Straight to freeflying....

[Newbie 0]

For the sake of you and your loads jumpers safety, please ensure you stay off the jump run line, or jump with a free fly coach instead of trying things by yourself.

If you don't know which way jump run is, you shouldn't be getting out the plane IMO.

These comments are directed to all new freefliers.
Getting out to try a sit is fine but understand you can be tracking all over the place.

"Skydiving is a door"
Happythoughts

[CanuckInUSA 0]

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For the sake of you and your loads jumpers safety, please ensure you stay off the jump run line

And your comments are even more relevant for the up and coming headdown freeflier. It is so easy to be zooming across the sky without even knowing it (much easier than when you're in a sit). So for the new headdown freeflier, exit in a sit, align yourself perpendicular to the flight line and then transition to headdown. And never spend more than 5 seconds headdown when you are still learning during these ever so important solo jumps.

Try not to worry about the things you have no control over

[Newbie 0]

Well said.

IMO you shouldn't even be trying hd until you have got full control in a head up position and you know you can fall down the tube sitting/standing.

When I DO try hd you better believe it will be with a coach/HIGHLY experienced ff'er.

"Skydiving is a door"
Happythoughts

[webracer 0]

SkydiveChicago is now recommending 100 belly jumps before going to freeflying. Many have gone straight to freeflying, where organizing is not such an issue, and jumping by yourself is much more challenging/entertaining. These folks only turn to their belly at pull-time, which is a shame. Belly jumps can be fun and quite challenging, SDC has a renewed effort to show this aspect of the sport to recent graduates.

Troy

I am now free to exercise my downward mobility.

[ianmdrennan 2]

I'm sure I'll get crap from some of those who didn't wait for saying this but BRAVO!

I support the idea 100%.

Blue skies
Ian

Performance Designs Factory Team

[NoShitThereIWas 0]

My opinion is that you should not try to go to the Dark Side until you are an experienced Jedi

Roy Bacon: "Elvises, light your fires."

Sting: "Be yourself no matter what they say."

[rehmwa 2]

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My opinion is that you should not try to go to the Dark Side until you are an experienced Jedi

Good point, CrW is not for the faint of heart.

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[sdgregory 0]

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Parts of your post were really scary.

Which parts and why? This statement just hangs there.

[Tonto 1]

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Which parts and why?

Bear in mind I'm probably looking at this from a "Dad" point of view - having been where you are - and having survived. I don't mean to criticise in any way, and it may be that I simply am easily scared.

So... Which parts...

Because of the whole fall rate thing you may pend a day just trying to hook up.

This indicates you've not yet mastered fall rate in the relativly benign environment of FS

tried to RW with people several times. Never more than a 5-way.

Bigger is not better. It increases the variables beyond your control, and reduces your amount of flying. On a 2 way you do 50% of the work. On a 5 way only 20%. Until you master basic skills, you're wasting your time and other peoples money.

ne wants to spend the time jumping with you in four way if they can't get a point turned all day.

That's cos they know you, or the group, is not ready. You may well find someone to do a 2 way with though, and it's likely that that dive would be more successful at best, and piss fewer people off at worst.

leaves you to coached jumps or solos.

You go into why you shouldn't do solo's, but not why you should do coach dives. There's got to be a reason for that..

how can you get proficient at belly without someone to jump with?

Back to the 2 way... or hire a coach?

that I can do it solo and have fun, and I can find people to do it with fairly easily.

People who will teach you what?

that it can be put together fairly quickly.

This is scary. Planning dives on the way to the plane. I don't think any team of any disipline in the world does this. You shouldn't either.

"What's your audible set at?"

"5000, 4000, and 2500."

"So break at 5, pull by 4?"

"Works for me."

This is scary. At 200mph, you're doing 1000ft every 4 seconds. Breaking at 5 and pulling at 4 gives you 4 seconds to get both horizontal seperation, and slow down to the more docile terminal winds your gear was designed to handle. It simply cannot be done.

if the train funnels, who cares because it's freeflying and we can stay relative easily

Scary.. cos you just told us you can't do this flat, but you beleive you can do it in a position widely acnowledged to be dynamically unstable.


you can do stupid funny moves and laugh and basically just PLAY in the air. Docking, burble hopping, flipping, spinning, the whole jump completely improvised on the spot.

Scary. It's the burble hopping that got me here as I've seen plenty prematures.. and you're gambling your life and the life of your jump partner that it won't happen while you're hopping the burble. Yes, 4 way teams burble hop. Usually they have 100's of dives together - and they weigh the risk against the clock of competition. What's your reasoning?


Setting up a two way freefly team however was not so hard.

And nor would a coach jump be so tough.


Getting a coach/camera man was easy too. Now we only need to coordinate three shedules rather than 5 or 6 and we can work with the coach individually till we get our sit together and use the times when we can all get together to learn how to fly as a team.

