freebird185 0 #1 October 29, 2003 First jump on Sunday, the dive goes great. We track away, I clear the air above me, pull my pilot chute, and then WWHHAAMM!!!! The hardest damn opening I’ve ever encountered. The opening shock forced an involuntary grunt from my diaphragm as I was compressed into my harness so much that my throat was resting on my chest strap. My spine was bent forward and compressed so hard that I considered it to be fractured. My breath was forced from my lungs and it took a good 10 sec to start breathing again and correct my hunched back. I corrected my spin with rear riser input and cleared my air space (this is pure habit). After fighting it to fly straight for a while I realized that I had broken my right steering line, and I releases the left brake stow. The canopy flew straight and true after that, but then I had to decide whether to cut away or land on rear risers. At this point the dominating thought was that I NEVER wanted to experience that kind of opening shock ever again. I figured that a 150 (1.4wl) is the smallest I could land with rear risers, so I decided to go for it. Well, with no wind and no toggle flare to slow me down along with the fact that I flared to high and to far for rear riser input I twisted my knee on landing thus tearing my ACL. My mini risers stretched so much that the hard housing’s stitching was pulled away from the riser. And yes I was flying a Cobalt. I don’t mean to attack the Cobalt, but I think there are a lot of people that are under the impression that Cobalts are not susceptible to this kind of thing (I was one of them). And after some searching on this forum I have found that hard openings violent enough to cause gear damage happen on all types of canopies. Even Saber 2’s, a Spectra, and a FX I believe. Until you’ve experienced it yourself I don’t think anyone can appreciate the awesome traumatic force of a hard opening. And I’m not talking about those occasional slammers you get on Sabers every now and then; I’m talking about the kind of openings that brake things. Nothing obvious caused my opening. Locking stows (rubber bands) where in tack upon inspection, my pilot chute is well matched, and the slider was not closed. I think it was cause by some bad packing habits (like waiting to replacing the broken rubber bands and not pushing the slider all the way down to the stops), and bad luck. PD has a good article on how to prevent hard openings with good packing habits. Check it out. http://performancedesigns.com/docs/hrdopn.pdf Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BMFin 0 #2 October 29, 2003 Wow ! Cant say nothing more, but: This is the first time i get really scared this would happen to me sometimes.. I thought I had one slammer on a sabre, but after reading this I guess I have to change my signature... Hope your knee gets better... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nicknitro71 0 #3 October 29, 2003 It truly sucks man that should not happen but on a CRW canopy at terminal! At Atair they are aware of the problem and I am not talking abut Dan I am referring to the person who designs and manufactures all Atair products, Stane. I talked to him extensively at Bridge day and he is designing the successor of the Cobalt as we speak and most of the work is going to be concentrated on the openings. I told him that at some point in time he had a helluva canopy out there that had it all, opening, turn, flare, i.e. the Viper. He too agreed and stayed that he will try to incorporate the best features of all the canopies he has made into this new product. It seems thought that the openings on Cobalts are an intrinsic characteristic of a particular canopy not a trend across sizes; just too weird. By the way I found Stane to be a humble, smart, and very passionate man.Memento Audere Semper 903 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nightjumps 1 #4 October 29, 2003 Yes, they hurt. And yes, they can happen on any canopy. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sdctlc 0 #5 October 29, 2003 http://performancedesigns.com/docs/hrdopn.pdf"He who Hesitates Shall Inherit the Earth!" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SkymonkeyONE 3 #6 October 29, 2003 QuoteYes, they hurt. And yes, they can happen on any canopy. Keith is correct. No need bashing any one canopy for random whackers when it's true that EVERY canopy can and has opened hard on various occasions. Line dump, shitty packing, and poor maintenance are causes. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,417 #7 October 29, 2003 >No need bashing any one canopy for random whackers when it's true >that EVERY canopy can and has opened hard on various occasions. Well, to be fair, they are more common on some canopies than others - although all are at risk for such openings. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Samurai136 0 #8 October 29, 2003 How tight were your line stows? If they were single wrapped or worn tube stoes they may have been too loose combined w/ a fast tracking deployment. If the canopy gets to line stretch too quick (aka line dump) you'll get a hard opening. Just some food for thought...Ken"Buttons aren't toys." - Trillian Ken Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Hooknswoop 19 #9 October 29, 2003 QuoteHow tight were your line stows? If they were single wrapped or worn tube stoes they may have been too loose combined w/ a fast tracking deployment. If the canopy gets to line stretch too quick (aka line dump) you'll get a hard opening. I hear this often, but it isn't true. As long as the locking stows remain in place until line stretch, the rest of the lines don't matter. Take a look at reserve free-bags or the new no rubber-band main d-bags that are being developed. The only lines that are held in place are the locking stows, the rest are coilled in a pouch. Tight stows lead to bag locks, not better openings. Derek Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
