What will it take?

[weegegirl 2]

What will it take to get people to slow down, breathe, think, learn, and enjoy? Why are we, as a skydive community, so compelled to rush our progressions? What is stopping skydivers from being individuals and following their own, personal learning curves?

There have been a lot of accidents already this season. Most of which seam to be a result of rushing or pushing the limits too hard, too fast.

What can we as a community do to slow things down to a safer level?

Suggestions, comments, discussions...

[AggieDave 6]

We as a community can bring our concerns to our S&TAs, Head Instructors and DZOs about possible problem jumpers. Us as a community can't really do anything about someone, those individucals carry more weight then the average jumper, so they can possibly persuade problems jumpers to change. If not, they can always ground the jumper, or ground the jumper from jumping canopies too fast/small/etc for them.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[weegegirl 2]

It seams to me, that some DZOs and S&TAs are much more relaxed or uncaring than others. There are dropzones that will let a jumper just off student status buy a small, eliptical canopy... while other dzs keep close watch on students, intermediate jumpers, and even much more experienced jumpers. It just makes me sick every time I hear of a jumper with 100 jumps flying a high-performance canopy or trying to fly on their heads.

[AggieDave 6]

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S&TAs are much more relaxed or uncaring than others

If you see an S&TA letting something slide that seems unsafe or worst yet, a BSR or FAR violation, then you should really contact the Regional Director.

I think its about time that USPA members drop a sack and start using the S&TA chain of command to get it to do what it is supposed to be doing.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[happythoughts 0]

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It seams to me, that some DZOs and S&TAs are much more relaxed or uncaring than others.

I don't find that at all. The dzo or S&TAs just can't be everywhere. They don't watch every jumper land.

I very rarely find issues that need to be brought to their attention. When I do, they have always been concerned and responsive.

Have you voiced a concern and had it ignored?

[davelepka 4]

***What will it take to get people to slow down, breathe, think, learn, and enjoy?

=====================================

A miracle? A message from god? A valium? Am I close?

Here's a problem: This is skydiving, and it attracts people who want to jump out of a plane. Confident, athletic, fearless. These are the qualities that bring people to the DZ, but these are also the qualities that cause people to push the limits. Not everyone who jumps fits this profile, but most of the overly aggresive jumpers you are reffering to do.

The real problem is that the culture of skydiving doesn't really discourage this. There are some taboos in place that most will heed, but in general, higher performance is rewarded and repsected in this sport. The trouble with this is the line between an experienced jumper safely pushing the envelope and a newer jumper pushing their own envelope is a blurry one.

We do discourage some things; willfully downwinding a landing through a crowded landing area will get you some dirty looks, and some harsh words. This is why people don't readily do this. Tossing your PC out the door of the plane will get you loads of shit if you live long enough to hear it, and when was the last time you saw somebody do that?

Canopies and camera helmets have changed quite a bit in the last ten years. I started shooting video when mini DV cams were not around. My fellow jumpers wanted nothing to do with the full size camera and helmet I was jumping with, so I always shot the video. Once the mini Dv cams came around, everyone wanted one, and quite a few actually bought them. It opened the idea up to many jumpers who would never consider video with full size camera.

Cross braced canopies didn't even exist not too long ago, and swooping was not a sport, just something for the highly experienced jumpers. When the X-braced canpoies arrived, the previous HP canopies now seemed less HP, which is silly, because the Stiletto didn't change at all, but now it looked 'tame'. The more swoopers people saw, the more it was accepted, and the more info got out (via, I don't know, maybe the interent) the more people discounted it as common place, and some precived a reduced level of danger.

The basic idea is the the culture and the training in skydiving have not kept pace with the technology. It needs to stop being 'cool' to jump a small canopy. If jumpers were to voice neagtive attitudes, and refuse to jump with someone with too aggresive a WL, maybe newbies would more cafefully consdier their canopies. If it was common knowledge that you need 300 or 400 jumps to be safe with a camera, and that a jumper who wanted to ignore this would not be able to find anyone to jump with, they would drop the camera, as they would have no one to film.
These changes cannot happen overnight, but the sooner the attitudes change, the sooner the changes in the culture can begin.

