Discussing "issues" with fellow jumpers

[diverdriver 5]

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or... is it a bad move to get in any way involved?

Thoughts?

I would listen for a second to make sure of what you are about to interject yourself into. Say this jumper being yelled at was someone that had been talked to several times before. Maybe this jumper had a rep for not listening to these "private chats" and doing something a little more grand might be the thing that wakes her up to finally pay attention to what is going on around her. Maybe "tough love" is what is needed to get them to think. Or maybe the other jumpers are tired of this jumper's antics and are really venting their emotion about their other behaviours on the ground around the DZ. Just a thought.

Chris Schindler
www.diverdriver.com
ATP/D-19012
FB #4125

[riddler 0]

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Say this jumper being yelled at was someone that had been talked to several times before. Maybe this jumper had a rep for not listening to these "private chats" and doing something a little more grand might be the thing that wakes her up to finally pay attention to what is going on around her. Maybe "tough love" is what is needed to get them to think.

In this situation, I would say the S&TA should get involved - not another jumper. I would take it more seriously if the S&TA or DZO talked to me about a recurring problem. If another jumper yelled at me, I would just think he/she is an asshole.

Trapped on the surface of a sphere. XKCD

[Michele 1]

Hi, Sunny...

I have had a situation similar - on both sides of the fence....

The time when I was wrong, I was chatted at by John LeBlanc...we had lots of listeners, but I also listened...and learned a ton. He took the time to talk to me gently and quietly, and used it as a teaching moment, for which I am grateful. Now, had he yelled at me, I still would have learned, but would've had a harder time addressing my own errors, and likely would have been defensive.

The other time I was the cut-off-ee, I was cut off on final. Once I had landed, she yelled at me, and loudly, in the landing area. We both caught a ride together, and she continued yelling. I gently put my hand on her shoulder, and told her "let's talk about it in a bit. Meet me at the picnic tables after we've packed?" and she agreed...long story short, I went and sat under a tree away from others, had a cigarette and some gatorade, calmed down, talked to an instructor about it, and about an hour later I approached her and we talked. It turned out she didn't understand some of the dz's landing patterns (she was not a regular) and I made sure she did understand them - but not by yelling, by finding the gap in the education and filling it.

I know me, I know my temper, and if anyone starts yelling at me, I shut down. If I don't shut down, I will yell right back...so I've found the best way to address it is take a few moments (or longer) between confronting the issue and when the issue occurred, and then take a position of education rather than blame...

One of the things I've learned in life in general is that people do their best most of the time. If it isn't good enough, it's not because they're asshats, but because they didn't know. So it's about finding a better way, rather than laying blame. And if one approaches things from a "help" position rather than a "fault" position, the learning is accomplished...otherwise, it's just about defending.

just my .02...

Ciels-
Michele

~Do Angels keep the dreams we seek
While our hearts lie bleeding?~

[sunshine 2]

I admit that i have indeed been the offender before. And when i do fuck up, i realize it, apologize, and learn from it. In last weekends case I wasn't the offender and there was no reason to get anyone else involved. I"m not really interested in talking about the incident itself, i guess i just wanna make people think about how they would handle a situation. If some people have read this thread and know to approach someone in a calm manner, then my work here is done.

___________________________________________
meow

I get a Mike hug! I get a Mike hug!

[Michele 1]

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In last weekends case I wasn't the offender and there was no reason to get anyone else involved

I didn't mean to imply you were, SunnyOne...just relating my experience (small as it is) and my perspective on how to handle things.

When I sought some advice from an instructor, it was because I was unsure of myself, and wanted him to talk to her. He told me I could handle it myself, wanted me to handle it myself so that I could learn about how to do it, and let me know he'd be around should it degenerate into an argument...but his presence wasn't needed.

And yes, I think you've stimulated thought as how to handle the situation when (not IF) it occurs to someone else, and that is a good thing!

Ciels-
Michele

~Do Angels keep the dreams we seek
While our hearts lie bleeding?~

[wmw999 2,157]

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it's about finding a better way, rather than laying blame.

That sounds wonderful -- what great way to handle what could have been an unpleasant experience.

By the way, folks -- if you talk about someone's safety behavior to other people, please make sure you talk to them about it too, or have someone do so. Some folks really are that clueless.

Wendy W.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[bbarnhouse 0]

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if you talk about someone's safety behavior to other people, please make sure you talk to them about it too, or have someone do so. Some folks really are that clueless.

