, he too will be sued out of existence - so he has as much of a stake in making sure tandem RW goes well as the DZO.

In addition, his operating instructions are legally required to operate the rig (primarily for packing and repair, but also for operation) and thus what they contain matters from a legal standpoint.

[tombuch 0]

For a compilation of all tandem fatalities please see http://relativeworkshop.com/. From the main page click on the "Tandem" link on the top panel, then click on "General Tandem Information" then "Tandem Fatalities."

There have been a few tandem fatalities that have been caused or aggravated by third party skydivers, so manufacturers and instructors have reason the be concerned about the skill level of the people flying with us.

Tom Buchanan
Instructor (AFF, SL, IAD, Tandem)
Author JUMP! Skydiving Made Fun and Easy

Tom Buchanan
Instructor Emeritus
Comm Pilot MSEL,G
Author: JUMP! Skydiving Made Fun and Easy

[Deuce 1]

Very nice post, Ray.

I'd really like to see that video sometime, if it exists.

JP

[Zenister 0]

i understand what your saying particularly in our lovely legal enviroment, but thats sort of like suing boeing when a cessna crashes into your 707..

would you call boeing for approval to have a cessna fly in formation with it??

____________________________________
Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed.

[AggieDave 6]

Well, not really.


TM's are still certified through the manufacture to become rated on that type of gear, and they're rated through the USPA for insctructional purposes.

So it makes perfect sense that the manufacture would give you guidelines in which to abide by for safety concerns.

Those guidelines have come about through trial and error. Those errors are tandem fatalities. Go check them out sometime, basically most of them could have easily been prevented.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[billvon 2,400]

>would you call boeing for approval to have a cessna fly in formation with it??


I would certainly take Boeing's advice over flying in formation with Boeing aircraft over that of a non-pilot passenger sitting in 37B. They do have quite a bit of knowledge of how their airplanes fly (in this case, if they can fly slowly enough to stay with the cessna) and their pilots have quite a bit of experience in flying in formation. And if they say it cannot safely be done, that the 707 cannot fly that slowly without stalling? I wouldn't try it. They're the experts.

[skydiveacapulco 0]

not offten i replie to a post but in for a penny.

as a tandem master my only responcibility is for my passenger, it,s my job to s.e.l the sport.
safety.
enjoyment
learning

i try to work with the same cammera man all the time we become a team we understand each other.

if i do have an observer or sombody who wants to follow the tandem first i have to understand he wants to and is going to pay for that so i cant kill his enthusiasm, then i have (as the tandem master, the one taking the biggest risk) to decide if i want him near me if he is skilled enough if i can control the just that little bit more passenger and on that day wether i want to. (heck some times you just want to do the jump with no frills)

if i have even the slightest dought then no way, but how to deal with the guy, we have a couple of tricks
you can always ghost the guy (just tell the cam guy first )of the plane a few seconds before you go. even if he floats up he will be nowere near the drouge on deployment and comming up is a lot safer than going to a sit and comming down.

option two ask the guy to follow out 5 seconds later still nowere near you on drouge (i dont like this for the obviouse reason)
opption 3 just say no hurt feeling hurt for a day
broken necks last a liftime.

appologise afterwords and buy him a beer but at least he had the chance, disshonest but the point is safety first stay alive to jump again.
tandems are a great way of introducing people to the sport god nows we need more! but they have to be done saftly or not at all.




flame me beet me hurt me spank me i like it

blue sky sand and sun.

[diablopilot 2]

Quote

you can always ghost the guy (just tell the cam guy first )of the plane a few seconds before you go. even if he floats up he will be nowere near the drouge on deployment and comming up is a lot safer than going to a sit and comming down.

I love this one, and have used it before, because everyone walks away happy. And if the don't, well they'll get over it. Or not.

At the end of the day, I'm happy if everyone involved goes home safe.

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You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[Malfunction 0]

let me prefice by saying that I have the following opinion at a boogie or at my home DZ.

