Dangerous Practices at a Florida DZ

[JulianS 0]

Dangerous Practices at a Florida DZ

A few yeas ago I visited a world famous Florida DZ and was quite shocked by their lack of regard for USPA and FAA laws.

Here’s what happened:
There’s a very big lake right next to the DZ. When I asked whether I need a floatation device, I was laughed at and told that only students use them, but if I REALLY wanted one, they’d give it to me.
There was a solid cloud cover about 3000 feet thick, but that didn’t seem to matter.
The plane went up to 16200 feet and had no oxygen. Not for the skydivers, not for the pilots.
By the time we got to the spot, the sun had already been below the horizon for about a minute and the thick cloud cover made it even darker on the ground.

By the time the door was opened I had considered all these factors and made a decision not to jump. I was the only one. Everyone just gave me a strange look and went out the door. I rode the plan down and left the DZ.

My question to you is this: Am I a tight-ass party pooper who blindly follows “stupid rules” and who’s not cool enough to be a skydiver, or was everyone in that plane and on the ground running the DZ wrong, but I made the right decision?
The reason I’m so confused is because this IS a world famous DZ and I was jumping with people who are EVERY experienced, famous, and good at what they do and I’m just a newbie. Don’t they know better???

[SkydiverRick 0]

I think that you made the right decision.

never pull low......unless you are

[jlmiracle 7]

Some of those things go on at other dz's around the country. I completly understand your anxiety. You made the right decision for you. If you were a regular jumper at that dz all those factors probably wouldn't make you blink an eye, but when you are trained to know better, it makes a difference.

Again you made the right decision.

Judy

Be kinder than necessary because everyone you meet is fighting some kind of battle.

[SkydiverRick 0]

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Some of those things go on at other dz's around the country. I completly understand your anxiety. You made the right decision for you. If you were a regular jumper at that dz all those factors probably wouldn't make you blink an eye, but when you are trained to know better, it makes a difference.

Again you made the right decision.

Judy

I wouldn't recommend jumping through a solid cloud layer (especially near a big lake) to anyone, regardless of experience level.

never pull low......unless you are

[jlmiracle 7]

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Some of those things go on at other dz's around the country. I completly understand your anxiety. You made the right decision for you. If you were a regular jumper at that dz all those factors probably wouldn't make you blink an eye, but when you are trained to know better, it makes a difference.

Again you made the right decision.

Judy

I wouldn't recommend jumping through a solid cloud layer (especially near a big lake) to anyone, regardless of experience level.

I'm not recommending ANYONE jump through any cloud, but they are not the only dz in america that does that.

Judy

Be kinder than necessary because everyone you meet is fighting some kind of battle.

[mr2mk1g 10]

try jumping in england and not cloud busting

we still have rules though - we must be able to see the dz from opening and must be able to see A bit of ground through the cloud somewhere. We dont break those rules.

I think you did the right thing and it took far more guts to say no to an entire plane load and DZO than it would have done to jump.

Did you get your ticket back??

[billvon 2,476]

>My question to you is this: Am I a tight-ass party pooper who blindly
> follows “stupid rules” and who’s not cool enough to be a skydiver, or
> was everyone in that plane and on the ground running the DZ
> wrong, but I made the right decision?

There is no black and white, right or wrong in cases like this. You have to make decisions that YOU are comfortable with; other people do the same. If you go along with everyone else, you're not neccessarily right or wrong; if you stay in the plane while they jump, you may both be doing what you're comfortable with.

I've done two ways through 9000 feet of cloud; I've also stayed in the plane under the same conditions because I had people (students, organizees) that I was responsible for. It's all what you are comfortable with, based on your experience, knowledge of the risks and acceptance of them. Personally, it impresses me when I'm organizing or teaching and someone says "I'm not comfortable doing that." It means they're taking responsibility for their own safety, and that's the attitude that keeps people alive in this sport.

[quade 3]

Depends on the exact situation.

Just because something is legal doesn't make it safe.
Just because something is illegal doesn't make it unsafe.

For instance, there's nothing illegal with making your first ever jump out of an airplane, solo and at night. You wouldn't even need a USPA instructor -- totally Fandango. Perfectly legal according to the FAA, but obviously not very wise.

I can see where, under the right conditions, I could accept intentionally jumping through a cloud. I don't see the logic of the FAR "see and avoid" reasoning for the freefall portion of the jump since there is a huge disconnect between the concept as it applies during daylight and night operations. (But that's another discussion altogether.)

However, under canopy is something else altogether and I personally would be very hesitant to ever jump if there is a high probablility of having to deploy while in a cloud.

I'm not suggesting that anyone ever use this as an excuse nor am I condoning cloud jumping on a regular basis, but it does occasionally happen accidentally and can be (could be) done safely under the right circumstances.

With the combination of things you've mentioned, I would really have thought twice about jumping myself. Other conditions, like the cloud ceiling for instance, would need to fall within my own personal limits before doing so.

You need to establish your own personal limits as to when you will and will not jump. Don't let anyone bully you into a situation. If it's not within your own personal limits -- just don't jump.

ALL of the above said, the USPA BSRs were written in blood. They should usually be your minimum acceptable standard by which you judge things.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[FrancoR 0]

Have a look at this thred in incidents:
http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=626949;sb=post_latest_reply;so=ASC;forum_view=forum_view_collapsed;;page=unread#unread
There fonzi writes that the person was told not to jump because he had twisted risers. He took the wrong decision and jumped, it was his last jump.

If people would take the decision not to jump because they are uncomfortable with something, maybe a few incidents could be avoided.
Whats the cost of a jumpticket compared to the price of a possible injury or death?

