being an old timer (long)

[PhreeZone 15]

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But the downside to the sport getting more popular is when the beamers start to show up in the DZ parking lot those people are going to feel entitled to good gear, experienced pilots and safe planes. Of course, the DZs at that point should be making enough money to support all of that.

Your average DZ makes about $4-5 profit off of an experienced jumpers ticket. That Profit has to cover all the non airplane bills. Students are the lifeblood of the income at a DZ. It takes 20 jumps to make the same profit as one tandem student. But those 20 jumps cause a headache for the DZO. First jumpers want a bigger Cessna, then they want a turbine, then they want a twin turbine, then they want a better hanger, better landing area's, swoop ponds, on site restraunts... thats all demanded for that $4 profit.

I'm a relative newbie, starting in 1999 (5 years... yicks!) but I've already seen some changes. When I started the Spectre was only out for a year and a half and everyone was still saying it was an advaced canopy and not a great first canopy... I was told to get something like a Falcon or similar. I went with the Spectre since it was getting great reviews on here. Now the Spectre is the first canopy recommended and even the Sabre2 is used for students at some places.

I think that Dropzone.com has also slightly changed skydiving. Before DZ.com jumpers would either ask questions to others at the DZ, or the questions would go unasked. This was good and bad. Good in that they were going to the best source usually for canopy questions, their instructors. Bad in that they were being exposed to a very limited opinion base. DZ.com came along and offers the chance to ask any question you want and to read everyones opinion about it too. This also has good and bad points. Good in that some of the replies are coming from the people at the bleeding edge of the sport and are experts, but bad in that people that have no idea the true answer are some times thought of as experts and worth listening to, and also bad in that people are reading and asking questions before they are ready for the answers. At a DZ people can wait till A licence jumpers are out of the room before explaining the art of doing high proformance landings, on here everyone can read it at any time. This has created an entire group of "book smart" jumpers that never existed before. They can tell you things about hook turns and gear, but have no idea what it actually means, just what they read.

Yesterday is history
And tomorrow is a mystery

Parachutemanuals.com

[diverdriver 5]

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part of that might be better training(getting my A today is a lot more involved than when I started in 2000 and I don't believe a coach rating existed then), and part of it could also be a lower tolerance of certain risky behaviors.

Yah, we were called Jump masters back then.

[skybytch 259]

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I wouldn't be suprised if at some point skydiving doesn't become as popularized as snowboarding or skiiing. I personally wouldn't mind that at all, because prices would likely stay low and it'd mean more places to jump and more ways of jumping.

The day skydiving is as popular as snowboarding is the day I sell my gear and find a new career - because that's the day that the sport will completely be overrun with people who believe they are "entitled" to anything.

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heck, we got a heli coming to my home DZ in a week or so, how many times back in the old days did you get to do heli jumps?

I did a helicopter jump at a one-Cessna dz in 1990. We did them every year.

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But the downside to the sport getting more popular is when the beamers start to show up in the DZ parking lot those people are going to feel entitled to good gear, experienced pilots and safe planes.

Good point. If someone is sold Disneyland, then that's what they expect. When I started jumping I was sold Death Valley, so that's what I expected.

With all the advances in gear, improvements in most dz facilities, increase in number of turbine aircraft... it's still Death Valley. That hasn't changed, and likely never will. Selling skydiving as Disneyland is a big part of why many jumpers today have attitudes about their safety that are imho at the least naive and at the worst dangerous to the future of skydiving as a legal and lightly regulated sport.

[MarkM 0]

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Your average DZ makes about $4-5 profit off of an experienced jumpers ticket. That Profit has to cover all the non airplane bills. Students are the lifeblood of the income at a DZ. It takes 20 jumps to make the same profit as one tandem student. But those 20 jumps cause a headache for the DZO. First jumpers want a bigger Cessna, then they want a turbine, then they want a twin turbine, then they want a better hanger, better landing area's, swoop ponds, on site restraunts... thats all demanded for that $4 profit.

What about gear rental, coaching, video, bunks?

What if in the future you end up with a class of yuppie jumpers that only jump a couple weeks a year as a vacation, sort of like ski resorters. They'd rent all their gear(rig, altimeter, goggles, helmet), always need refresher coaching when they showed up, etc. Could the sport support that or would it just be too dangerous because of the lack of currency?

Is skydiving just limted to 1 jump tandemers and people who show up at the DZ at least once a month or will it expand into other types of jumpers?

