AFF student on Anti depresants?

[Tonto 1]

I know nothing about drugs... so forgive my ignorance.

I have an AFF student who told me only after failing L3 that he is on anti-depresant medication. His dosage is designed to make him "normal." The dive was mayhem - but no worse than some other L 3's I've seen.

Is it OK for him to carry on? Are there AFF students out there who went through the AFF program on meds - or Instructors with some experience in this regard?

Feedback apreciated.

t

It's the year of the Pig.

[bojana 0]

I'm curious what does the (aviation) doctor say?

[weegegirl 2]

I know people on anti-depresents that jump. Shouldn't be an issue at all.

[ChrisL 2]

If its antidepressants like Prozac or other Seratonin reuptake inhibitors there should be no issues.
They dont affect reaction times in a negative fashion
like other types of meds can.

__

My mighty steed

[dmbale 0]

I would have the student talk with his/her doctor.

Some anti-depressants cause dizziness to the point of vertigo, drowsiness, and insomnia. All could potentially effect a person's safety in the air.

[mr2mk1g 10]

I know people on anti-depressants - jumping should not be an issue for those people. Without it they would feel depressed, cry a lot and would be quick to upset. They too are prescribed the drug just to feel normal.

I have however, just read a medical report on a case I'm dealing with where the claimant is on anti-depressants. This woman is suffering from serious PTSD and needs medication to simply stop her from freaking out and having a full blown panic attack at the concept of driving.

When I asked the psychiatrist if her meds would effect her driving he wrote: (exact quote) "...to some extent the ability to drive is related to the actual dose of medication, the higher the dose then the more likely it is that driving skills will be interfered with."

So there you are - exact words from a Consultant Psychiatrist. It depends on the dose.

[Tonto 1]

Thanks to all for the speedy response. I'll see if I can find out product and dosage and post that.

Just need to add here that this student is as normal as can be - and was just wondering why the L3 didn't go as well as the other 2 and thought the meds may have had something to do with it.

If he had not mentioned he was on medication - I would never have known.

t

It's the year of the Pig.

[Ron 7]

I would have some issues taking a clinicly depressed person on a skydive.

I would have the same issues with teaching them how to shoot a weapon.

I would ask an aviation Doc.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[nicknitro71 0]

Quote

would ask an aviation Doc

NO! Ask his/her pshychiatrist.

The student was honest enough to share this with you the least you can do is the contact the physitian who prescribed the drug. An aciaction doctor would not now why this person is on this medication and if skydiving is an OK activity.

Memento Audere Semper

903

[Tink1717 2]

I would seriously advise AGAINST posting drug and dosage information here due to patient privacy laws. If you feel you need to consult, ask the student directly for access to his/her provider. If permission is refused, then probe no further. You are not a health care professional. If you try to make a diagnosis or prognosis, you are practicing medicine without a license. If you are that uncomfortable with this student, your only option is to refer him/her to another instructor.

Skydivers don't knock on Death's door. They ring the bell and runaway... It really pisses him off.
-The World Famous Tink. (I never heard of you either!!)
AA #2069 ASA#33 POPS#8808 Swooo 1717

[Michele 1]

Quote

and was just wondering why the L3 didn't go as well as the other 2 and thought the meds may have had something to do with it.

Not due to SSRI's...

Poor Ron. I shoot, and am a great shot. I skydive, and while I am really no good at it, I'm not terribly unsafe, either. I started shooting with undiagnosed clinical depression...and never shot anyone (a whole bunch of paper targets lost their lives, but that's fine...) and I started AFF on Prozac and Trazodone.

Guess what? I'm as fine as fine can be. I changed meds last summer, and stopped the traz (except when I can't sleep), and am *still* fine. Oh well. Your choice, true, but still...

Tonto, I wouldn't post the meds or the dosage. If you're really interested in what SSRI's do, I'd run an internet search, and learn something about how they work, what they're designed to do, and the side effects. If you have any questions, I would be more than happy to share my experiences with you. Just ask.

Ciels-
Michele

~Do Angels keep the dreams we seek
While our hearts lie bleeding?~

[mr2mk1g 10]

I can't speak for Ron, but my only concern considering combining shooting and skydiving with people on anti-depressants would not be from them screwing up, "wigging out" or shooting someone else... but from simply committing suicide.

