matttrudeau 0 #1 February 24, 2003 I just read the recent article about the Army Parachute Team from Fort Bragg who jumped into a recent Nascar race. I'm really dissappointed that they jumped knowing that the winds were very strong. Some jumpers landed hard, others landed way off the target, one hit a trailer in the infield. What is going on? These guys should be setting an example for other jumpers. I'm sure that made everyone in the stands want to take up skydiving now. Accidents like this are so simple to avoid. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
quade 3 #2 February 24, 2003 QuoteAccidents like this are so simple to avoid. Not always. Winds can and do pop-up sometimes very quickly and unpredictably. Let's wait until we get some more information before we assume they did something too wrong.quade - The World's Most Boring Skydiver Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhreeZone 15 #3 February 24, 2003 Matt... how many demo's have you done? I'm yet to jump on one, but did ground crew for a few. There is a totally different attitude and pressue about demos then a normal skydive. There is usually a lot of pressure to do a jump since there is money riding on the line, thats why I think the question "what amount of money will it take to do a demo into questionable conditions/location will it take to get you to do it?" needs added to the demo licence test. Any answer other then no ammount results in a failure. In this demo teams case I'm pretty sure it was not a money issue but possibly a plublicity issue (your on the list of events then never show... how bad does that look on the Army?). Plus I've read the winds had huge 20+ gust differences so its understandable if they had steady winds, got a green light then the gusts came in and blew them around. Demo jumpers have my full respect since I can't imagine some of the landing spots I've heard of demos going into/Yesterday is history And tomorrow is a mystery Parachutemanuals.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
matttrudeau 0 #4 February 24, 2003 We still don't have all the information but I still think gusts of 40 mph don't suddendly happen after you decide to jump in 20mph winds. That's a huge difference. I can't tell you how many times I've stayed on the ground and watch people land off field and break bones because they jumped in high winds. It's just bad for the sport to see the army getting pounded into the ground. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jdhill 0 #5 February 24, 2003 Winds going from 20 to 40+ in a very short period of time can happen... a few years ago, a bunch of us were sitting around the DZ watching the mind meter as it danced around the 40mph mark... the winds started to drop and when they had dropped to about 20mph and stayed there for about an hour we threw together a load... winds were still in the 15-20 range when we took off, but about 12 min later, manifest called to the pilot to stop the jump as the winds had just shot back up to about 45mph. The call came as the last jumper left the door. 2 folks made the main landing area, a few more still on the airport property, the balance were out in muddy fields down the road... fortunately there were no serious injuries, but there were alot of tangled canopies from folk chopping when they landed... So it can happen. Hope these guys are OK. JoshAll that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing. - Edmund Burke Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
matttrudeau 0 #6 February 24, 2003 OK, if it can happen and the winds were gusting that day. Why Jump? Is is worth the risk? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
lukepinion 0 #7 February 24, 2003 Quote OK, if it can happen and the winds were gusting that day. Why Jump? Is is worth the risk? Haven't you ever jumped once the winds died down? We take risks jumping out of planes...! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jdhill 0 #8 February 24, 2003 QuoteOK, if it can happen and the winds were gusting that day. Why Jump? Is is worth the risk? Speaking to my incident, when we decided to get on the load, the winds had been in the 15-20 range for over an hour, and not gusting... no one on the load preceived any more risk than that on any other jump... the more junior jumpers looked at the more seasoned folks (to include a USPA Regional Director) that got on the load... the conditions were par for the Mid-West in early spring... As for the guys that made this NASCAR jump, I don't know what they based their decision on... People set their limits based on different factors... mine are fairly conservative, and get more so as I get older... but compitition and demos drive folks to do things they might not normally do... I recall last year, at the PPPB Int event at Perris, several people doing downwinders through the distance course "just to get familiarized"... the wind had me on the gound watching them scare the chit out of me and them... getting familiarized was not worth getting hurt (not to me anyway). BTW, in the end, it did not help them win, but they got some cool strawberries out of it... I came in second shooting the course cold. JoshAll that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing. - Edmund Burke Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
