Tigrikit 0 #1 February 12, 2004 Hi! So if a fresh A graduate jumped an elliptical canopy and did so very carefully, without any low turns, swoops, what-not - just a straight direct approach against the wind - what problems could be expected? This is a friend of mine who is currently jumping a rectangular canopy (Ozone) at 1:1 and has ordered a Katana because he has always been fascinated by it and I think is in love with it more than with me. He can't jump a lot because the weather here is ugly but is a total addict. Someone let him jump their crossfire once and he loved it. He is telling me he is going to jump rental till he gets enough experience ofr katana, but I don't think he will resist the temptation... What problems could be possibly anticipated, if he jumped it very conventionally at 1:1.6? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
yoink 321 #2 February 12, 2004 How much experience does he have? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
lazyfrog 0 #3 February 12, 2004 he must be very lightweight (I think actually the biggest Katana is 120). Perosnnally I wouldn't recommend it, and at our DZ he might not be be authorised to jump it.It's like letting someone who just finished his driving lessons go on the street with a Ferrari or something. If he was my friend I would certainly tell him not to.---------- Fumer tue, péter pue ------------- ourson #10, Mosquito Uno, CBT 579 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
webracer 0 #4 February 12, 2004 One of the biggest reasons that higher performance canopies are not recommended for lesser-experienced persons is not that they are not landable, it is that they react very quickly and with little forgiveness. This means that even a moderate turn done low can lose twice the altitude that a square can. 1.6:1 is a high wingloading, which greatly increases this characteristic. I could put an AFP grad of ours on a Velocity and if they follow the flight skills and flight plan we have taught them, they can land it without injury. The problem is when they encounter any type of hazard, or start modifying the flight plan in the sky. If they drift off course, then make a correction that is too extreme, they can be on the ground before they know it. Another thing that they would not expect is harness control. Harness shift has little if any effect on lightly loaded square or tapered canopies. On highly loaded canopies, it can be significant, and could contribute to CFIG if the operator doesn't realize it. (ie: My toggles were both up but I still turned into the ground) Many new users explain this characteristic as the canopy having a built-in turn, which is not the case. Hope this helps... my advice, keep him off the Katana. If you want to take it further, call PD and tell them of your case, they will not sell him the Katana if his experience level is not comesurate.Troy I am now free to exercise my downward mobility. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 7 #5 February 12, 2004 QuoteSo if a fresh A graduate jumped an elliptical canopy and did so very carefully, without any low turns, swoops, what-not - just a straight direct approach against the wind - what problems could be expected? Hoping that this is not a troll...(But I suspect it is) The problem is not the perfect day with the perfect winds and perfect spot... The problem is what happens if he finds himself in a less than ideal place and needs to make a choice...And he makes the wrong one. If he does make the wrong choice, or the right choice but to late under a canopy that is on the very high edge of his skills envelope...He could easily die. It is much safer to push the top edge on a canopy that is in your skill range, than be at the bottom of the min exceptable skill range of a higher performance canopy. Mistakes are less costly on a canopy that is in your skill range."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Pendragon 1 #6 February 12, 2004 Erm... why would you want to do that? Your "fresh A graduate" might get a little scared... Handling and performance would be very different; an experienced pilot would consider it "responsive"; a novice "twitchy" or "unpredictable". The loading that you are talking about is going to make a huge difference. How well did your friend land the Crossfire? What loading was it? Might have got away with it in certain conditions, but what if it's not so good (turbulence for example)? Would he be able to land it without hurting himself? How can someone develop the necessary skills if their canopy scares them? They might begin finding reasons not to jump...and eventually stop altogether (either through habit or injury!) Sure, I expect a Katana is quite exciting to fly. Personally, I'd love to get round to having a go - but I'm in no rush. Bearing in mind I'm a "B" licence holder (i.e. still inexperienced) although I'm a hang glider pilot as well, I use a basic F-111 PD170 loaded at about 1.0-1.1. I can spot land it; never worry too much about the conditions - allowing me to concentrate on my diving. When I have exhausted my canopy's performance range, then maybe I'll get another one. The thrill is great - but only if you're in control! Don't let your "fresh A graduate" wind up looking a fool...-- BASE #1182 Muff #3573 PFI #52; UK WSI #13 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Tigrikit 0 #7 February 12, 2004 He is nearing his 100th jump. He is not lightweight! About 190 lbs if I calculate right :) And yes he ordered a 120 Katana. His plan is just "to have it handy" until he has enough experience, but I don't think he will resist the temptation for long once he's got it. He tells me he'd open high and land straightly... and he doesn't listen to advice, or rather he does but sort of sheds it with a shrug. He nearly died five years ago when he fell from a 5 store building after that he thinks he is living on borrowed time it's complex and doesn't make much sense, i know Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