The people I know who are on anti-depressants, have at certain times been people who I would not have trusted with a gun or with the responsability of saving their own life. It would be simply providing them with an all too easy way of ending what they considered to be a miserable life.

Now this is not all people on anti-depressants, but there are certainly some out there who are on them because of suicidal thaughts and those thaughts continued untill well after commencing the course of medication.

That is the class of person who I would not want in a rig or with a gun. I'm glad you do not fall into this class, but be careful making blanket statements to the effect that no one on antidepressants does.

[Ron 7]

Quote

NO! Ask his/her pshychiatrist

Uh this is an AVIATION activity.

Quote

B. Compliance with Federal regulations [NW]

1. No skydive may be made in violation of Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) regulations.

2. FAA regulations include the use of restraint systems in the aircraft by all skydivers during movement on the surface, takeoff, and landing. [FAR 91.107]


Section 2-1: Basic Safety Requirements
C. Medical requirements [NW]

1. All persons engaging in skydiving must:

a. Carry a valid Class 1, 2, or 3 Federal Aviation Administration Medical Certificate; or

b. Carry a certificate of physical fitness for skydiving from a registered physician; or

c. Have completed the USPA recommended medical statement.

2. Any skydiver acting as parachutist in command on a tandem jump must possess an FAA Class 3 medical certificate or the equivalent.

From the FAR's

Quote

Sec. 91.17 Alcohol or drugs

(b) Except in an emergency, no pilot of a civil aircraft may allow a person who appears to be intoxicated or who demonstrates by manner or physical indications that the individual is under the influence of drugs (except a medical patient under proper care) to be carried in that aircraft.


Sec. 105.7 Use of alcohol and drugs

No person may conduct a parachute operation, and no pilot in command of an aircraft may allow a person to conduct a parachute operation from that aircraft, if that person is or appears to be under the influence of--

(a) Alcohol, or

(b) Any drug that affects that person's faculties in any way contrary to safety.

A FLIGHT Doc is the only one that can really tell you what meds are allowed.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[Michele 1]

I see your position; I don't agree with it, but I see it.

Frankly, I would be far more worried that a person who has undiagnosed depression and not getting treatment would suicide. Someone who has recognized an issue and is seeking assistance for that problem is far less likely to suicide than someone stuggling with suicidal ideations with no help.

Wanna know what's really bad? There are many people who have depression and suicidal ideations, and are not treated. You would never know it, either...depression is insideous, and often very well hidden from view.

Ciels-
Michele

~Do Angels keep the dreams we seek
While our hearts lie bleeding?~

[mr2mk1g 10]

Quote

I would be far more worried that a person who has undiagnosed depression and not getting treatment would suicide

Accepted - my concern would stand for anyone who is suicidal. For example, I am in no way concerned for my friend who wants to skydive and is on antidepressants for they are no longer suicidal. However, during the parts of their life when they were both on antidepressants and suicidal, they would have had to fight through me to get on the flight line before being pulled by the DZO at my request.

It’s just that the need for antidepressant medication can be indicative of suicidal tendencies and as such may put you on notice that they may use their skydiving as an opportunity for self-harm.

Legally speaking I could even see liability claims stemming from this – ie you knew they were on antidepressants, this should have put you on notice that they were potentially suicidal, armed with this knowledge you should not have allowed them into a situation where they could easily take their own life. Doing so was a negligent act which led to the death of my son/daughter.

In a sue happy culture, the above is less a joke and more a bona fide cause of action for a grieving parent. I doubt it would succeed, but these things don't have to succeed to bankrupt people.

[Ron 7]

Quote

Poor Ron. I shoot, and am a great shot. I skydive, and while I am really no good at it, I'm not terribly unsafe, either. I started shooting with undiagnosed clinical depression...and never shot anyone (a whole bunch of paper targets lost their lives, but that's fine...) and I started AFF on Prozac and Trazodone.

Clinicly depressed people have been know to commit suicide.

We don't need someone to take themselves out and leave a black mark on the sport.

Quote

Guess what? I'm as fine as fine can be. I changed meds last summer, and stopped the traz (except when I can't sleep), and am *still* fine. Oh well. Your choice, true, but still...

Great, glad for you, but unless you came to me with a statment from your shrink or an Aviation doc...maybe both. you would not be in the student program at any DZ I was S&TA or DZO. After you get your license thats your buisness.

In this case a shrink does not know enough about the sport to tell if the person can do it...An Aviation medical doc knows what meds are approved...In this case I'd make them come back with letters from both.