freebird185 0 #10 October 29, 2003 Yes, it's the locking stows that matter. I was using a four grommet D-bag with fairly tight stows and at least 2 inches of line at the end of the stow. However, whether or not it takes 10-12lbs of force to pull them out as PD suggests, I do not know. 10-12 lbs is heavier than one might think, and I plan to test this before I get back in the air. Remember micro lines are thin and have less friction than Dracon. The lines may have slipped right out of the stows if the D-bag was pulled hard enough, thus causing line dump.If we trained monkeys to pack, would you jump their pack jobs? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Hooknswoop 19 #11 October 29, 2003 QuoteThe lines may have slipped right out of the stows if the D-bag was pulled hard enough, thus causing line dump. If you measure the distance between the 2 locking stow grommets, it is usually between 4 and 6 inches. If you make 2 inch stows, then there is 8 inches of line outside the stows and only 4 to 6 inches of lines between the stows. This makes it difficult for the lines to fall out of the stows. Incidents where the canopy comes out of the d-bag before line stratch are rare and Dacron lines, loose stows and a big PC are usually at fault. Derek Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
VectorBoy 0 #12 October 29, 2003 It seems thought that the openings on Cobalts are an intrinsic characteristic of a particular canopy not a trend across sizes; just too weird. Quote My introduction to the cobalt was on 150 loaded about 1:2. It was the only cobalt that had the true patented "2-stage" opening. It was really scary soft with no pronounced changes in the amplitude of the forces from pin pull to full inflation. It flew for a few moments in only three cells. It was what really sold me on the product, that and the overall performance. Every other cobalt I have jumped was soft but didn't demonstrate the two stage opening as that first 150 had. I have been smacked on my other cobalts that I literally saw stars on a few occasions but I did not pack those and have become mindfull of who I let pack for me now. And I'm no superpacker by any stretch. I just pay attention to , like you said, the slider being on the stops and the tail being tight. Overall the rest of my pack job is not pretty at all, its really kind of lazy. I have also experimented with varying stow tension and changes in PC size as I have several d-bags and PC to play with. The greatest factor for me has been the slider, the nose ( whether I leave it hang or push it back a tad ) and how tight the tail is rolled. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Samurai136 0 #13 October 29, 2003 QuoteI hear this often, but it isn't true. As long as the locking stows remain in place until line stretch, the rest of the lines don't matter. Take a look at reserve free-bags or the new no rubber-band main d-bags that are being developed. The only lines that are held in place are the locking stows, the rest are coilled in a pouch. Tight stows lead to bag locks, not better openings. Ask Scott Miller his thoughts about the new d-bag and hard openings. Hard openings stem from not having the slider secured against the stops and loose line stows. Ken"Buttons aren't toys." - Trillian Ken Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites hookitt 0 #14 October 29, 2003 QuoteHard openings stem from not having the slider secured against the stops and loose line stows. Slider yes... loose line stows.. no. I've been proving this for nearly the whole season. Locking stows loose but with 2 to 3 inch bites, and stowing the rest of the lines is optional. I packed my stiletto's lines and my Xaos lines this way every since rigging65 and others brought it to my attention that the speed at which the lines are deployed don't matter. I've always known that staged deployments matter but didn't realize that all that needs to happen is line stretch before the bag gets pulled off the parachute and it opens the same. Hooknswoop is correct.My grammar sometimes resembles that of magnetic refrigerator poetry... Ghetto Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites PhreeZone 15 #15 October 29, 2003 >I've been proving this for nearly the whole season Toss another one in thats been going with out a stows a lot of the time. Nice consistant openings with or with out rubberbands,Yesterday is history And tomorrow is a mystery Parachutemanuals.