[riggerrob 558]

billvon,
You young pup. I started skydiving 27 years ago, back before most of the equipment you mentioned was invented.
My first static-line jump was in 1977, wearing a 28 foot diameter, military surplus, white, main C-8 canopy and a chest-mounted reserve.
I remember the DZO telling - freefall student - me to quit being such a wimp and give the reserve with the AAD to a first-jump student.
I still have a scar on my face as witness to all the hard pulls and unstable openings caused by 4-pin main ripcords.
A couple of years later, I had 50 jumps and was looking to buy my own gear. Most of the senior jumpers recommended putting 300 jups on a Para-Commander class canopy before contemplating a square. My 1 1/2 jumps on a Cross-Bow (Para-Commander copy) convinced me that I did not want one of those and a Papillon - that I was considering - suffered some burns the week before I was willing to plunk down the money.
I was considered radical when I made my 51st jump on a (square) Strato-Star. The Strato-Rock may not have performed much better than a Para-Commander, but it sure was more reliable.
I can remember lusting after Strato-Clouds Cruiselites and putting hundreds of jumps on both models.
I remember feeling like a hypocrite when I became an instructor back in 1982. Here I was jumping my Strato-Cloud, with a belly-band mounted pilotchute while my students were still jumping military surplus gear.
I remember being mighty proud when our DZ bought all new piggyback rigs for students. I also remember an FXC 8000 saving the life of a student who was not bright enough to operate an S.O.S.
I remember when the Pegasus, Cruislite, Vector !, SST Racer, Rapid Transit, Mirage, Talon, Javelin, Spectra suspension lines, Tube Stows, ZP fabric, Cypres, etc. were introduced.
I remember driving myself to the point of exhaustion to earn a rigger's rating back in 1984 and being pleasantly surprised at how easy the Master Rigger test was in 1996.
I remember when tandem was introduced at the 1984 Canadian Nationals and doing my first tandem jumps trapped to Rob Laidlaw's chest. And I remember earning my tandem rating a couple of years later in Strassbourg. .. working for the worst Nazi in the German skydiving business and thinking that he was 1/10 as bad as my Air Force bosses.

I remember thinking in the spring of 1992 "I'll just teach skydiving for the summer, then get a real job." and 12 years later still doing the same job.

I remember Theresa Baron's screams when she heard of the Beech 18 crashing in Hinkley, Illinois and becoming far more careful about which airplanes I boarded.
There are many things that I cheerfully jumped in my ill-spent youth that now gather dust in the corner of my loft.

Real skydivers don't sue.

[billvon 2,400]

> I don't think some whuffo would pick up a magazine, see an ad for
> a shiny rig, and want to start skydiving because of it. As far as I
> know, people jump because they want to.

Think of those cards you see in airports, showing a smiling tandem pair with the caption "Extreme sports made easy! Come to the Knoblock Skydiving Center and experience the thrill of skydiving at 120 miles per hour with our state of the art, fully FAA, USPA and PIA approved skydiving school!" You see them in newspaper ads, magazines, and on racks at airports.

People jump because they want to. But many people show up at DZ's now expecting the safe amusement park ride they were promised by the flyer, rather than realizing they're doing something that's, well, really pretty dangerous.

[wmw999 2,121]

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billvon,
You young pup. I started skydiving 27 years ago, back before most of the equipment you mentioned was invented

What he said. To me one of the biggest differences is between what was considered "safe" then and now, and how what was very acceptable in the past is now, not just outdated but seen as unacceptable.

Wing loadings on squares of less than 1:1 were very common. Landing backing up was a standard skill. Landing off the dropzone, and navigating congested landing areas because of that were all normal parts of skydiving. They're dangerous now; not just because they're a little more dangerous, but because people don't do them, practice them, or think about them until they're in the middle of a situation.

There are new skills to deal with, enormously complex ones, with the faster canopies. To me, that's a much more complex skill set than landing off the DZ. To me (from the days of less-reliable canopies), dumping my reserve is just not that big a deal (well, except for the losing the freebag part ).

But things change. I guess to accomodate the newer skill sets, some of the older ones are eroding. People don't learn Latin and Greek as a standard part of a classical education any more either.

I think the point of this is that you're in charge of yourself, and your skills. You're in charge of determing what's most important to learn and keep in your current skill set. And that will change -- the old timers have to figure out what skills to retire, and the newbies will have to bear with us when we tell you that jumping rounds was more fun than not jumping rounds.

Wendy W.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[PhreeZone 15]

>What about gear rental, coaching, video, bunks?

Gear rental - depends on the rental system but most rental gear gets abused more then regular gear and needs replaced sooner so more of the cost goes into future maintence. Coaching - $60-70 - 20 for your lift, 20 for the coaches, $10-15 to the coach. Thats about $5-15 profit to the DZ. Video? $75- 20 for the lift, 20 to the videoflyer, 5 for supplies. $30 profit. Bunks? It takes a lot of renting bunks to pay for a $5-20k building.

How many of those yuppie Skiiers try and do Black Diamond runs on their first run of the new season? How many of those go to the hospital? Most my friends tha have hurt them selfs skiing did it after long layoffs on too agressive of runs. Every skydive break is like that first run being a black diamond...

