Please be careful when jumping with Tandem's

[Rdutch 0]

The initial responsability belongs to the tandem master on if you can jump with them and be responsible, but you have a lot of responsability to be as careful as possible also, and to know what you can and cant do when jumping with a tandem. Tandem masters should assess and decide if you are ready to fly with a tandem. It is very dangerous and flying with tandems is a lot different than a normal skydive. If you do plan on jumping with a tandem, especially for the first time, ask the tandem master what to expect, and also what not to do.
Never take a grip on the tandem master, if it is ok with the instructor sometimes he wil allow you to take a grip on the student, but be aware, at pull time you need to be well away. Also stay far way from the Drouge and NEVER! fly over or under the tandem. The tandem has a very limited range of movement and it is hard for them to avoid you.
At deployment give them plenty of space, stay far away, or even best trak away at wave off. When a tandem deploys they have a trap door where they fall faster suddenly and then slow down fast when the tandem inflates.
Also plan your exit with the tandem master, and if there is Video ask him what he wants you to do also, the first priority is the Tandem, next is video, so you need to stay well out of everyones way, let the tandem master and the videographer know what you plan to do on the dive. The rules as far as jumping with a tandem used to be, you had to be a tandem master to do it, this has kinda been changed due to the desire for video, and the lack of Videographers with tandem rating's.

This post was brought on by an incedent today where a tandem instructor was hit by someone in freefall, No one was hurt but from the video you can see how easily it could have been Bad. The tandem was a fast one, and the flyer was having a hard time staying down with them, he went into a sit and went out of control and almost nailed them the first time, (very close call) you can see the instructor was upset. Later in the dive the flyer repeated trying to sit, and had a fast forward movement about 10 feet above the tandem he then possibly hit burble, or possibly just had a fast downward fall rate, and struck the instructor. Too many possibilities of what could have happened so I wont go into detail, but drouge entanglement, an unconcious instructor, injuries from the impact ect name a few.

Conclusion: It is very exciting to join someone on their first skydive, but Tandems are a difft monster than an ordinary skydive. You need to be extra careful, and also your flying skills need to be good enough as well as your comon sence. Ask a lot of questions and plan the dive well. Tandems when they exit fall extremely fast until the drogue is released, and then they slow down drastically, stay far away until the drogue is clear, and the tandem is under control. Move in slowly and be careful. NEVER grab the tandem instructor, and make sure you give them plenty of space on deployment. Also be careful when docking on th passenger, sometimes they dont want to let go.

It is very exciting to see someone do their first skydive, I love to see the smiles on their faces and share their experience, it brings back good memories of my first time. Be careful. You have responsability to be careful for yourself, as well as the Passenger and instructor.

Have fun out there but be careful.

Ray
Small and fast what every girl dreams of!

[Canuck 0]

Great post!

As a tandem videographer, unless I'm very confident of the flying skills of the person chasing - I hate it!!! On the back of my mind from exit to deployment is "where are they, how fast are they coming, and are they going to get the f*** out of my way at deployment time."

I'll add one other thing. As far as chasing a tandem that is also having video, that I feel needs to be ok'd by not only the tm, but also the passenger - they are the ones paying for it, they should get to decide whether some stranger is in geeking the camera on their video.

Canuck

[mikkey 0]

Very strict rules here in OZ in regard to who can jump with a tandem. I think you need a minimum of 200 RW jumps in the last 12 month as well as CI approval to be allowed to do it.

---------------------------------------------------------
When people look like ants - pull. When ants look like people - pray.

[andy2 0]

why 200 current RW jumps? I dont get it.

---------------------------------------------
let my inspiration flow,
in token rhyme suggesting rhythm...

[wmw999 2,136]

It's an indication of the seriousness and unpredictability of tandems. You need to both be able to stay with them, and have the experience and judgement to keep away even if you could stay with them.

Since there are generally 4 lives involved, it's not just the follower's decision.

Wendy W.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[NeedToJump 0]

Quote

Also be careful when docking on th passenger, sometimes they dont want to let go.

I have jumped with and docked on a couple of tandems and before the jump we tell the student not to grab on to me, I'll grab onto them. I talk to the tandem master and the video person (if there is one) and ask them what they want me to do/not to do and all have gone quite well. It's great seeing your friends jump out for the first time

Wind Tunnel and Skydiving Coach http://www.ariperelman.com

[Zenister 0]

Quote

why 200 current RW jumps? I dont get it.

why RW jumps?? seems rather prejudice against FFers

alright, yes i know the majority of tandem speeds (after drogue throw) are at belly speeds, but i've jumped with 3 tandems so far and been in a sit for most of the dive.

currency is very important no question.