This is very positive. I hope you learn tons, and that you enjoy your dives both in training and in competition. I don't mean to deride your efforts to have fun jumping in any way, and I don't want to tell you how stupid I was when I was young. I was just real lucky, in retrospect.

t

It's the year of the Pig.

[sdgregory 0]

You make some strong points.


As far as freeflying I never jump in more than a two way. I only sitfly, and I only jump with experienced jumpers. That is where the staying relative is easier because few experienced people will jump RW with newbies in two way but tons of experienced freefliers will jump 2 way with us newbies. Therefore staing relative is easier because you are jumping with someone who makes it easy on you. (Read that as probably doing more work).

Each experienced person I jumped with freefly has alos given pointers after the jump to help me improve my stability, turning and fall rate.

AS far as "5000,4000,2500" I pulled numbers out of the air there and yes you are right it usually takes me more than 1000 feet to turn dive, track arch and pull.

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leaves you to coached jumps or solos.

You go into why you shouldn't do solo's, but not why you should do coach dives. There's got to be a reason for that..

I was implying that some of us get tired of coach jumps. They aren't as fun. They cost more. Yes I know you can make more progress with a coach in less jumps but sometimes they are more like work than fun.

Now in a team setting yes I will do them. Currently I am in the process of using a coach for my sit and so is my team-mate. We have no intention of getting in the air together until both our coaches feel we are safe and stable and in control enough to fly together without hurting each other.


But yes I have definitely put dives together (with experienced jumpers only) on the way to the plane. Again the conversation I described was way oversimplified, partly for brevity, partly to loss of focus do to typing and retyping.

[FunBobby 0]

Hmm. I seem to remember reading something about this in another thread....

From ChasingBlueSky:

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I've always been saying that jumers should not attempt freefly until they have a firm foundation in RW. Even as A coach I get laughed at....

Two of the best freeflyers that I know - Rook and Missy Nelson - both preach this.

Here is that thread, by the way.

Well, I don't know them personally, but if its true that Rook and Missy Nelson, 2 of the very best freefliers in the world advocate having a good foundation in RW before starting freeflying . . . hmmm. That's a pretty strong statement.

Care to comment, Bo?

FunBobby

[packerboy 3]

I think that as long as you have freefly compatible gear, and you learn and comply with the safety implications of freefly implicitaly (corking, group seperation, drifting on the line of flight), why the heck not?

Just learn how to learn safely, but I guess that is alot easier from a Cessna than a Caravan. So I guess it would depend alot on how many people are in the sky with you....

--------------------------------------------------
In matters of style, swim with the current; in matters of principle, stand like a rock. ~ Thomas Jefferson

[rocketdog 0]

THE ANSWER IS EASY: do whatever seems fun (within reason )

First, you need to be proficient & safe (i.e. good @ tracking no matter what discipline). Also, I know chest mounts can get caught in your burbel (sp?) so I would recommend having a visual & aduible altimeters.... basic safety things like that

Trying to sit-fly doesn't mean you have to freefly every jump. Become good @ both, or really work @ 1 particular discipline.... feel it out!

~hollywood

see the world! http://gorocketdog.blogspot.com

[andyflylife 0]

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THE ANSWER IS EASY: do whatever seems fun (within reason

I think your right! Some people including me get all worked up about what they can and cant do in skydiving with different rules and reg's...I try and remember its all about having a great time.
I'm still a newbie but with the right advice, kit and an AUDIBLE alti (a must) ive started freeflying. If your responsible enough to jump out of planes then i think you should no what your capable of in the sport and no whats safe to be doing at your level!!
Blue skies

"swooper 24/7, 365!"
ME on Myspace
My Project playlist

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[Zoter 0]

Agreed.....sometimes being focused 'too' much can be counterproductive.
Example....learning to sitfly
Yip...got all the brief stuff in my head...90degs off the run in line....ball up if I fall offf the sit....and I am so concious about backsliding that when I go up with a coach...and Im falling straight down...Im so worked up about NOT backsliding that its obvious to him and all...im not fully relaxed...and yet I know how to relax in that position ( and that IMHO makes me unsafe)

Keep the safety aspects in ya mind ...all the time...but dont let them overtake you so badly that thats all you think about.....as long as they are ther and you understand them...you'll know when they are being breached...IMHO

(Edited to add: when learning, as a minimum...despite how good you may think you are get a coached jump..periodically....just to keep you on track and iron out those bad habits before they set...)

[RkyMtnHigh 0]

At my dz, they have a rule that for tracking or newbies learning to freefly: keep the mountains on your left. If you cork, then get stable and realign. I inform others on my load my intentions on the jump and so far have had an RW group go before me, with plenty of separation, the me, then a JM to offer more separation before the AFF students and tandems. So far, it's worked. I'm not sure however how it'd work if I don't have the mountains as a reference.

_________________________________________

[sunman 0]

I'd say get about 100 jumps or so on your belly first. You should be good enough to do a four point four way fairly consistantly with people of equal or greater skill, you shouldn't be flailing all over the place, and you should be a pretty heads-up skydiver. Then start freeflying. That's just my opinion.