I have to say, I have chased numerous tandems. I do not have a tandem rating, AFF rating nor am I a videot. At my DZ, and at other small-time DZ's I have jumped at, tandems are the majority of business. I probably have as much experience chasing tandems as some of our videots (less now since my jumps have decreased annually). But for someone to say no to me if I brought the business and knowing my jump experience and having the logbook to back it up seems kind of prejudice.
If it is a boogie that you are TM at (like couch freaks, labor day, Iowa), or at my DZ, I feel that I should be allowed to accompany my guest (unless boogie rules prohibit it). If it is your DZ and I am new there, fine, I agree with your rules.

But to say that it is all the time, every time, if you don't know someone, they aren't going, seems kind of judgmental, don't you think?

Note: no personal attacks meant, just put yourself in the chasers' shoes.

I may disagree with what you have to say, but I shall defend to the death your right to say it.
- Voltaire

[kflying 0]

You're absolutely right - it is judgemental! And it's the TI's judgement that counts. Please remember that tandems can be unpredictable - and so can lurkers. If the TI isn't comfortable with a lurker, please remember that it's usualy due to the TI wanting to make the tandem jump as safe as possible.

Some TIs have hard and fast rules about lurkers, others don't. Me, I consider each situation at that time.

Quote

let me prefice by saying that I have the following opinion at a boogie or at my home DZ.

I have to say, I have chased numerous tandems. I do not have a tandem rating, AFF rating nor am I a videot. At my DZ, and at other small-time DZ's I have jumped at, tandems are the majority of business. I probably have as much experience chasing tandems as some of our videots (less now since my jumps have decreased annually). But for someone to say no to me if I brought the business and knowing my jump experience and having the logbook to back it up seems kind of prejudice.
If it is a boogie that you are TM at (like couch freaks, labor day, Iowa), or at my DZ, I feel that I should be allowed to accompany my guest (unless boogie rules prohibit it). If it is your DZ and I am new there, fine, I agree with your rules.

But to say that it is all the time, every time, if you don't know someone, they aren't going, seems kind of judgmental, don't you think?

Note: no personal attacks meant, just put yourself in the chasers' shoes.

A male pilot is a confused soul who talks about women when he's flying, and about flying when he's with a woman.

[diablopilot 2]

Quote

But to say that it is all the time, every time, if you don't know someone, they aren't going, seems kind of judgmental, don't you think?

Note: no personal attacks meant, just put yourself in the chasers' shoes.

None taken, now put yourself in my shoes.

1) I am responsible for my saftey and that of my student.

2) I value my life, and that of my student.

3) As a TI on a jump I can't move out of the way. I have very little control other than direction I face. Tracking is near impossible.

4) I also can't see around me as easily, I can't look between my legs or do a barrel roll to see above me.

5) I've seen peolpe who thought they could stay with a tandem float 50-100 feet higher. And they were good experienced skydivers just not prepared for the jump. Above is the WORST place to be on a tandem lurk. Behind is the second worst.


These are some of my reasons, and I do not feel they are harsh. I will continue to land safely if I follow my rules. I see no reason to change them. If someone really has the overwhelming desire to jump with me on a tandem, come do a two way(or bigger) before hand. Gives me an opportunity to check you out.

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You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[skydiveacapulco 0]

I have to say, I have chased numerous tandems.

it,s good to chase tandems and we are not saying dont we are saying the greatest risk and therefore the greatest respocibliity is with the tandemmaster.
so therefore he must be the one to make the desision.

I do not have a tandem rating, AFF rating nor am I a videot. At my DZ, and at other small-time DZ's I have jumped at, tandems are the majority of business. I probably have as much experience chasing tandems

it,s not a question of experience, i have about 2000 tandems and somwere in the region of 3000 video jumps, if a tandem master told me not to chase him ok i would not, there could be a lot of reasons for it,
the student is nervous, the students shape and size make them a difficult tandem to do, the tandemmaster just wants to keep it simple, many reasons,
But for someone to say no to me if I brought the business and knowing my jump experience and having the logbook to back it up seems kind of prejudice.

it is prejudicial but the bottom line is safety first.
if you like tandems why not work towards the rating?
i dont mean to sound harsh or rude but once you understand the risk factors involved perhaps we can change your mind?.
If it is a boogie that you are TM at (like couch freaks, labor day, Iowa), or at my DZ, I feel that I should be allowed to accompany my guest

i dont understand the diffrences in location?
a tandem is the same were ever you go the risk is the same.

fine, I agree with your rules.
the desision is usualy there for safety we allready suffer enough from injury in the sport why increase the pottential for more things to go wrong?.