____________________________________
Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed.

[D22369 0]

Where I do video work, both the tandem master and the vidiot (me) have to agree that someone has the skill and common sense to jump with us or they dont go..... If I was TOLD that someone that I thought wasnt up to it was gonna jump with the tandem then I would walk away, they can get video from someone else......... I broke my personal rule once and I was hit very hard by the low time jumper that was going to lurk 25 feet out and watch his moms tandem, he got a bit carried away..... never again

Roy

They say I suffer from insanity.... But I actually enjoy it.

[diablopilot 2]

That's why as a TM, and a Videot I saw who jumps with me, no one else can make that decision. And if I don't know you, you don't go. No mater what the experience level. It's irresponsible of the TM to make a life threatening choice for the passenger like that.

It's that serious.

And if you don't believe it, go look at all the tandem fatality reports.

They make you read and study them to get you rating. There are fatalites that have occured due to idiots jumping w/ tandems.

----------------------------------------------
You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[AggieDave 6]

Lets just say if that was me on that jump as the TM, me and that jumper would have had a very very long talk after that jump!


Its probably just because I'm a pretty new TM (I only have about 50 tandem jumps so far), but I have to personally know you and personally trust your flying skills to let you anywhere near me on a tandem jump...

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[billvon 2,417]

>Why RW jumps?? seems rather prejudice against FFers . . .

Because RW, by definition, means you're flying relative to someone at belly (i.e. tandem) speeds. Freeflyers often fly fairly relative to each other, but sometimes they don't - and being able to fly headdown within 20 feet of someone else isn't a sufficient skill set to be able to fly with a tandem.

I would suggest a change and use an AFF rating as a prerequisite for jumping with a tandem. since AFF training is exactly what you need (ability to stay with anyone, ability to avoid the area above and below the student)

[freakous 0]

Quote

>I would suggest a change and use an AFF rating as a prerequisite for jumping with a tandem. since AFF training is exactly what you need (ability to stay with anyone, ability to avoid the area above and below the student)

But, with this logic than all the Vidiots would also have to hold an AFF rating. At a time when we are trying to promote skydiving, and let's face it tandem videos are the best marketing tool. Additionally, there are just not enough AFF instructors that do video to make this possible. We might as well go back to jumping rounds so nobody can do hook turns. Just my thoughts.

[riggerrob 558]

Quote

Quote

why 200 current RW jumps? I dont get it.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Makes perfect sense to me.
Currency is an important safety issue when chasing tandems.
Back in the early days - circa 1986 - I was uncomfortable with allowing people to chase me while I was doing tandems.
The problem was that most of the people who asked were un-current or simply lacked the skills to dock gracefully on an 8-way.
I was mighty happy when Relative Workshop announced that anyone chasing a tandem needed a minimum of an AFF or tandem rating and a minimum of 1,000 jumps. That is just a bureaucratic way of screening out the people you do not want to be bothered with.
As for videographers needing 1,000 jumps and an AFF rating ... in a perfect world they would. However, given the current shortage of videographers, we settle for lower standards. No one cares if a videographer has the full set of AFF Instructor skills, provided he consistently gives the tandem instructor enough room to do his job safely.
Oh, and the last videographer who kicked a tandem instructor at Pitt Meadows got demoted to fourth string for a year!

Local policy - at Pitt Meadows - is NO, unless you get permission from the owner or the senior tandem instructor. As the senior tandem instructor, I have said no so many times that people quit asking.
Hint, the last person I allowed to chase me was a retired PFF instructor who was in the 300-way world record formation.
I try not to be elitist, I just don't want to be bothered with "high risk, low return activities) like allowing anyone to chase tandems.

• Quote

[crutch 0]

***

if you need to ask this, don't bother asking to jump with a tandem, please!

blue skies,

art

[Zenister 0]

Quote

>Why RW jumps?? seems rather prejudice against FFers . . .

Because RW, by definition, means you're flying relative to someone at belly (i.e. tandem) speeds. Freeflyers often fly fairly relative to each other, but sometimes they don't - and being able to fly headdown within 20 feet of someone else isn't a sufficient skill set to be able to fly with a tandem.

I would suggest a change and use an AFF rating as a prerequisite for jumping with a tandem. since AFF training is exactly what you need (ability to stay with anyone, ability to avoid the area above and below the student)

i understand this, but honestly believe it should be left up to the TM, the video (if present) and the passenger. Just as with wingloadings having recommendations in place give the TM and easy 'out' but do we really need a regulation that says 'NO -unless' if everyone in the dive is comfortable with it?

____________________________________
Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed.

[billvon 2,417]

>But, with this logic than all the Vidiots would also have to hold an AFF
>rating.

Ideally, yes. But most DZ's have a progression that allows new videographers to 'train' to jump with tandems by first having them do 4-way video, then getting a briefing by the head video guy etc. With this sort of training it's definitely possible to jump with a tandem with fewer jumps. Very few non-video types go through such training.