Skydiving is tons of fun, and can be done with a good degree of safety, provided that people play by the rules. The more experience you have, the more those rules will open up to you. The caveat to this is that the more experience you have, the more respect you have for the rules, and they become less crucial as the jumper will typically make good choices, rules not-withstanding.

The trick is getting the newbies to follow the rules.

[MarkM 0]

If you're talking mainly about canopy WL, then I think this has mostly been a matter of changing attitudes. When I bought a 1.05 loaded canopy 4 years ago, it wasn't at all uncommon for new jumpers to start at a lot higher of a wing loading.

Heck, read this review of a Sabre2 from 2 years ago by Aggie: http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=148338;search_string=sabre2;#148338

He loaded a demo sabre2 150 at 1.43:1 with 140 or so jumps to his name and would've bought one if he had the money. If he posted that review here today the people would've ripped him a new one.

I took that Tri 160 I bought 4 years ago and still own to a DZ last weekend and had the owner caution me that it was aggressive for my experience level. Attitudes have changed in a lot of places, but don't expect miracles overnight.

[Ron 7]

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If you're talking mainly about canopy WL, then I think this has mostly been a matter of changing attitudes. When I bought a 1.05 loaded canopy 4 years ago, it wasn't at all uncommon for new jumpers to start at a lot higher of a wing loading

I disagree.

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He loaded a demo sabre2 150 at 1.43:1 with 140 or so jumps to his name and would've bought one if he had the money. If he posted that review here today the people would've ripped him a new one.

You sure people didn't rip him a new one? Maybe he just didn't listen...

Ask him now if he thinks 140 jumps at a 1.4 is a good idea...Hell, I'd like to hear his answer.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[TXBLKBEAR 0]

As you can see from my number of jumps I am a FNG in this sport of GODs.
One day at the DZ while coming in for a landing I made a 180 degree turn at about 800ft. I had about 45 jumps at the time. I didn't think the turn was too low but a camera flyer at the DZ was above me and thought so. When he caught up to me in the hanger he let me know what he thought. He called me LT for low turn and told me that he thought my turn was too low.
He didn't stop there, he asked me if I knew what a flat turn was. I told him I did but he asked me to demonstrate one for him.
I felt a little embarrassed because I had a friend at the DZ with me and he was listening to me sort of getting my ass chewed.
But I don't have thin skin and I did what this concerned Camera flyer wanted.
He then took 15 minutes of his time and pulled me to the side and showed me how to flat turn. He also explained to me why it was so important to know how to flat turn correctly and why I should practice it.
He told me to do it a few times as he watched.

This guy just took it upon himself because he was concerned about my safety. He didn't really know me. We talked a couple of times but thats about it.

He showed me much love. That is something I will never forget. Thanks Estillo!

Here is my 2 cents, for what its worth.

I think we can all take the time to tell another jumper what they are doing is not safe! If skydivers at the DZ take interest in what everyone else is doing and not be shy about telling someone that they are taking unnecessary risks that could hurt them and the sport it would help us all.

Help what?

Help set up an atmosphere of safety and responsibility for each other as a family. Maybe the person that is taking that chance feels that it's their life and they can shoulder the responsibility or the consequences for what they are doing.

But we all must be reminded from time to time that in this sport the actions of ONE could hurt us all.

Reading about safety in some magazine, the paper or on DZ.com is fine. But that doesn't mean as much as one of your friends or someone at your DZ that you see every weekend telling you about safety.

No one wants to let the team down. And when it comes down to it thats what we are, ONE BIG TEAM a FAMILY separated only by distance.

I would rather loose a friend by telling them straight out that they are dangerous and should think safety first, than loose them in an accident that could have been avoided. I'm sure everyone feels the same way. So lets say it.

Thats my 2 cents for what it's worth

J.R.

Airborne!

[weegegirl 2]

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It seams to me, that some DZOs and S&TAs are much more relaxed or uncaring than others.

I don't find that at all. The dzo or S&TAs just can't be everywhere. They don't watch every jumper land.