One other change I've seen in 5 years is the rise of the resort style experience at DZ's. They are bringing in other activities to keep people occupied. Some have things like Windtunnels and other have horses and canoes to rent.

Yesterday is history
And tomorrow is a mystery

Parachutemanuals.com

[bravoniner 0]

Good thoughts, Bill.

My perspective (having cut my teeth in the era of surplus "cheapos," 2-shot Capewells, and chest-mounted twill[!!] reserves) is that very little in the way of improved gear or bigger and better jump ships is likely to fully counteract the apparently innate tendency among some to push any resulting expansion of the "envelope" to find new and improved ways to kill themselves. Unless and until we take high speeds (and the attendant risk of lethal sudden stops) out of the game, it will always be so.

Bravoniner

[Mak 0]

Look up "risk homeostasis" on google or similar. The equipment might have become 10x reliable, but the fatality/injury rates have not matched that improvement. That's what Bill and Ron are trying to convey in the AAD threads - we're taking risks we would not normally take because we have AADs, hence the injury/fatality rates have not tracked the improvements in gear/training.

[MajorDad 0]

Nice Post Bill,

It made me think about my first rig many moons ago. I did abour 200 jumps on my DC-5 before I got my PD-210 for a good price. It sure taught me how to spot.

Only one more month of snow until the Stilleto flies again.

Major Dad
CSPA D-579

[amy 0]

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In this case, if the DZO knew the reserve was out of date, or that the prop was faulty, these are clear cases of negligence.

Perhaps. The waiver does say, however, that you won't sue them even if they're negligent.

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If five people die in a Cessna 182 crash, and the DZO admits (for whatever reason) that he knew the plane was unsafe, how can anybody conscientiously say he shouldn't be held responsible?

Did the people in the airplane know that it was unsafe? If they did, then suing the DZO seems a little silly.

I think that part of what has changed in the last 10 years or so is the illusion of safety. Let's face it, if you went to a little Cessna DZ a decade ago, it was probably populated by grizzled guys who smelled of cigarettes and god-knows-what-else, sitting on couches so ragged that no self-respecting fraternity would allow them in its basement. You put on your sun-faded rig, and your jumpmaster turned on the AAD that he had told you was almost as likely to fire at the wrong time as it was at the right. Then you climbed into a cramped little plane that had been gutted before the holes and sharp metal were covered in duct tape, and everyone leaned forward on takeoff to keep the CG far enough forward that it could struggle into the air.

If you saw all of this and thought that what you were doing was safe, you had to be crazy (no, I'm not saying all DZs were like this, but an awful lot were). But you also had to be crazy to think that someone would take care of you, and that meant that everyone made the decision to take responsibility for themselves before they jumped. It's hard to claim that the DZO should be held responsible when you knew what you the risks you were taking, and jumped anyway.

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As long as they take proper precautions, then I find absolutely no reason for a DZO to ever worry about civil litigation.

It happens. A lawyer sued Perris after he flew his reserve into power lines, and this after some very heads-up AFF JMs saved his life. Lawsuits like that come from people who believe that someone should (and will) protect them from themselves, even after they've jumped out of an airplane.

You can do everything right in this sport and still die. It says so in the waiver, it says so on the orange label, and any skydiver who's being honest with himself will tell you that. The DZO, rigger, and gear manufacturer can all do everything right, and you can still die.

But I think we've been over this in another thread.

Amy

[geronimo 1]

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Sometimes when I read these threads I feel really old.

Jump, and accept the responsibility that comes with participating in an inherently dangerous, unforgiving sport. The paybacks can be immense, but the risks are too.

Unlike others, I think your post is depressing and cynical.

The views you express about advances in gear, safety and training were also expressed 13 years ago, 23 years ago and much earlier than that.

People have always complained about
- low turns,
- advancing to high performance canopies too soon,
- people selling gear to unqualified jumpers,
- use of seatbelts,
- advantages and disadvantages of AADs,
- people too cocky for their own good & not listening to the wise people,
- people suing,
- people not realizing the risk they took until something failed,
- etc, etc.

On one hand you ask for jumpers to be diligent and self-reliant, yet at the same time you say that some people don't have a clue about the risks they assume.

The way I see the past 23 years that I have been jumping is:

- I watched the 64-way at Perris in 1981 from the ground as a student jumper. It wasn't a record because of the FAI 5 sec rule. I was on the last two large formation records (as you were) of 300 and 357. Now, we do 64-ways as pick up loads.

- There was only Static line instruction available in 1981. Today, we have tandem, IAD, AFF, hybrid AFF as well as SL.

- I used an AAD on my first H&P in 1981. The next time with an AAD was in 1999. Now an AAD is required (almost everywhere in the world) for all student jumps. Our culture creates device dependency. Long ago, jumpers bitched about the rule to wear a second parachute. Today, people bitch if you don't wear a helmet on a 357-way.

