Throw-out conversions in the USA

[Peej 0]

Ok so what's the deal in the USA?

When do you guys convert from ripcords to a throw-out pilot chute?

In South Africa (Johanessburg Skydiving Club) we do AFF on Skymaster 235 ripcord rigs and then do a two jump throw-out conversion - we end up on a 200.

I've heard a couple of scary (and at times down right unbelievable) stories about how in the USA they put AFF students on throw-out rigs from jump one.

(I even heard AFF students jumps ellipticals but i can't believe a DZ would be that irresponsible.)

Need some evidence to stop the rumours. Thanks ahead of time for the info.

Peace

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[kai2k1 0]

At my DZ, we use BOC throw outs all the way through AFF, only Tandems use a Ripcord deployment.

There's no truer sense of flying than sky diving," Scott Cowan

[skybytch 259]

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I've heard a couple of scary (and at times down right unbelievable) stories about how in the USA they put AFF students on throw-out rigs from jump one.

Some dz's do. My son did his level one on a throwout at Perris. With training it's no more or less dangerous than using a ripcord/spring loaded pc setup.

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(I even heard AFF students jumps ellipticals but i can't believe a DZ would be that irresponsible.)

Depends on how you define elliptical. I know of a few dz's that use Sabre2's for their students. Again, with training it's not any more or less dangerous to put a student on a zp canopy loaded below 1.0 than putting a 120 pound girl out on a Manta.

In both cases I think the way the more progressive dz's in the US are training jumpers makes sense. Why not train people on the same type of deployment system and the same type of canopy that they will be buying when they are off student status?

[PhreeZone 15]

Scary as it is a lot of DZ's train on the BOC on the first jump. And even more incredible is that some use Sabre2's as first canopies.

There is nothing at all wrong with using BOC's on the first jump and with the introduction of the cutaway BOC it makes it so either side JM can release the main. Might as well train the jumpers on what they are going to be using as soon as they are done with AFF. Personally ripcords are antiques for freefall for main deployments. Get a rig with a BOC and it can be used to IAD students as a replacement for Static lining, it can be used for freefall and it can be used a a rental rig with no need for packing or jumping it any different.

The places that use Sabre2 canopies usually first have the jumper do a few teaching tandem jumps were they learn canopy skills, and other things. Jumpers that do this type of training are usually ahead of their AFF peers in terms of canopy skills for the first few jumps. They also spend a lot more time learning to fly a canopy before they jump.

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And tomorrow is a mystery

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[Nutz 0]

I thought everyone used throwouts. The DZ where I learned puts students out on elipticals as well.

[nightjumps 1]

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I've heard a couple of scary (and at times down right unbelievable) stories about how in the USA they put AFF students on throw-out rigs from jump one.

The funny thing is we've been hearing a couple of scary (and at times unbelievable) stories that you folks still use pull-out ripcords and F-111 for your AFF students.

Yes. Several DZs have adopted BOC and "SEMI" ellipiticals (loaded at .75 or less and brake lines e-tuned) for AFF Students. If its what they're gonna be jumping, why not train them on it?

Times change, Brother... What would you guys think of a DZ that still uses round mains, round reserves and chest mounted rip cords?

[MuffDiver 0]

Whats a ripcord?

Just kidding. I was trained from jump 1 with a BOC and I didn't have any problems (I haven't seen any problems with other students either). I think that learning different systems after a few jumps would be confusing.

__________________________________________________
Don't take life too seriously. You'll never get out alive.

[hookitt 0]

Jumping Throw-outs on first jump has been common practice for many years. I was very happy when our DZ adopted the throw out.

The BOC pouch has a reserve side handle as well, should deployment from the reserve side become needed.

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I've heard a couple of scary (and at times down right unbelievable) stories about how in the USA they put AFF students on throw-out rigs from jump one

There are many Scary and unbelieveable stories about AFF in general. It's certainly not limited to Throwout. I've had many unusual things happen so far in my AFF career. The BOC deployment method has yet to be a factor on any dives I've participated in.