I very rarely find issues that need to be brought to their attention. When I do, they have always been concerned and responsive.

Have you voiced a concern and had it ignored?

No. I haven't voiced a concern until now, nor have I been ignored.

My DZO and S&TA are very safety-concious and aware of every jumpers limits at the dz. But, you are right, they cannot be everywhere all the time. But they work as a team and they are very sufficient in catching and guiding everyone.

However, it is reading endless incident reports of people under the wrong WLs, flying cameras or freeflying when they shouldn't be, or jumping in high and gusty winds that bothers me. The fact that I had someone tell me that they have seen their S&TA less than 10 times in 4 years. There are gaps out there. Not everywhere. But they are there. And every time I hear of a pottentially avoidable accident that has affected our community, it hurts.

That is my concern.

[ZoneRat 0]

The creation of a standardized, inexpensive, regularly available curriculum of canopy instruction is the only way I see to reduce those numbers. Those that want to learn high performance landings have precious few readily available avenues to safely, and systematically do so.

The Scott Millers, Laidlaw's and Brian Germain's of the sport have made a good start, but it's not enough.

Only after a standardized program has been established, undergone longitudinal study, and appropriate ammendment, will these numbers truly decline.

**********************
Until then, here's what YOU can do RIGHT NOW:

Until you are able to study high performance landings under a trained profesional canopy coach, Make the personal commitment:

"I WILL NOT be the next one to die or break because of a low turn."

Here's how:

1. Fly a conservative pattern.
2. Don't turn low for fun.
3. Don't put yourself in a postion where you are tempted to turn low to avoid an obstacle.
4. Learn this stuff whether you intend to downsize or not.
5. Respect strong or gusty winds.

Unfortunately, most lack the maturity and humility to stick to such a commitment.

Some will end up broken or dead upon the lawn.

Hopefully it won't be me.
Hopefully it won't be you.

“There are more things in Heaven and Earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in your philosophies.”

[WrongWay 0]

Here's the problem. Newbies are doing stupid things that endanger themselves and others, such as freeflying, jumping cameras, jumping canopies too small for them, ellipticals, etc.....

Here's the cause. They want to be "in with the cool kids". When somebody asks them "What're you doin on this dive", they wanna say "5-way HEAD DOWN BABY!!" instead of "Two way sitfly/belly". When someone asks them "What's in your rig", they wanna say "Stilletto 120" instead of "Triathlon 170". They like to hear stuff like "Bomber swoop dude" and "nice hook!". They want to be looked upon as a badass jumper instead of a responsible jumper. They don't realize that it's cooler to be responsible than being badass, and being truly badass only comes with being responsible for a very very long time.

Here's the solution. We need to sit down and explain to newer jumpers that just because they're not ready for cameras or head down or elliptical canopies doesn't make them bad skydivers, and we don't think any less of them for it. They're just not ready, YET. We need to explain to them that you don't have to go on bigway flocks to be a "cool kid", nor do you have to be swooping 300 feet under a hankerchief. They just need to be themselves, be safe, be responsible, listen to others more experienced than they are, and not be pressured to take on things they're not capable of handling consistently. It's all about the approach. Sure, telling them they're bad skydivers and convincing them they're stupid will make the quit altogether and save their life, but there's a better way. It's all about constructive criticism. Be honest and open with students and newbies, but don't talk down to them. Talk to them face to face, eye to eye, and express your concerns as a friend, not as a skygod. Newer jumpers (especially young ones like myself) for the most part immediately ignore anyone who yells at them or talks down to them because they sense that person as an authority figure being an asshole. Right or wrong, that's just how it is. But if a friend comes to them, talks to them as an equal on a personal level with their concerns, they will listen. We can yell and scream "What the fuck are you doing?!?!" until pigs learn to fly, but every time that happens, it falls on deaf ears. As I said, it's all about the approach.

Wrong Way
D #27371 Mal Manera Rodriguez Cajun Chicken Ø Hellfish #451
The wiser wolf prevails.

[GravityGirl 0]

I decided a long time ago, that "If I'm thinking it, I'm gonna say something."