But to say that it is all the time, every time, if you don't know someone, they aren't going, seems kind of judgmental, don't you think?

even if i know sombody i have been known to ask them to stay back, give me my space to do my job.
it takes just 1 seconds inatention to realy do some damage.
in fact i think i have never had one complaint about that, they respect my safety and are usualy very helpfull.



Note: no personal attacks meant, just put yourself in the chasers' shoes.

[Hooknswoop 19]

Look at it from the TI's perspective. What do they have to gain and what do they have to lose? Nothing and everything. Tandems are sitting ducks and allowing someone to lurk is bestowing a great amount of trust upon the lurker by the TI.

I have had people lurk, right in front of the passenger, and the passenger never knew they were even there. Video guys sometimes have to work to get the passenger's attention.

I would never fault a TI for saying "No" to a lurker. They have enough to worry about without an unkown flyer coming at them.

Again, not to be harsh, but if you brought the tandem and want to jump with them, you take them.

Derek

[usskydiver 0]

Great post Ray! My rules are as such (and follow a compilation of stuff I've read over the years). If I know your skills, you may jump with me after I've briefed you. If I don't know your skills, you may exit before me (I'll determine the separation).

What happens to a tandem student happens to me 1/10 of a second later, and I love me! <--that's what I tell nervous tandem students.

Tim
Maggot

Tim

[HRHSkyPrincess 0]

Excellent point! The DZO is the one who has to carry the legal liability, regardless of the multi-page waivers!! And if the DZO should say yes, but the TM says no, then it's no. No arguements. Safety issues are dictatorial, not democratic. :)

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Attitude is everything!

[skydiveacapulco 0]

re the last 3 posts great points totaly agrea, as a dzo, camera man tandemmaster and toilet cleaner,

the finnal decision is must and should allways lie with the tandemmaster.

not to be harsh, i think my life and body parts are safer if i can control the situation and am aware of who is with me, that goes for tandem and video, you have to jump safe, to make this a sport. not a demolition darby.

if sombody i dont know wants to follow my tandem ask listen learn, get the rating.

it would be sad if we had to go back to only tandemmasters allowed to chase becouse of one incident.

tandems have risks reduce them and they are fun and safe.




beat me spank me flame me hit me i like it.

blue sky sand and sun.

[JayhawkJumper 0]

I hear a lot of people say that its a bad thing to dock on the tandem instructor. I've seen a lot of photos with people docked on them, quite a few at SDC over summerfest. So whats up with that?

[slotperfect 7]

Quote

I hear a lot of people say that its a bad thing to dock on the tandem instructor.

Relative Workshop teaches it this way. Personally, I like the RW jumper(s) docked on the student for the following reasons:

-I am flying the passenger AND myself, so having someone docked on me limits my ability to do that
-I signal the break-off by waving, which is harder when RW jumpers are docked on me.
-If Joe RW jumper wants to come dock on his buddy who is my tandem student, they get in the video/pics much better with him docked on the student and not me

My $0.02

Arrive Safely

John

[skydiveacapulco 0]

my meager brain thought.

i never let anybody dock on me, i need my hands to fly (i am only small ) so i need to fly.
rw ers fly down to 25 me i dump at 55 oops they might get in to the dive and forget

hands and arms free means i can wave off and dump.


beet me spank me hit me flame me i like it.

blue sky sand and sun.

[JeffGordon 0]

I am a new tandem instructor (80 jumps) and a couple of weekends ago, we had a guy with 80 jumps who brought in 4 first time jumpers. He wanted to go with each of them. I talked to the videographer and we agreed he could jump with us but to keep him from above me he would leave on "set". So the count on exit was "Ready, Set,......... Arch"
No Problem.