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites rigging65 0 #16 October 30, 2003 QuoteAsk Scott Miller his thoughts about the new d-bag and hard openings. Hard openings stem from not having the slider secured against the stops and loose line stows. Can you elaborate about what happened to Scott? I hadn't heard anything negative about freestowing lines and I'd be interested if anyone else has. I've been jumping a completely stowless bag for almost a year know and my openings haven't changed at all. Still sweet as honey on my Xaos (as well as Stilettos and Nitrons). I'll definitely give you that proper slider positioning is essential to controlled openings, but you'd need to show me something other than what I've seen/experienced/heard from others to change my mind about stows. "...and once you had tasted flight, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward. For there you have been, and there you long to return..." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites VectorBoy 0 #17 October 30, 2003 Ryan is your stowless bag patterned for one those reflex or trident style containers? Is it available for other rigs? Interested in making it available for jumpers using other rigs? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Samurai136 0 #18 October 30, 2003 Nothing happened to Scott. He was talking about hard openings at a canopy control couse. He commented that although people using the new PD d-bags had normal openings that they were all very experienced skydivers. Point being that it hadn't really been tested w/ new jumpers and larger canopies who may be prone to making many more packing/ body position mistakes. His analogy about loose line stows was " tie a rope around your waist and anchor it to a tree. Walk away until you stop. Try it again and run as fast as you can. Which is going to hurt more when you stop?" Personally, I still don't double wrap any stows but I have on occassion gotten significantly harder openings out of my canopy and the only variable was that the rubber bands were beginning to look worn when I packed it. I use the small mil-spec bands and the locking stows are always secure but I've let the other bands wear until they break before I change them. Usually any one non-locking stow band gets about 6 jumps before it breaks in my experience. Ken"Buttons aren't toys." - Trillian Ken Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Hooknswoop 19 #19 October 30, 2003 If loose stows cause hard openings, then why doesn't no-stow d-bags/free-bags cause hard openings? Derek Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites freebird185 0 #20 October 30, 2003 QuoteIf loose stows cause hard openings, then why doesn't no-stow d-bags/free-bags cause hard openings? Free-bags have locking stows! You must make sure that the locking stows are secure and that the bands are fairly new. If they are not then you may get line dump. It does happen, and it hurts. Don’t take my word for it. Read this from PD. http://performancedesigns.com/docs/hrdopn.pdfIf we trained monkeys to pack, would you jump their pack jobs? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Samurai136 0 #21 October 30, 2003 PIA did a study on this for 2001 symposium. Look it up. Free-bags are part of the reserve deployment process and are designed to not produce hard openings. The stow-less d-bag for main canopies is a different issue. People jumping them are experienced and jumping smaller canopies. According to the PIA study a nominal opening on a smaller canopy ,when the canopy in not dumped from the bag, actually opens harder than a larger canopy with the same jumper and airspeed. But the reverse is true for line dumps because a larger canopy has more 'instant drag' than a smaller canopy thus a significatly more forceful opening. In your case you may have enough experience combined w/ jumping a smaller canopy to not get noticably harder openings good or bad. Ken"Buttons aren't toys." - Trillian Ken Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites sundevil777 94 #22 October 30, 2003 In Reply To -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- If loose stows cause hard openings, then why doesn't no-stow d-bags/free-bags cause hard openings? -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Free-bags have locking stows! You must make sure that the locking stows are secure and that the bands are fairly new. If they are not then you may get line dump. It does happen, and it hurts. Don’t take my word for it. Read this from PD. >>>>>>> Of course he knows that free bags have locking stows. He was refering to the non-locking 'stows' on the new bags that don't use actual 'stows' The point he was making is that only the bag locking 'stows' or whatever 'stow' equivalent mechanism is used to lock the bag is important. The other 'stows' are only there to keep things orderly, not to avoid a hard opening.People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites sundevil777 94 #23 October 30, 2003 QuoteBut the reverse is true for line dumps because a larger canopy has more 'instant drag' than a smaller canopy thus a significatly more forceful opening. I believe line dump in the PIA study may be refering to what Hook would call bag dump.People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Hooknswoop 19 #24 October 30, 2003 QuoteFree-bags are part of the reserve deployment