It should not be an issue if people take the decision not to jump, even if it seemed totaly unnecesary.

Franco

If it does not cost anything you are the product.

[TheBachelor 5]

It's your life. If you're not comfortable with everything about the situation, ride it down. On the other hand, when I was a newbie I made a jump once that I shouldn't have, just because everyone else was jumping. Fortunately, my underwear was the only thing that sustained any damage on that jump.

There are battered women? I've been eating 'em plain all of these years...

[Luna 0]

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There’s a very big lake right next to the DZ. When I asked whether I need a floatation device, I was laughed at and told that only students use them, but if I REALLY wanted one, they’d give it to me.

Just wanted to point out that they probably have a standing waiver for experienced jumpers on the flotation device. We jump right next to a river, and we have the same. Students are not waiverable, however. So, more than likely they were not breaking any BSR or any other rule on this count.

That said, I totally would have ridden the plane down as you did in that situation, and you should never doubt that you made the right decision!

I'm walking a marathon to raise money for the Leukemia & Lymphoma Society. Click Here for more information!

[hookitt 0]

I won't mention the name of the large body of water, but the initials are Lake Okeechobee....

A friend of mine was tracking with the locals there, L**** was leading the dive on his Belly. The others on their back. After passing through a cloud, L**** sat up abrubtly and pointed toward land and then pulls.

Every one made it back to dry land by a very slim margin.

The Point of View of my friends video was quite scary.

How do you feel about your decision?

My grammar sometimes resembles that of magnetic refrigerator poetry... Ghetto

[sducoach 0]

Quade,
You must have read your AOPA online this week?????
Sounds familiar.........

Blues,

J.E.

James 4:8

[SkydiverRick 0]

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I won't mention the name of the large body of water, but the initials are Lake Okeechobee....

I used to live on the north side of the lake. For those not familiar with it, Lake Okeechobee has a diameter of 45 miles (approx.)

never pull low......unless you are

[JohnRich 4]

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There’s a very big lake right next to the DZ.

Since the lake has already been identified, there's only two possible drop zones you are talking about, to my knowledge: the former Pahokie DZ, and Clewiston. And it matters which one, because Pahokie is right on the edge of the lake, while Clewiston is a few miles from it. So depending upon which DZ you are talking about, the jump could have been much more risky at one than the other.

Why not just go ahead and identify it?

[headoverheels 292]

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>There is no black and white, right or wrong in cases like this.

In the US, it is illegal to punch a cloud, or to be within 1000 feet above, 500 feet below, or 2000 feet horizontally from them -- further if above 10000 feet MSL. The danger is to other aircraft. In the US, we have uncontrolled VFR over undercasts, as well as under overcasts. Separation from aircraft is visual, so we need to be able to see them. So, it's always wrong. Not that it doesn't happen pretty often. The jump aircraft also has to meet the same cloud separation distances.

In the era of GPS spotting, it's not so likely that a bad spot over clouds/water will happen, unless the pilot is confused. About the time I started jumping, a load of jumpers drowned from a bad over clouds/over water spot..

[SkydiverRick 0]

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>There is no black and white, right or wrong in cases like this.

In the US, it is illegal to punch a cloud, or to be within 1000 feet above, 500 feet below, or 2000 feet horizontally from them -- further if above 10000 feet MSL. The danger is to other aircraft. In the US, we have uncontrolled VFR over undercasts, as well as under overcasts. Separation from aircraft is visual, so we need to be able to see them. So, it's always wrong. Not that it doesn't happen pretty often. The jump aircraft also has to meet the same cloud separation distances.

In the era of GPS spotting, it's not so likely that a bad spot over clouds/water will happen, unless the pilot is confused. About the time I started jumping, a load of jumpers drowned from a bad over clouds/over water spot..

I know of a couple of tandems that landed at the wrong airport because the pilot pushed the wrong button on his GPS.

never pull low......unless you are

[SkydiverRick 0]

In the era of GPS spotting, it's not so likely that a bad spot over clouds/water will happen, unless the pilot is confused.

[pds 0]

you did the right thing. for you.

i am very confident that they did not put students out, at 16k (no big deal unless you did 5 gorounds), and the spot was by gps. i am also very confident that the pilot did not see "full ground cover". if i am wrong, then someone else should take appropriate action.

never make a jump you aren't 'comfortable' with. too bad landing in a jump plane is more scary than jumping out of one.

thanks for taking the time to bring this up. who knows, it may have been one of those little things that could kill someone.

sky

namaste, motherfucker.

[skydiveacapulco 0]

I know of a couple of tandems that landed at the wrong airport because the pilot pushed the wrong button on his GPS.

[BETO74 0]

When did this happened? it has to be a while back, unless you jump with the people that meets in Pahokee every Sunday.

http://web.mac.com/ac057a/iWeb/AC057A/H0M3.html

[skreamer 1]

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A few yeas ago I visited a world famous Florida DZ and was quite shocked by their lack of regard for USPA and FAA laws.

[kallend 1,681]

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I only went there once. Didn't like the use of pot during the day while people were engaged in jumping.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[Tonto 1]

You're here.

That means you made the right call.

In SA, jumping through cloud is not illegal. If our DZ were near a mountain, higher elevation, large lakes etc, I'd have a problem with GPS spots through cloud. It's not, so I don't.

Stay within your limitations. Let others stay within theirs, even if theirs exceeds yours.

Blue Skies,

t

It's the year of the Pig.

[jsaxton 0]

As I'm sure we all know, hehe, there are lots of reasons that people land off not just a bad spot. Heck, if the LZ is a zoo (happens sometimes especially at boogies) I'd rather land off than deal with the crazy landing pattern.