matttrudeau 0 #9 February 24, 2003 I'm not talking about taking risks jumping out of planes. I'm talking about landing, the most dangerous part of skydiving. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dreamsville 0 #10 February 24, 2003 Last week we jumped when the winds were in the mid-teens, but when we landed they were gusting to the mid-20s, just in the space of 20 minutes. Either that, or we didn't take a "wind sample" during the right interval. I've seen significant weather changes occur just during the time it takes to reach altitude. From then on, it's just a question of whether the message gets to the pilot and jumpers. We just do the best we can, although the point about pressure to follow through on a demo jump probably had at least as as much to do with it. |I don't drink during the day, so I don't know what it is about this airline. I keep falling out the door of the plane. Harry, FB #4143 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
lummy 4 #11 February 24, 2003 Quote, but there were alot of tangled canopies from folk chopping when they landed... That's funny you mentioned this... I won't touch the argument about whether they should have or shouldn't have jumped til the facts are in. What I want to know is why didn't they cut away their damned main??? I saw at least two of them being dragged around....I promise not to TP Davis under canopy.. I promise not to TP Davis under canopy.. eat sushi, get smoochieTTK#1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kopelen 0 #12 February 24, 2003 MATT, don't confuse the GOLDEN KNIGHTS with the USASOC DEMO TEAM that jumped into the NASCAR race this past weekend. They are two different teams completely. So by using the "ARMY PARACHUTE TEAM FROM FORT BRAGG", this to most people are the Golden Knights please make sure you post correct information. thanks Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Jimbo 0 #13 February 24, 2003 QuoteI'm pretty sure it was not a money issue but possibly a plublicity issue (your on the list of events then never show... how bad does that look on the Army?). I honestly believe that it was a very small portion of the crowd that knew there was going to be a parachute demo, and an even smaller portion of the crowd that cared, and an even smaller portion of the crowd that would have remembered the demo beyond a day or two had it gone successfully. It's unfortunate, but now there's a large portion of the crowd that will never forget what they saw. - Jim"Like" - The modern day comma Good bye, my friends. You are missed. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skymedic 0 #14 February 24, 2003 QuoteARMY PARACHUTE TEAM FROM FORT BRAGG", he didn't post anything that was incorrect.....he did not say the golden knights...anywhere...dont flame when it is not needed... Marc otherwise known as Mr.Fallinwoman.... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tombuch 0 #15 February 25, 2003 QuoteLast week we jumped when the winds were in the mid-teens, but when we landed they were gusting to the mid-20s, just in the space of 20 minutes. Either that, or we didn't take a "wind sample" during the right interval. I've seen significant weather changes occur just during the time it takes to reach altitude. From then on, it's just a question of whether the message gets to the pilot and jumpers. We just do the best we can, although the point about pressure to follow through on a demo jump probably had at least as as much to do with it. | There are other ways to determine wind conditions. Please take a look at a recent post on The Ranch S&TA site http://ranchskydive.com/safety/tb_article6.htm. One of the elements of the feature is a suggestion to check local airport reporting points by phone or internet to get a more complete picture of the actual conditions of the air mass. The article includes contact information for The Ranch, but you should be able to get similar information for the area around many local drop zones and demo locations.Tom Buchanan Instructor Emeritus Comm Pilot MSEL,G Author: JUMP! Skydiving Made Fun and Easy Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ladyskydiver 0 #16 February 25, 2003 I've got a question....when doing a demo jump, isn't it USPA regulations that the winds have to be no higher than 15mph? Do the military demo teams have to go by the same rule as the USPA rules?Life is short! Break the rules! Forgive quickly! Kiss slowly! Love truly, Laugh uncontrollably. And never regret anything that made you smile. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