Be proactive in your own community. Educate with a firm but positive attitude. Others will follow your lead. Positive energy is contageous. Be consistant.

New kids come along every day, thinking they already know better. But they too will one day learn. They will remember what you said and how you treated them. Then they'll pass it on.... and on... and on....

All it takes is for all of us to just "give a shit". Start with yourself. Compliment those around you who are doing a good job.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Peace and Blue Skies!
Bonnie ==>Gravity Gear!

[ChasingBlueSky 0]

Lead by example. If it isn't considered cool anymore, the newbies won't do it. It will take a few years, and a few more deaths....but if the newest generation of jumpers coming into the sport see how the mid-level experience are acting, that is how they will act for the most part.

I am more than happy to miss a jump if it will teach a lesson. There was a day that the winds were ok for my WL, experience, etc....but they were borderline for someone at 50 jumps. I saw two people gearing up that experience level - I walked up to them and mentioned if they saw the winds because they were enough for me to pull myself off the same load. I asked them if they thought they could handle it if I couldn't....and they in turn pulled themself off the load. Now the two of them are both very safe skydivers that also lead by example.

_________________________________________
you can burn the land and boil the sea, but you can't take the sky from me....
I WILL fly again.....

[VectorBoy 0]

Back in 1985 before fast canopys, Big ways (even small ways), cameras,wingsuits, freefly tubes, hell before freeflying as we know it today.Before widespread turbines I lost friends.

50% gear 50% human... error that is back in the day. And my day didn't start as early as some of the posters on these forums.

Less than 100 jumps and I was not going to get on any ( of the two overworked tiny cessnas we had working for the dz) of the DZ aircraft on a square, any square canopy, regardless where it came from, regardless of my experience. And I understood the square parachute much better than the round and proved it on my first square chute jump.

Gear has gotten soooooo much better! Ask our generous posters like Bill booth and other gear designers that have been around the block a few decades. I shiver at the thought of jumping nostalgic gear for fun personally, thats just me.You go ahead. The new stuff isn't just prettier its made to offset the stupidness in me. Proof: more people are getting hurt with perfectly good gear now. All kinds of jumpers with all kinds of experience on all kinds of gear.

Like Dave said skydiving attracts people and personalities from all walks of life. I have noticed the jumper who sweats every detail, is a ball of nerves the whole time to altitude even when they have high jump numbers. And know jumpers that never worry about the jump, are confident in their skills and conduct business with coolness. And this from all levels of actual skills and abilities not just the pros with high jump numbers.

I have noticed people that the same jumpers from all walks of life, all kinds of different experience levels and jump numbers get hurt or worse. Murphy doesn't care if you are new here or a skygod.

The only person that I really worry about is the person on the DZ that THINKS that they are somehow much safer than someone else based just on canopy or gear choice. This is so wrong! Remember the gear has gotten better. Its the human in the loop you have to watch out for.

Really let me take the Wuffo approach and ask you. You are jumping from altitude at painfully high speed and asking a few pounds of nylon and other synthetics to slow you down and together with your judgment and skills bring you to a stylish stop without injuring yourself on the many of the earths decorations. How safe do you really feel?

Bottom line weegegirl people will always get hurt in this sport. It is not golf it is not bowling. And even rugby is a sissy sport when you compare it to skydiving.

[happythoughts 0]

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Lead by example. If it isn't considered cool anymore, the newbies won't do it.

There is two levels to this problem.

First, the idea that it won't be "cool" is not going to happen. Ever seen the PD team? That is cool. Those guys are canopy artists. I would love to be that good, but I'm not. Very few are.

Second, this relates to the "very few are" comment. New people are trying to emulate a swooper. What they don't realize is that the swooper probably works at the dz and jumps every day. The swooper may do 900 jumps a year, not 150 like most weekend jumpers.

The pro swoopers are doing that every day and know their canopy really well.

[ChasingBlueSky 0]

I get what you mean - looking up to the "icons" in the sport - those that people aspire to be like, but probably will never have that skill level. Just like every kid on the basketball court thinks he is Jordan.