lazyfrog 0 #8 February 12, 2004 just tell him NOT to then.---------- Fumer tue, péter pue ------------- ourson #10, Mosquito Uno, CBT 579 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
grega 0 #9 February 12, 2004 Well if he won't listen to your advice "not to jump it yet", supply him with tons of articles, theory of how to fly and land a HP safely,... Do a search there's more then enough articles and threads already here on dz.com. Besides he shouldn't be let in the plane with that canopy on his back in the first place, if he's not trained to fly and land it."George just lucky i guess!" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Pendragon 1 #10 February 12, 2004 So he think's he'll look cool? He won't when he mucks up the landing... He shouldn't push so hard; he'll actually end up getting where he wants to be more slowly - and certainly more uncomfortably - than by being more sensible. Also, if he's having to justify himself in this way, he's certainly not ready for it! -- BASE #1182 Muff #3573 PFI #52; UK WSI #13 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pullhigh 0 #11 February 12, 2004 If everything you're saying is true and this is not just a troll.... If you want to do something for him, but him insurance, lots and lots of insurance. Oh, and get him to pre pay for his funeral as well. If he is what he says he is, he'll be broken up and/or dead not long after the canopy gets to him. I don;t know who he bought the canopy from, but I don;t think frommy experiences with PD that they would even sell it to him. Of course he could have lied, or gotten around the issues somehow. Ganja "Dead man walking" Rodriguez Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 7 #12 February 12, 2004 QuoteHis plan is just "to have it handy" until he has enough experience, but I don't think he will resist the temptation for long once he's got it. He will not wait, and like I said...No one ever plans on dying. So while he MIGHT (and thats a big might) be able to handle it if all things are perfect...The real world is not perfect...And he is fitting into the profile of the folks that get killed under canopy. The profile is: Around 250-500 jumps. Around a 1.5 wingload. Does not listen to advice and has been warned. So he fits perfectly in the recipie for DEATH. Quoteand he doesn't listen to advice, or rather he does but sort of sheds it with a shrug. Then since he will not listen, I sugest he gets his afairs in order. Have him make a will, a living will and have him tell his family and friends that he loves them...The way he is going, one of these days he is NOT going to be comming back from the DZ. (And I still think you are trolling)"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SkymonkeyONE 3 #13 February 12, 2004 Your friend has no business buying that canopy. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Tigrikit 0 #14 February 12, 2004 Hi! I am Igor Vasilyev, the one all the commotion has been raised about. Let me clarify a few things: 1) I finished AFF a year ago. Fresh graduate, eh? :P 2) I will have my 100th jump this weekend. 3) I did order a Katana 120. 4) I don't plan to jump it anytime soon. I happened to come into a little unexpected cash that I am investing in my dream rig - starting with the Katana. _Someday_ I will be able to jump it, right? The Crossfire was very nice and big - a 169, that's why we felt I could try it. I did it, but only once, and only because the conditions were nearly perfect (not something that happens often in Moscow). Looks like this cute somebody here by me is overly concerned and does underestimate my sense of reason and/or will it seems. :P And no, I love her a little more than skydiving. Just a little, though. :))) *hey she hit me* Thank you for the concern! It's one nice site you've got here! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Tonto 1 #15 February 12, 2004 QuoteAbout 190 lbs if I calculate right :) And yes he ordered a 120 Katana. I'll read about this one in the incidents forum. He's loading the same as I am on a 107, and I have 4000 dives. He's either going to be very talented, very lucky, or very dead. tIt's the year of the Pig. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 7 #16 February 12, 2004 QuoteI am Igor Vasilyev, the one all the commotion has been raised about. Let me clarify a few things: 1) I finished AFF a year ago. Fresh graduate, eh? :P 2) I will have my 100th jump this weekend. 3) I did order a Katana 120. 4) I don't plan to jump it anytime soon. I happened to come into a little unexpected cash that I am investing in my dream rig - starting with the Katana. _Someday_ I will be able to jump it, right? And if that "someday" is around jump # 300 .....You will still be in the "Danger Zone". I have 3,000 jumps and jump a 1.6 loaded Stiletto. I had over 700 jumps before I had a 1.6 load elliptical. If you plan on jumping that canopy any time soon...Get LOTS of canopy coaching. Before, and during...Understand that it WILL kill you even if you make a minor mistake. Hope you don't die."