process and are designed to not produce hard openings. The stow-less d-bag for main canopies is a different issue. People jumping them are experienced and jumping smaller canopies. The no-stow D-bag operates the same way a free-bag does. The lines play out under very little resistance from a pouch with only the locking stows holding the bag closed until line stretch pulls them out and opens the d-bag. The free-bag was designed for a quick opening. The PC doesn't have to pull lines out of rubber bands every 14-18 inches, slowing deployment. It only has a locking stow to prevent bag dump. QuoteIn your case you may have enough experience combined w/ jumping a smaller canopy to not get noticably harder openings good or bad. If I have 50 jumps or 5000 jumps makes zero difference on how the stows affect the opening. If I pack slider down and pull at terminal I will have a hard opening, jumpers numbers won't help. I have used the free bag on several canopies, from a Stiletto 97 up to a Safire 189 without the Velcro pouch-stowed lines causing any hard openings. As long as the bag stays closed until line stretch, it won't matter if the non-locking stows were held tight or loose in a pouch or free-stowed in the bottom of the main pack tray. Tight line stows are not necessary for soft openings. Only the locking stows are important. Derek Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites freebird185 0 #25 October 30, 2003 Thanks for clearing that up. Where can I learn about no-stow D-bags? Who makes them?If we trained monkeys to pack, would you jump their pack jobs? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1 2 Next Page 1 of 2 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. 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Samurai136 0 #13 October 29, 2003 QuoteI hear this often, but it isn't true. As long as the locking stows remain in place until line stretch, the rest of the lines don't matter. Take a look at reserve free-bags or the new no rubber-band main d-bags that are being developed. The only lines that are held in place are the locking stows, the rest are coilled in a pouch. Tight stows lead to bag locks, not better openings. Ask Scott Miller his thoughts about the new d-bag and hard openings. Hard openings stem from not having the slider secured against the stops and loose line stows. Ken"Buttons aren't toys." - Trillian Ken Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
hookitt 0 #14 October 29, 2003 QuoteHard openings stem from not having the slider secured against the stops and loose line stows. Slider yes... loose line stows.. no. I've been proving this for nearly the whole season. Locking stows loose but with 2 to 3 inch bites, and stowing the rest of the lines is optional. I packed my stiletto's lines and my Xaos lines this way every since rigging65 and others brought it to my attention that the speed at which the lines are deployed don't matter. I've always known that staged deployments matter but didn't realize that all that needs to happen is line stretch before the bag gets pulled off the parachute and it opens the same. Hooknswoop is correct.My grammar sometimes resembles that of magnetic refrigerator poetry... Ghetto Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhreeZone 15 #15 October 29, 2003 >I've been proving this for nearly the whole season Toss another one in thats been going with out a stows a lot of the time. Nice consistant openings with or with out rubberbands,Yesterday is history And tomorrow is a mystery Parachutemanuals.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rigging65 0 #16 October 30, 2003 QuoteAsk Scott Miller his thoughts about the new d-bag and hard openings. Hard openings stem from not having the slider secured against the stops and loose line stows. Can you elaborate about what happened to Scott? I hadn't heard anything negative about freestowing lines and I'd be interested if anyone else has. I've been jumping a completely stowless bag for almost a year know and my openings haven't changed at all. Still sweet as honey on my Xaos (as well as Stilettos and Nitrons). I'll definitely give you that proper slider positioning is essential to controlled openings, but you'd need to show me something other than what I've seen/experienced/heard from others to change my mind about stows. "...and once you had tasted flight, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward. For there you have been, and there you long to return..." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