quade 3 #17 February 25, 2003 QuoteDo the military demo teams have to go by the same rule as the USPA rules? No. They may use the USPA SIM Section 7 as a guideline, but there is no requirement for them to do so.quade - The World's Most Boring Skydiver Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ladyskydiver 0 #18 February 25, 2003 Thanks!Life is short! Break the rules! Forgive quickly! Kiss slowly! Love truly, Laugh uncontrollably. And never regret anything that made you smile. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dreamsville 0 #19 February 25, 2003 Thanks. We have an AWOS (automated weather station) at Morris and I think one at Peru (I only have the Morris, Ill. number). They are on either side of the DZ here. I will look into more points here to get a broader picture. Usually, if there are marginal conditions we just blow it off and stay on the ground. After all Spring is coming?!?!?I don't drink during the day, so I don't know what it is about this airline. I keep falling out the door of the plane. Harry, FB #4143 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
crutch 0 #20 February 25, 2003 No, in fact, right now with the "orange alert" status of the country, the military teams are the only ones who can jump into events with 30,000 or more people. What gives, I don't know becuase all the requirements that the civilian jumpers need to have such as pro ratings are also thrown out the window. The military jumpers are expected to police themselves even more than us civilians, yet things like this have happened more than once to the military teams other than the Golden Knights (two years ago a Navy Seal was killed jumping into Raymond Jmaes stadium in Tampa).blue skies, art Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 1,623 #21 February 25, 2003 QuoteWinds going from 20 to 40+ in a very short period of time can happen... Josh The continental USA has the most extensive weather monitoring and forecasting system to be found anywhere. Winds don't just go from 20 to 40+ with no advance warning signs.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
quade 3 #22 February 25, 2003 QuoteThe continental USA has the most extensive weather monitoring and forecasting system to be found anywhere. Winds don't just go from 20 to 40+ with no advance warning signs. John -- I wouldn't have expected this sort of responce from a pilot. http://www.cyberair.com/tower/faa/app/p8740-40/p8740-40.htmlquade - The World's Most Boring Skydiver Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 1,623 #23 February 25, 2003 QuoteQuoteThe continental USA has the most extensive weather monitoring and forecasting system to be found anywhere. Winds don't just go from 20 to 40+ with no advance warning signs. John -- I wouldn't have expected this sort of responce from a pilot. http://www.cyberair.com/tower/faa/app/p8740-40/p8740-40.html Conditions conducive to wind shear are forecastable. I've received wind shear warnings while operating my Mooney. The kind of shear in your link is associated with outflow from thunderstorms. Thunderstorms don't creep up on you unexpectedly. If you'd said "clear air turbulence" I'd agree, but CAT doesn't apply in this case.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
quade 3 #24 February 25, 2003 QuoteConditions conducive to wind shear are forecastable. So you're saying you've never experienced conditions that were outside of what had been forecast? Seriously, you want me to believe that? Further, I don't know about SDC, but at SoCal dropzones I've seen microbursts from fairly high altitude virga that I wouldn't have really expected to cause any sort of issues at ground level. All it has to be is a decending bubble of cold air hitting the ground -- the exact opposite of a thermal.quade - The World's Most Boring Skydiver Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 1,623 #25 February 25, 2003 QuoteQuoteConditions conducive to wind shear are forecastable. So you're saying you've never experienced conditions that were outside of what had been forecast? Seriously, you want me to believe that? Of course I have, but none that crept up on me unexpectedly except when flying in IMC. I doubt the SOC guys were in IMC. Quote Further, I don't know about SDC, but at SoCal dropzones I've seen microbursts from fairly high altitude virga that I wouldn't have really expected to cause any sort of issues at ground level. All it has to be is a decending bubble of cold air hitting the ground -- the exact opposite of a thermal. But you can see virga... It doesn't take you by surprise. I am sure there will be an investigation, and the weather observations and forecasts will be part of it.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