It's progress. Try and believe me on this one, it's a good thing.

My grammar sometimes resembles that of magnetic refrigerator poetry... Ghetto

[AggieDave 6]

Before the USPA was considering changing the BSRs to allow wide spread usage of throw-out PCs for students, Roger Nelson got basically a waiver from the USPA to allow him to use and test the design for students. He presented the USPA with a stack of video tapes of hundreds of AFF jumps where it wasn't a problem. Infact, it was shown that there were fewer problems with the BOC/throw-out system then with the springloaded PCs. How many times have you seen a student get hit in the back of the head by a springloaded PC or have you seen a spring loaded PC "dance" in the student's burble? Now apply that to an AFF jump, where the burble is considerably larger due to atleast 1 instructor being right next to the student.

The BOCs used with students have reserve side handles as well, where all the instructer has to do is pull the velcro and yank. The top of the BOC disconnects, releasing the PC into the wind.

That was also tested pretty extensively before throw-outs were widely excepted for student use.



What's better?

Teaching a student, creating muscle memory (a habit) on a system that they won't use after their off student status, OR teaching a student, creating muscle memory, on a system they WILL be using?

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[mjosparky 3]

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I've heard a couple of scary (and at times down right unbelievable) stories about how in the USA they put AFF students on throw-out rigs from jump one.

The funny thing is we've been hearing a couple of scary (and at times unbelievable) stories that you folks still use pull-out ripcords and F-111 for your AFF students.

Yes. Several DZs have adopted BOC and "SEMI" ellipiticals (loaded at .75 or less and brake lines e-tuned) for AFF Students. If its what they're gonna be jumping, why not train them on it?

Times change, Brother... What would you guys think of a DZ that still uses round mains, round reserves and chest mounted rip cords?

Proper training can and will make almost anything possible.

My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

[Fast 0]

My DZ hasn't converted to a throw out system as of yet for students. I think one of the concerns is the cost of prucashing new rigs, and eventually it will happen.

The thing that I find scary is that converstion from the student ripcord rigs to the sport throw outs often leaves a student streaming along in the wind with a PC in hand because they forget to throw. 5 seconds later you realize its a differnt rig, let go and have a canopy overhead.

Learning one muscle memory only to have to unlearn it and relearn on boc 10-20 jumps later is deffiniatly not the best method in my opinion. It works, but why not just start with throw outs.

~D
Where troubles melt like lemon drops Away above the chimney tops That's where you'll find me.
Swooping is taking one last poke at the bear before escaping it's cave - davelepka

[billvon 2,400]

>I've heard a couple of scary (and at times down right unbelievable)
> stories about how in the USA they put AFF students on throw-out rigs
> from jump one.

My first freefall (in the SL program) was on a throwout. They cause a few problems (ask Carmen Mullenix about the dangers of throwouts) but used correctly they can give more reliable deployments. Six of one, half a dozen of the other.

>I even heard AFF students jumps ellipticals but i can't believe a DZ
>would be that irresponsible.

Skydive Chicago does this to some degree. If you get the right training it's only marginally more dangerous than jumping a Manta, and is safer in the long run since you don't have to un-learn bad habits from Mantas. Again, there are good arguments on both sides.

[schattenjaeger 0]

Both of my jumps have been BOC with throw-out pilot chutes, on Sabres(not 2s, I think)

[Hooknswoop 19]

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I think one of the concerns is the cost of prucashing new rigs, and eventually it will happen.

They should be able to convert the rip cord deployment to throw out deployment.