- We jumped without riser covers back then, now people bitch that the covers sometimes flap.

IOW, we have advanced and will continue to advance.
We have reached new levels of performance, equipment reliability and safety.

What we have not done and probably will never be able to do is to change the character and nature of people.

You can change the outcome of people's character and nature by changes in equipment, training, rules and penalties, but you will not change the fundamental nature of people.

.

---
I have a dream that my posts will one day will not be judged by the color of the fonts or settings in a Profile but by the content.
Geronimo_AT_http://ParachuteHistory.com

[billvon 2,400]

>In this case, if the DZO knew the reserve was out of date, or that the
> prop was faulty, these are clear cases of negligence. How is anybody
> going to know that the reserve card on their rented rig hasn't been
> altered to make it appear up to date? They can't know this.

Y'know, I could post a long answer to this about personal responsibility and the waiver, but that's been done. A much simpler (and in many ways more accurate) is that people see skydiving differently now. Today there are the jumpers, the DZO's, the pilots, etc. Us and them. Back then there was just us. Why sue yourself when you were part of the reason the rig was out of date?

>Once they stray into the realm of becoming negligent, however, they
>are operating their business with no respect for human life.

The idea that "a reserve out of date" = "no regard for human life" was simply absurd ten years ago. One, reserves packing data cards _were_ sometimes falsified, and the pencil that did it could usually be found in the jumper's, not the DZO's, pocket. Two, if we had lots of regard for our lives we'd be fishing, not jumping out of airplanes.

[skygirl1 1]

Thank you for your deep thoughts.....I enjoyed reading your post........and learned alot......thank you again.....

skygirl1

" Mean people SUCK!"

[flyangel2 2]

1979, under a green T-ten. Front mount reserves. Couldn't get under a square till we had 50 jumps. My first square was a Unit, in which I had to cut a huge hole in the slider to get it to open.

Jan, the more things change, the more they stay the same.

Edit, cause I can't type today and Chris pointed out my mistake

May your trails be crooked, winding, lonesome, dangerous, leading to the most amazing view. May your mountains rise into and above the clouds. - Edward Abbey

[diverdriver 5]

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1997, under a green T-ten. Front mount reserves. Couldn't get under a square till we had 50 jumps. My first square was a Unit, in which I had to cut a huge hole in the slider to get it to open.

Jan, the more things change, the more they stay the same.

1997?

[Amazon 7]

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Two, if we had lots of regard for our lives we'd be fishing, not jumping out of airplanes.

Hey Bill wanna go fishing out across the Columbia River Bar with me?????

The very first time I ever hung under a parachute of any type was a modified paracommander that they called a parasail... towed to 700 ft by a Bertram over Biscayne Bay at the USAF Sea Survival School..so my first two landings were water jumps that was 1972.... and I wanted to do a REAL parachute jump right then and there. The parachute center out at Homestead.. somehow sticks in my mind as similar to Fandango for some reason back then... Tom Manning was my instructor and... well those that knew him back then he was the quintisential hippie dude. I bought my first rig that from him and had my first malfunction and cutaway on my fifth jump...surplus rig.. Pap in a sleeve that I had packed. Ah the memories.

[chronistin 0]

Great post.

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jump, and accept the responsibility

What about putting these words on T-Shirts?

Chronistin
(Home @ http://www.fallschirmspringer.net/)

[hottamaly 1]

ditto, ditto, ditto.....Best thing I've read in a long time Bill. Thanks. I'm in my 13th year in the sport also and it's too bad things have gotten to this point. To some "older folks" (in the sport) it isn't fun any more because of the new attitudes.
Keep on writting Bill, some of us can understand where you are coming from.

Skydiving gave me a reason to live
I'm not afraid of what I'll miss when I die...I'm afraid of what I'll miss as I live

[billvon 2,400]

>What about putting these words on T-Shirts?

Now that's not a bad idea! I like the "real skydivers don't sue" one from another poster.

[Jessica 0]

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>What about putting these words on T-Shirts?

Now that's not a bad idea! I like the "real skydivers don't sue" one from another poster.

I'd buy them both.

Skydiving is for cool people only

[Shark 0]

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>What about putting these words on T-Shirts?

Now that's not a bad idea! I like the "real skydivers don't sue" one from another poster.

I'd buy them both.

There's another I saw at the gear store: "Stop Bitching and Jump!" I thought of the political threads and their antagonistic nature.

[chronistin 0]

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I'd buy them both.

Me too

Chronistin
(Home @ http://www.fallschirmspringer.net/)

[mouth 0]

I actually enjoyed reading that post. Thanks Bill.

--
Hot Mama
At least you know where you stand even if it is in a pile of shit.