[kelel01 1]

I started attempting to sit at around 60 jumps, and then I decided that I needed to go back to my belly and be proficient there first. I am still flying on my belly and will continue to do so for a while.
Now, the reason I tried sitflying is not what many people think it would be. I was not trying to hang with the "big boys", or experienced skydivers. I was trying to hang with the 30-jump people who were already flying sit and head down. This is one reason I wish newbies wouldn't freefly. Also, two newbies freeflying together can spell DISASTER very quickly. I wish people would quit being in such a rush.

Kelly

[goose491 0]

I don't understand why one discipline has to preceed the other in a from of progression. I don't agree with the 'learning to walk before learning to run' analogy... to me it's more like asking someone to learn to ski before learning to snowboard. It doesn't work like that, it's two different disciplines and where it's great to be proficient at both, I see no reason not to jump right into freeflying with a reasonable progression in mind.

Belly to Earth is Belly to Earth and Sit flying is Sit flying. True you can get the feel of the air on your belly before 'progressing' to sit... Skiing can give you the balance required to learn snowboarding... but I don't agree with people saying "when it all goes to shit, Belly to Earth is your saving grace." We all know that if a freeflyier starts experiencing stability issues, the LAST thing he/she wants to do is go to belly... Sit is the 'saving grace' or balling up is the 'saving grace'. Otherwise, it's called 'corking' and it's very very dangerous.

You should be able to fall stable on your belly, GET stable on your belly when you are not, make controlled turns and be able to get where you're going in terms of levels with another jumper... that's it IMO before learning the right body position for a good sit.

My Karma ran over my Dogma!!!

[kelel01 1]

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be able to get where you're going in terms of levels with another jumper... that's it IMO before learning the right body position for a good sit.

See, but that's the thing I think most people skip over. 99% of people off AFF can get/stay stable on their bellies, but as for staying relative with other jumpers, I think a lot of people don't work on that. I also think bellyflying helps you quicken your reaction time in a safer, slower environment, which can be oh-so important in the higher speeds of freeflying.

Kelly

[cutaway1 3]

There is alot of great information in many of the posts, but, and this is very inportant, when you begin to learn to freefly or sit. TRIPLE CHECK YOUR GEAR, over the past several years I've seen several new freeflyers with pilot chute showing, loose bridles and the like, a few of them have prematurly deployed resulting in broken ribs and worse. You can get away with that in RW, but not in freefly, keep everything tight and secure. My personal opinion is that you should learn rw first, if for no other reason, then to learn precision and accuracy in movement, to learn precise control. So many people zoom around and think they can freefly when actually they are not really in control of their movement, and midairs are very dangerous. I started freeflying, after decades of rw, by making several hundred 2 way sit dives with the same person, I think thats the way to go for the sake of progress and safety. If rw is not challenging enough, try to do very good leg locks, a blind move which takes alot of skill and practise-and have a blast on every jump.
Blue skys,
Tim

SCR-21

[billvon 2,476]

> to me it's more like asking someone to learn to ski before learning to snowboard.

I think it's more like learning how to use the ski lift before you learn to do either. Every skydive ends with a belly deployment; you cannot skip belly flying by saying you will only freefly.

>You should be able to fall stable on your belly, GET stable on your
> belly when you are not, make controlled turns and be able to get
> where you're going in terms of levels with another jumper...

And track well, and sideslide to some degree, and pull off a stable exit from almost any position. Once you can do all that (say, 50-100 jumps) then there's no problem heading off to freefly. But you have to get the basics down first.

[Reginald 0]

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***Unfortunately, trying to find people to do four way with is not easy at 71 jumps.

Because of the whole fall rate thing you may spend a day just trying to hook up. And that's if you can get the more experienced jumpers to jump with you after the first time. Face it, many of you guys with experience don't find jumping a four way that doesn't hook up until the fourth jump very exciting.

So why are you trying to get highly experienced RW guys to jump with you? Why not get a group of low timers together and start a 4 way “team”? This gives you people to practice with and gives you all a chance to improve. Yes the fall rate thing is critically important and if you are jumping with the same group of low timers each week you resolve this in short order. Then you can start working on basic 2 way skills (with cross-matched partners) and then on basic 4 way. Unless you are at a small DZ there should be no shortage of low timers to learn RW with. Why do I say all of this? Because it’s exactly what I am doing. It’s interesting that the big time RW guys at the DZ are seeing us low timers working together and have volunteered lots of time to help teach us.

"We've been looking for the enemy for some time now. We've finally found him. We're surrounded. That simplifies things." CP

[sdgregory 0]

Tried that. I cannot get four people together who are interested in doing 4-way. Many of the new guys have started Freefly, and of those that do RW, they are getting on the always available big ways.

And if you can find four new folks who want to do RW, few of them want to do it bad enough to organize a schedule to get together. IF you found that, I congradulate you. It is not easy to find.

If you continue to read the rest of my post you would see this very explanation.