How true, but also remember that YOU are responsible for your own safety. There are some folks that just do not get it and have the proverbial dear in the head lights look. Every DZ has at least one that they know of or have heard stories about. Unfortunately, sometimes gentle private talks do not work. We all have to take responsibility for the education of younger jumpers. It makes it safer for them, and safer for us. The life you save, may just be your own.
*side note* Bryan Burke when not traveling makes his home in Eloy and serves as one of the safety and hazard advisors.

[webracer 0]

nice post billvon,
right on the mark!

Troy

I am now free to exercise my downward mobility.

[steve1 5]

I have a hard time dealing with people who holler. I don't care who was at fault, they don't have a right to throw a tissy fit in front of other folks. I can't handle this scenario (if I'm the one being yelled at) and I'll holler right back. I might get my mellon thumped, but that's how riled up I get right back at whoever wants to shout at me. I don't care who it is. It makes a lot more sense, to me, to calm down and then talk things out rationally. I think others should intervene, calm folks down, and when the time is right (when people have calmed down) talk things out. It sounds to me, that in Sunshine's case, the other guy was way out of line. Just my 2cents worth......Steve1

[vonSanta 0]

Hm, I wonder how a newbie can make a point to an experienced skydiver?

For example, on ym last skydive I was sitting there, waiting to dive outta the C-182. Another freeflier had just exited and I wasn't happy with the separation after 5-6 seconds, so I waited.

Felt a boot push on my arse and rather than being pushed out and tumble, I let go, keeping an eye out for the freeflier below me.
I knew who was behind me so when I'd landed I walked over and talked to him.

Me: hey man, why'd ya do that?"
Him: you were taking too much time, didn't want to land out. Get out earlier next time"
Me: Wasn't happy with the separation.
Hm: It was more than enough.
Me: No, don't think so.
Him: "I got 8 years experience, you telling me you know more than me?

At this point two other more experienced skydivers chimed in with similar sentiments, so I just let it go, after saying 'you could always do another flyby'. The worst bit is that I got out of that conversation with a black eye and there'll probably be talk about 'that new guy who thinks he knows everything' or somesuch (or maybe I am just paranoid).

What to do? Only got 36 jumps, so I have very little authority in the eyes of other more experienced jumpers.

Santa Von GrossenArsch
I only come in one flavour
ohwaitthatcanbemisunderst

[Remster 24]

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What to do? Only got 36 jumps, so I have very little authority in the eyes of other more experienced jumpers.

Point them in the direction of John's website and even show it to them, saying taht through talking with other experienced folks, your understanding was different. Ask them to look at the info and discuss it with you. Dont make it a I'm right, you're wrong thing, coz if they have egos (lmao) it wont sit well with them. Dont come in like an all-knowing 36 jump wonder (you dont sound like it from here), but do raise a discussion with them and be humble about it (you catch more bees with honey).

If all they have seen/jumped at mostlt is Cesna operations, then seperation hasnt been has critical as bigger operations.

Remster

[Ron 7]

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I wasn't happy with the separation after 5-6 seconds, so I waited.

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At this point two other more experienced skydivers chimed in with similar sentiments

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What to do? Only got 36 jumps, so I have very little authority in the eyes of other more experienced
jumpers.

Is it possible that it was enough seperation?

You have 3 guys saying it was and you saying it was not.

You have to know which battles are able to be won.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[kallend 1,654]

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What to do? Only got 36 jumps, so I have very little authority in the eyes of other more experienced jumpers.

Who has more authority than you when it comes to saving your own a$$? Skydiving is all about personal responsibility and accountability.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[Designer 0]

Sure!A simple "Wa happened" would have been better from him!Alas,we sometimes react before thinking something might have gone wrong for you on opening.Years ago(when quite young and dumb)it might have been me yelling.So, don,t think badly of this person.The older we get,the more we have seen,experienced,the more likely we are to "not" jump to conclusions without all the proper facts.

[vonSanta 0]

It is possible that it was enough. I didn't think so and made a call on the fly so to speak (no pun intended). The guy behind me had no view of the freeflier though. It could be that I was too conservative, but the issue is that I got a boot to my arse, which I didn't like too much.

With 'similar sentiment' raised by two others, I mean as in 'you're a newbie, he got 8 years of experience'. They weren't on the load.

I've been told I am too timid at the DZ. I try to stay outta the way and I fully understand that I know next to nothing, and am aware of my position at the lower end of the hierarchy. I won't push my view and will back away well before anyone is offended in skydiving related discussions. "I don't think so" was the best response I had at the time, because it was my opinion (and still is) that there wasn't that much horisontal separation, with that freeflier going head down on exit and all.