VectorBoy 0 #17 October 30, 2003 Ryan is your stowless bag patterned for one those reflex or trident style containers? Is it available for other rigs? Interested in making it available for jumpers using other rigs? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Samurai136 0 #18 October 30, 2003 Nothing happened to Scott. He was talking about hard openings at a canopy control couse. He commented that although people using the new PD d-bags had normal openings that they were all very experienced skydivers. Point being that it hadn't really been tested w/ new jumpers and larger canopies who may be prone to making many more packing/ body position mistakes. His analogy about loose line stows was " tie a rope around your waist and anchor it to a tree. Walk away until you stop. Try it again and run as fast as you can. Which is going to hurt more when you stop?" Personally, I still don't double wrap any stows but I have on occassion gotten significantly harder openings out of my canopy and the only variable was that the rubber bands were beginning to look worn when I packed it. I use the small mil-spec bands and the locking stows are always secure but I've let the other bands wear until they break before I change them. Usually any one non-locking stow band gets about 6 jumps before it breaks in my experience. Ken"Buttons aren't toys." - Trillian Ken Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Hooknswoop 19 #19 October 30, 2003 If loose stows cause hard openings, then why doesn't no-stow d-bags/free-bags cause hard openings? Derek Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
freebird185 0 #20 October 30, 2003 QuoteIf loose stows cause hard openings, then why doesn't no-stow d-bags/free-bags cause hard openings? Free-bags have locking stows! You must make sure that the locking stows are secure and that the bands are fairly new. If they are not then you may get line dump. It does happen, and it hurts. Don’t take my word for it. Read this from PD. http://performancedesigns.com/docs/hrdopn.pdfIf we trained monkeys to pack, would you jump their pack jobs? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Samurai136 0 #21 October 30, 2003 PIA did a study on this for 2001 symposium. Look it up. Free-bags are part of the reserve deployment process and are designed to not produce hard openings. The stow-less d-bag for main canopies is a different issue. People jumping them are experienced and jumping smaller canopies. According to the PIA study a nominal opening on a smaller canopy ,when the canopy in not dumped from the bag, actually opens harder than a larger canopy with the same jumper and airspeed. But the reverse is true for line dumps because a larger canopy has more 'instant drag' than a smaller canopy thus a significatly more forceful opening. In your case you may have enough experience combined w/ jumping a smaller canopy to not get noticably harder openings good or bad. Ken"Buttons aren't toys." - Trillian Ken Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sundevil777 94 #22 October 30, 2003 In Reply To -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- If loose stows cause hard openings, then why doesn't no-stow d-bags/free-bags cause hard openings? -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Free-bags have locking stows! You must make sure that the locking stows are secure and that the bands are fairly new. If they are not then you may get line dump. It does happen, and it hurts. Don’t take my word for it. Read this from PD. >>>>>>> Of course he knows that free bags have locking stows. He was refering to the non-locking 'stows' on the new bags that don't use actual 'stows' The point he was making is that only the bag locking 'stows' or whatever 'stow' equivalent mechanism is used to lock the bag is important. The other 'stows' are only there to keep things orderly, not to avoid a hard opening.People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sundevil777 94 #23 October 30, 2003 QuoteBut the reverse is true for line dumps because a larger canopy has more 'instant drag' than a smaller canopy thus a significatly more forceful opening. I believe line dump in the PIA study may be refering to what Hook would call bag dump.People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Hooknswoop 19 #24 October 30, 2003 QuoteFree-bags are part of the reserve deployment process and are designed to not produce hard openings. The stow-less d-bag for main canopies is a different issue. People jumping them are experienced and jumping smaller canopies. The no-stow D-bag operates the same way a free-bag does. The lines play out under very little resistance from a pouch with only the locking stows holding the bag closed until line stretch pulls them out and opens the d-bag. The free-bag was designed for a quick opening. The PC doesn't have to pull lines out of rubber bands every 14-18 inches, slowing deployment. It only has a locking stow to prevent bag dump. QuoteIn your case you may have enough experience combined w/ jumping a smaller canopy to not get noticably harder openings good or bad. If I have 50 jumps or 5000 jumps makes zero difference on how the stows affect the opening. If I pack slider down and pull at terminal I will have a hard opening, jumpers numbers won't help. I have used the free bag on several canopies, from a Stiletto 97 up to a Safire 189 without the Velcro pouch-stowed lines causing any hard openings. As long as the bag stays closed until line stretch, it won't matter if the non-locking stows were held tight or loose in a pouch or free-stowed in the bottom of the main pack tray. Tight line stows are not necessary for soft openings. Only the locking stows are important. Derek Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
freebird185 0 #25 October 30, 2003 Thanks for clearing that up. Where can I learn about no-stow D-bags? Who makes them?If we trained monkeys to pack, would you jump their pack jobs? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