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The thing that I find scary is that converstion from the student ripcord rigs to the sport throw outs often leaves a student streaming along in the wind with a PC in hand because they forget to throw. 5 seconds later you realize its a differnt rig, let go and have a canopy overhead.

i have taught w/ throw out and rip cord. If they learn from the get-go to throw the handle, there isn't a problem. If they learn rip cord, then transition to throw out, exactly what you describe often happens. It is possbile to teach throw out deployment from jump 1, even with tandems that have rip cords (The Sigma makes this even easier). I have 700+ tandems where the student would pull and throw the right side drogue release handle. I lost maybe 1 or 2 handles, and then only if they pull quick and early. I would hang on the cable part of the rip cord as they pulled and threw the handle. When they transitioned to their own rig, they would pull and throw, no problem.

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Learning one muscle memory only to have to unlearn it and relearn on boc 10-20 jumps later is deffiniatly not the best method in my opinion. It works, but why not just start with throw outs.

I have found throw out to work better, plus the added bonus of not having to transition later.

Derek

[wmw999 2,122]

I remember jokes about putting students out on squares .

Wendy W.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[lazerq3 0]

Ripcord jump 1-7 then conversion to throwout within next 3 to 4 jumps!!!

jason

Freedom of speech includes volume

[phonics1981 0]

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The thing that I find scary is that converstion from the student ripcord rigs to the sport throw outs often leaves a student streaming along in the wind with a PC in hand because they forget to throw. 5 seconds later you realize its a differnt rig, let go and have a canopy overhead.

This actually happens? Its not hard to just let go

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Learning one muscle memory only to have to unlearn it and relearn on .

At my DZ all the AFF rigs are BOC Rip Cord so conversion is normally simple. Learning to let go isnt hard. Also, I only really relied on muscle memory when pulling during my first few jums. Now it is a concious effort.

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[nutter 0]

i want to know why they only use BOC, and not pull out.I find here in south Africa we push the BOC option , very few people use the good old Pull out system.

"Expecting the world to treat you fairly because you are good is like expecting the bull not to charge because you are a vegetarian."

[TrickyDicky 0]

In this country (UK) you're not allowed to jump pull out untill you got a C licence (200 jumps).

PS, alot of people keep refering to throw-away PC as BOC. all BOC means is Bottom of Conatainer, and you can have BOC ripcords or BOC pullouts aswell as BOC throw away. Other positions are ROL (rear of leg) that people used to use before BOC became popular. And again you can have ROL throw away or ripchord. They like to teach people who are coming through RAPS at my dz ROL to start with because it can reduce hard pulls. All AFF is taught on BOC though.

UK Skydiver for all your UK skydiving needs.

[Fast 0]

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The thing that I find scary is that converstion from the student ripcord rigs to the sport throw outs often leaves a student streaming along in the wind with a PC in hand because they forget to throw. 5 seconds later you realize its a differnt rig, let go and have a canopy overhead.

This actually happens? Its not hard to just let go

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Learning one muscle memory only to have to unlearn it and relearn on .

At my DZ all the AFF rigs are BOC Rip Cord so conversion is normally simple. Learning to let go isnt hard. Also, I only really relied on muscle memory when pulling during my first few jums. Now it is a concious effort.

Yes it actually happens. When you use a ripcord they drive it in your head to not let the thing drop or you have to pay for it, or buy a case of beer. So naturally when you first jump a throw out, you hold onto that thing with a deathgrip, till you realize uhh yeah nothings comming out... duh... still holding the PC.

Trust me, it happens a lot.

~D
Where troubles melt like lemon drops Away above the chimney tops That's where you'll find me.
Swooping is taking one last poke at the bear before escaping it's cave - davelepka

[phonics1981 0]

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Yes it actually happens. When you use a ripcord they drive it in your head to not let the thing drop or you have to pay for it, or buy a case of beer. So naturally when you first jump a throw out, you hold onto that thing with a deathgrip, till you realize uhh yeah nothings comming out... duh... still holding the PC.

Trust me, it happens a lot.

I believe ya. Even more so after seeing Lutz try to deploy his main by using the Cutaway pad!!

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