At the same time, I'm also responsible for my own safety, and that of others. I want to remain humble and don't mind the developing reputation I have of being an introverted non confrontational person, yet when it comes to safety, I feel I have to voice my worries. So there's a conflict there that I haven't worked out how to solve, other than to be soft spoken and suggestive, rather than loud and very assertive.

I guess the conversation can be read as me being brusque. Was more inquisitive than irritated at the time though.

Santa Von GrossenArsch
I only come in one flavour
ohwaitthatcanbemisunderst

[Ron 7]

Well, Im not saying that you did anything wrong..You are 100% responsable for your saftey...

So I would not yell at you for taking more time, but I would sit and try to show you why you took to long (If you did).

It is my opinion that most people don't know shit about spotting, and most students now don't learn it..

So it could be that all concerned didn't have a clue. But in this case I would have to side with the guys with a few thousand jumps...

Next time if you don't want to go...slide away, and offer them your exit slot....But they should not have pushed you out.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[vonSanta 0]

Good advice Ron, will heed it.

Santa Von GrossenArsch
I only come in one flavour
ohwaitthatcanbemisunderst

[skyPrincess2002 0]

I have been in situations where I was given firm advise of mistakes made. When it comes from your friends - it can really affect your day/weekend/month. After one incident - a very level headed good friend had the best comment I have heard in a long time. When someone does something wrong - whether it is to you or to a group in the sky - the FIRST thing you should say to that person is......."Hey, what happened up there?" That comment shows concern, but in a nice and caring way. In all conflicts there are two sides to the story. What you see, and what actually may have happened could have been two different scenerio's. In your situation - it sounds like you were dealing with some complications that the other diver was not aware of.
I hope everyone can take a little advise and remember to ask what happened before yelling.

[tbrown 26]

This is a good thread to bring up some suggestions for courtesy in dealing with these things, as they do happen.

Huge egos are a big problem in our sport, I think we all know that. There are too many of us who cannot admit we may be partly at fault because we "know" we're always "right". As much as I love people in this sport, God knows we have some really obnoxious people whose social skills were neglected back in Kindergarden.

From your description of the near miss, I'd say this is one of the things that can happen. You were in a situation where you'd just opened, were having a problem and trying to get your canopy under control. If things hadn't cleared up, you'd have probably chopped.

At opening time we MUST assume that there can be somebody like you with a control problem. It's simply out of order to assume you deliberately cut anyone off. If someone cuts us off just after opening, we'd damn well better assume they're NOT in control and that the responsibility for evasive action is ours - because it is!

It's easy for me to sit here online and tell you that if it were me I'd have asked you' "gee, what happened up there on opening ?". I'm pretty laid back myself and not into blaming people. I'd have just been glad to have avoided a collision and would've understood your story. But unfortunately we're dealing with too many people with touch-hole egos and I don't know if that's ever going to change.

You were right to refuse to speak to the guy and if you needed to should probably talk to the S&TA about it, especially if you think the guy's a hazard himself. Hope that's an "atta girl" stroke for you...

Your humble servant.....Professor Gravity !

[pds 0]

i could be wrong, just ask anybody, but it appears to me that the salient issue is that while you were fighting with your canopy, the other jumper was flying AT YOU. all i really know is that if i am flying at anyone, whether they be dealing with problems or not, it is MY responsibility to save two lives. a clear pattern is not gauranteed to anyone and such a heavy handed response to such an occurance smells of experience and self confidence issues on his part.

you did the only thing you could do in reaction to him. let him show himself as an asshat with the knowledge that you are most certainly not the only one who noticed. but you already knew that. and as the seasoned skydiver you are, it wouldn't suprise me if you took the high road and actually had a rational conversation with him at a later date.

or you could just blame it on your rigger

take care, kiddo.

namaste, motherfucker.

[Rookie120 0]

I had multiple line twists on opening and it had me in a slight spin and the guy started yellin sayin I cut him off. I told him to adjust his tone if front of the crowd, he didnt so I knocked him the hell out. I was asked to never come back to that d.z. Now the action I took was wrong and should have never happened, but thats the choice I made at that time. Just recently I had a guy start yellin at me on the dz and I just smiled and smirked because I knew I was in the right and I had about 10 witnesses so I knew he was doing nothing but making an ass of himself

If you find yourself in a fair fight, your tactics suck!

[bnacrazywoman 0]

Sunshine--I think you should have taken him out to the pea pit and opened a can of whup-ass on him. But that's just my opinion.

Crazywoman