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pullhigh 0 #17 February 12, 2004 I guess all I can say is good luck dumbass. I hope you dn't dye, but unfortuneatley, you sound just dumbe enough to go off and kill yourself. I'm sure all your buddies will want to thank you in advance for what you're going to put them through. And if I were the DZO where you jumped, I'd be having you fill out your own damn fatalaty report and sending it with you to another DZ. I would not allow you to commit suicide on my airport. Ganja "Buy a shovel, dig your own grave" Rodriguez Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jimmytavino 16 #18 February 12, 2004 QuoteHe is nearing his 100th jump. He is not lightweight! About 190 lbs if I calculate right :) And yes he ordered a 120 Katana. ______________________________________________ .... c'mon.... this is a BAD mix.... too few jumps,,, too much weight... He should be wearing a 120 square foot canopy,,,,On Each Riser ________________________________________________ His plan is just "to have it handy" until he has enough experience, but I don't think he will resist the temptation for long once he's got it. _________________________________________________ He likey will NOT resist... may I inquire as to where you and he skydive(s) ???... big dz? small dz? It must be a place where 100 jumps is considered "expert" level... Please.....gimme a break.... before this dude gives HIMself a break,, ( or 3 or 4 ) ______________________________________________ He tells me he'd open high and land straightly... and he doesn't listen to advice, or rather he does but sort of sheds it with a shrug __________________________________________________ it's complex and doesn't make much sense, i know... ________________________________________________ It's NOT complex..... it's simple....In this sport you either mellow out and go easy,,,, therefore lasting a long long time.... Or you Flash and Sparkle, and blow through levels of competency so fast,,, that you absorb NOTHING..... and then you are gone,,, and you are some dude who people refer to by saying,,,,"don't do what this person did"..... take your pick....Play carefully,, and you can play for many many years..and become a guiding star in the sky. Play recklessly and take chances,,, and you are on the road to the longevity of a shooting star.... flash... and GONE..... This isn't hopscotch we're playing here,, friends... It's serious business,,, subtley disquised as the "most fun you ever had"....... yet with the proper attitde and approach... We CAN have fun for years and years and years...Ten Cuidado..... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mwabd1 0 #19 February 12, 2004 P.D. has no buisness selling him that canopy! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
IgorVasilyev 0 #20 February 12, 2004 Ok, let's try it with an account of my own. Can we refer to me not in the third person please? Makes me feel I am already gone. :P ------ He nearly died five years ago when he fell from a 5 store building after that he thinks he is living on borrowed time _____________________________________________ ..... Oh welll then THAT'S different!!! .. He apparently thinks he's superman... ------- This bit should never have made its way here. It's very personal. I prefer not to talk about it. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jimmytavino 16 #21 February 12, 2004 roger that.... my bad...no offense intended we WANT you in the here and now....that's the whole idea.... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
lazyfrog 0 #22 February 12, 2004 Hi Igor, what I mean is that a small canopy, specially a nice and fast one, can bring you to big trouble, specially if you have to land in unknown terrain, if winds are tricky etc... Always take the worse case into consideration.---------- Fumer tue, péter pue ------------- ourson #10, Mosquito Uno, CBT 579 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
The111 0 #23 February 12, 2004 QuoteP.D. has no buisness selling him that canopy! Why do people keep talking in these terms? As far as I know, PD doesn't sell canopies to skydivers. Dealers do. Right?www.WingsuitPhotos.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 7 #24 February 12, 2004 QuoteI guess all I can say is good luck dumbass. I hope you dn't dye, but unfortuneatley, you sound just dumbe enough to go off and kill yourself. I'm sure all your buddies will want to thank you in advance for what you're going to put them through. And if I were the DZO where you jumped, I'd be having you fill out your own damn fatalaty report and sending it with you to another DZ. I would not allow you to commit suicide on my airport. Damn....People think IM harsh, and direct... But I must say I agree and like it. Im gonna steal this part if its OK with you.Quoteif I were the DZO where you jumped, I'd be having you fill out your own damn fatalaty report and sending it with you to another DZ If it were not for my March of Dimes sig line right now...this would be there"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
IgorVasilyev 0 #25 February 12, 2004 I am. Not. Going. To jump. It. Until Dima (my instructor) tells me I can. But why for the hell of it I can't just possess it, I can not reason. Besides, I think it'll be the first, or one of the very few, Katana in Russia. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