However, the kids on the court, and the kids in the air usually can recognize that they can't reach that level today, which is usually where they are focusing on. They tell themselves "maybe in a year or two I can get to be that good"....so they pick a target on the DZ, a jumper that is closer to them in experience (hey, that guy only has 600 more jumps than me, thats not that much) and tries to emulate them (if he isn't grounded during this weather, then I shouldn't be, he only has 4 more years of experience than me).

Yea, I have heard some newbies say the stuff above. Sometimes showing the newbie how safety aware you are will then have a direct influence on those insane thoughts that will get him or someone else hurt.

Leading by example won't stop all the idiots, but it will help out some.

_________________________________________
you can burn the land and boil the sea, but you can't take the sky from me....
I WILL fly again.....

[riggerrob 562]

Funny, this exact same problem landed in my lap yesterday. A guy with 70 jumps at a neighboring DZ, no license, no logbook, asked me to pack his new Tempo 120 into a shiny new Mirage. He expects his (Chute Shop SA) elliptical Hurricane 120 to arrive next week. I just packed the reserve IAW manufacturer's instructions.
Fortunately another instructor and manifest recommended a coach and decided to call the other DZ Monday morning.
What I want to know is: what idiot sold a guy with 70 jumps a tiny Stiletto clone?

[Beerlight 0]

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What can we as a community do to slow things down to a safer level?

Suggestions, comments, discussions...

- Fill in the swoop ponds
- Stop radical turns close to ground
- Set standard traffic patterns at every DZ
- Jump number determines size of canopy you can fly.
- Adhere to specific wind limits
- Have more than one safety day per year. oh, and make that mandatory


Somebody slap me..... uh, ok I woke up from my nightmare

[Ron 7]

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I get what you mean - looking up to the "icons" in the sport - those that people aspire to be like, but probably will never have that skill level. Just like every kid on the basketball court thinks he is Jordan.

However, the kids on the court, and the kids in the air usually can recognize that they can't reach that level today, which is usually where they are focusing on.

Every kid wants to "be like Mike". And if Bob can handle a St120 with 1,000 jumps surely I can handle it with 400 right?

Everyone thinks they are special. Everyone thinks they are safe...The ones filled with testosterone think they are cool.

The simple fact is that while very few jumpers are good enough, and current enough to jump a X braced...There sure are a lot of them selling.

The new guys want to be cool, so they buy the cool gear and skip the gear that will teach them safley.

Rememeber a Stiletto is OK for a guy with 20-30 jumps right? Well that same Stiletto was killing guys with 1,000 jumps 10 years ago. It is still as high performance as it was back then...Yes, the instruction is better (Some places better than others) but the air around SDC is not any better for flying a canopy, and the ground is not softer.

If a guy at SDC can handle a 1.4 loaded elliptical, whay can't I. Thats what the wannabes say.

The wannabes don't see the PRO swoop team and say "One day if I am careful and take my time I will be that good"...Nope they say "When I can get the Velocity...THEN I will rea;;y learn how to swoop."

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Sometimes showing the newbie how safety aware you are will then have a direct influence on those insane thoughts that will get him or someone else hurt.

Nah, most times they call you "uncool" or an "asshole" for trying to keep them from getting hurt since they are "better" than you were at that time..they say stupid shit like "Jump numbers don't matter" Uhn when it comes to landing a canopy...I can't think of a better indication of the ability to land a canopy than lnading a canopy...And last time I checked, there was only ONE landing per jump. And tunnel time may help a guy with 50 jumps skydive like a champ...But tunnel is not going to make them a better pilot.

The only answer is going to be have the USPA get off its lazy ass and put in some sort of regulation that MAKES people jump appropriate canopies unless they can PROVE they have above average skills...

Do I think this will happen? Do I think the USPA will do jack shit about protecting skydiving by getting involved and regulate this sport before lawsuits or legislation take its toll??? Nope. I think they would much rather have a cool new building, a museum, and the status and salary of a DC lobyist.

Private Airports are going to be the only place we will be able to jump in 20 years...Insurance requirements are already taking their toll on small DZ's. Is the USPA doing anything about it? Nope.