>At a time when we are trying to promote skydiving, and let's face it
>tandem videos are the best marketing tool.

I have no desire to promote skydiving to people who don't care much about it. DZO's have always wanted to promote that which makes them money. TM's and videographers want to jump more and make more money. Newer jumpers want everyone to jump. Now's really no different than any other time.

[billvon 2,417]

>i understand this, but honestly believe it should be left up to the TM,
>the video (if present) and the passenger.

Actually, I think the approval of the DZO and the gear manufacturer are a lot more important than the approval of the passenger, who simply cannot realistically assess the risks. Asking the passenger if it's OK is like asking an airline passenger if they mind flying with one of the ADF receivers inoperative.

[Zenister 0]

what does the gear manufacturers approval have anything to do with the flying skills of the 'observer'??

the passengers life could be directly affected, without their approval it should be a no-go no matter who else thinks its safe.

DZO i fully agree with (they are taking an added legal risk) but i would hope they trust their TMs enough to leave that decision up to them.

____________________________________
Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed.

[riggerrob 558]

This brings us back to the original question of who can make the best "informed decision.
Don't waste your time asking the student as he/she does not have a clue about the risks involved.
Asking a skydiver with less than 1,000 jumps is worse than a waste of time as all you will hear is EGO!
Don't ask a junior tandem instructor as he/she is still coming from ego and has not seen enough scary things to make an informed decision.
As a young tandem instructor (in the mid-1980s) I allowed people to talk me into a few "high risk - low return" jumps simply because I could not think of an excuse not to. Now that manufacturers have written lengthy lists of excuses ...
Which brings us to the point that manufacturers are the most informed and therefore the best people to make informed decisions.
In conclusion, I believe that most of the time when skydivers ask to chase tandems, it is done for the glorification of their own egos and has little to do with the student's enjoyment.

[NeedToJump 0]

Quote

In conclusion, I believe that most of the time when skydivers ask to chase tandems, it is done for the glorification of their own egos and has little to do with the student's enjoyment.

I enjoy jumping with tandems because I love this sport and enjoy seeing other people get to experience it for the first time. I have only jumped with friends of mine who I have brought out for their first jump and get permission of the TM and videographer (obviously) and the student as well. If you think that this is about the glorification of my ego, fine. I think it's about sharing one of the most meaningful things in my life with my friends.

Wind Tunnel and Skydiving Coach http://www.ariperelman.com

[Zenister 0]

i agree.

I have a friend who has done 3 tandems so far.. I (and two others on the last one) chased her out on all but the 1st. She has said many many times how much more fun the dives with us out there were than her first. Visuals are an important part of skydiving, perhaps for the 'once in a lifetime' tandem it make little difference, but having another person as a frame of reference (and to watch us FF around her) gave her a much more complete view of what skydiving is for those who continue beyond the 'amusement ride' and was a strong influence in her decision to start AFF..

its not about ego, its about enjoyment and experiences you'll never have otherwise.

if everyone involved (TM, video, passenger and DZO/ST&A) has no objections to the additional risks what does the manufactures opinion matter? (or anyone who is not in the jump) is their equipment not safe to have another jumper in close proximity?? obviously pulling handles or interfering with the drogue are very bad things..

____________________________________
Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed.

[slotperfect 7]

This came up for me today. One of our regular visitors from about two hours away brought his best friend to make a tandem. He has 80 jumps and asked if he could swoop it. I told him I would rather he didn;t swoop it, but offered to let him exit right in front of us so he could still see the exit (four or five seconds later). He proceeded quite tactfully to show me in his logbook where he had done it before. I chose to stick with my suggestion. It went great, his buddy had a great time, and everyone was safely within their experience level limits.

Arrive Safely

John

[sducoach 0]

Quote

is their equipment not safe to have another jumper in close proximity?? obviously pulling handles or interfering with the drogue are very bad things..

I believe you just answered your own question.
Most of the arguments I see are from jumpers who simply do not know the requirements of the tandem, the maneuverability of the tandem, or what most manufacturers with some consideration/concern for thier TI's and pax's require/suggest/ask the USPA to enforce.

If you want to fly with tandems, go get your tandem rating and see if your perspective changes.............

Blues,

J.E.

James 4:8

[AggieDave 6]

Not to mention getting sucked in the LARGE burble that the trap door creates, which could injury all the parties involved if you're not away when that happens.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[sducoach 0]

Aggie,
The burble is there all the time. The problem at drogue release is the sudden change in fall rate. Most people cannot react that fast to avoid a collision. At wave off when I'm doing video I go up and back to get a full opening shot and more importantly to clear the airspace for the tandem.

Blues,

J.E.

James 4:8