The FAA is going to wonder why most deaths in this sport are people taking a perfectly good wing and by pilot error getting killed. They are going to wonder why we let anyone jump anything when the FAA will not let some newbie pilot fly a HP plane without additional training.

Goverments are going to pass laws that restrict skydiving around public areas for fear that someone is going to hurt someone.

The AOPA does a good job of fighting for pilots rights...The USPA does shit.

If we don't start doing something, if we don't MAKE the USPA do something...Others will, and the sport as we know it will not exist.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[SkydiveNFlorida 0]

It seems to me that your original post was a bit contradictory of itself. I feel that this statement should be taken a bit more seriously than it is. :

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What is stopping skydivers from being individuals and following their own, personal learning curves?

What is stopping skydivers from following their own, personal learning curves? I would assume it would be people who assume that everyone's learning curves should be equivalent. Some of these people did things quickly and think everyone else should be able to as well... but this is generally not the case. Generally, people who do things quickly seem to warn others that what they have done may not have been the smartest thing to do. I think the worst people are those who went slowly and feel that everyone else had better do the same or else they will end up dead. Just because your (not directed at anyone in particular) progression went at x pace, does not mean that everyone elses should.

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It just makes me sick every time I hear of a jumper with 100 jumps flying a high-performance canopy or trying to fly on their heads.

That's a sucky way to feel about it. I'm sorry that you don't feel open-minded enough to accept that SOME people are able to fly on their heads at 100 jumps, and some people do have the ability to fly hp canopies because they seek the appropriate training.

I respect your opinion, Liz. I just thought i'd point out the contradiction here, because I do agree with the part about people having their own learning curves. I am certainly not saying that every jumper is ready to fly on their heads and FLY a hp canopy at 100 jumps, but there will always be some who are able. And others who will never be.


Zonerat wrote:

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The creation of a standardized, inexpensive, regularly available curriculum of canopy instruction is the only way I see to reduce those numbers. Those that want to learn high performance landings have precious few readily available avenues to safely, and systematically do so.

The Scott Millers, Laidlaw's and Brian Germain's of the sport have made a good start, but it's not enough.

bingo! Everyone should get GOOD basic canopy skills in their jump program! It is a shame that we have to take "essential skills" courses offered after AFF, such as the one taught by Scott Miller. Understand that I am not insulting this course, I took it at 30 jumps and feel that it is absolutely necessary. But, I think that this is something that everyone should get, mandatory. Not optional! Courses like the ones offered by Brian Germain about parachute flight, hp landings, etc are awesome, and I feel there should be more of them available for people interested in them. But essential skills courses should not be after-market add-ons... they are just as important as learning to throw your pilot chute and should be included in your student progression!!

Angela.

[happythoughts 0]

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I am certainly not saying that every jumper is ready to fly on their heads and land an hp canopy at 100 jumps, but there will always be some who are able.

I've never met one. Regardless of canopy training, mental attitude, rigging skill, anything. Never met one.

[SkydiveNFlorida 0]

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I am certainly not saying that every jumper is ready to fly on their heads and land an hp canopy at 100 jumps, but there will always be some who are able.

I've never met one. Regardless of canopy training, mental attitude, rigging skill, anything. Never met one.

Just because you have never met one, doesn't mean they aren't out there. And, maybe you HAVE met one, but just didn't know it.

OPEN YOUR MINDS, PEOPLE! Everything is not black and white... there are gray areas.

I'm not going to argue about this with you all, because we all know I catch hell on this board because I haven't followed the "standard" progression. And, anyone who strays from the norm (ie, what you all feel is right) here is ostracized by your group. But, I just wanted to post MY opinion on the matter.

Take care, i'm out.
Angela.

[billvon 2,473]

>And, anyone who strays from the norm (ie, what you all feel is right)
>here is ostracized by your group.

Cause many of us feel that giving someone shit is better than letting them die.

[happythoughts 0]

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OPEN YOUR MINDS, PEOPLE! ...I'm not going to argue about this with you all

A rare opportunity. Most people use at least two sentences to contradict themselves.