Plus you could always stop taking the meds, or change them and who knows what effects they will have...My GF's sister just tried to off herself. She quit taking her meds and instead took 30 sleeping pills.

This is serious shit folks...People die doing it, and if you have a medical condition that might cause problems (Suicide for being depressed fit in here), or taking medications that could effect your performance...you should not jump till you are cleared.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[GravityGirl 0]

Anti-Depresants are quite common these day.

HOWEVER! You won't know the true state of mind of your particular student.

If it was my student, I would request a note from his doctor stating he is mentally fit to skydive. Treat it just like any other ailment. And of course keep it confidential.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Peace and Blue Skies!
Bonnie ==>Gravity Gear!

[bmcd308 0]

From my knowledge of myself and my skydiving friends, I would say that undiagnosed depression is rampant in our sport, and in most high-risk adrenaline sports, for that matter.

Brent

----------------------------------
www.jumpelvis.com

[DrewEckhardt 0]

Quote

A FLIGHT Doc is the only one that can really tell you what meds are allowed.

He'll tell you that American pilots are only allowed to use authorized medications. The FAA does not authorize the use of any anti-depressants, and you need to be off anti-depressants for 60-90 days before getting a medical certificate.

Some pilots work arround this by flying depressed without medication or lying to the government.

Other countries are more enlightened and permit the use of SSRIs.

If you're safe to drive, you're safe to skydive.

[Michele 1]

Quote

From my knowledge of myself and my skydiving friends, I would say that undiagnosed depression is rampant in our sport, and in most high-risk adrenaline sports, for that matter.

Bingo...if one understands what depression is (and is not), and what adrenalin does (and does not), then one can see that correlation really clearly. Further, understanding what SSRI's do (and do not do) would be a good start.

I suppose my point is simply that someone on anti-depressants is not automatically suicidal, and should not be judged as such. There are far more suicides from people without a diagnosis than there are with one...simply because once someone goes for help, gets the diagnosis, and starts to recover, they are in a far better place than some people I know (a few on these boards, as well...).

When I said "Poor Ron", what I meant was your and my history of you saying "I won't take XX student", when the parameters (happenstantially) fit me. Chubby. Clinical depressed. And so on. I just found it funny....

There is such a stigma with people who are clinically depressed. That alone is my battle. And when I hear someone saying that "so and so is using anti depressants", there is the automatic assumption that they are a danger to themselves and others. That's not true...and I maintain that someone with undiagnosed, untreated depression is far more of a danger than one who has a diagnosis and is taking meds.

I am sorry your GF's sister tried to "off" herself. I would suggest that her family get far more proactive about assisting her, and getting her meds which work for her (realize that meds don't always work for one person, while they will for another...), as well as good counselling for everyone involved.

To me, clinical depression is like any other chronic illness - diabetes, sickle cell anemia, arthritis, and so forth. I know people with all but one of these who jump...and they're not stigmatized in any way. That's all I'm pointing out.

Educate yourself on what depression is and isn't, what meds do and don't do, and find out something about it instead of only relying on hearsay and tv media (not saying you, Ron, but everyone..... ).

Tonto, the offer remains. I am more than willing to answer honestly any questions I can, or help you find the information which will allow you to make a more qualified decision. And that goes for anyone else, too. I am not an expert, just someone who suffered with undiagnosed clinical depression for 9,940 days (or thereabouts...).

Ciels-
Michele

~Do Angels keep the dreams we seek
While our hearts lie bleeding?~

[Ron 7]

Quote

Other countries are more enlightened and permit the use of SSRIs

More enlightened? Maybe less private pilots and a less of a sue happy culture...But more enlightend?

Lets not forget that a good number of people are on anti depressants to counter a low so bad they have contiplated or attempted suicide.

I don't want a guy that could not care if he lives of dies skydiving, or worse flying me or my family.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[Ron 7]

Quote

Bingo...if one understands what depression is (and is not), and what adrenalin does (and does not), then one can see that correlation really clearly. Further, understanding what SSRI's do (and do not do) would be a good start.

And who would know better? The person who wants to skydive, or a Doctor?

Which Dr. would know more about the effects of drugs and the extreme environment of skydiving or flying? I would go with the Aviation Dr. every time.

Quote

I suppose my point is simply that someone on anti-depressants is not automatically suicidal, and should not be judged as such.

I never said they were. However, they are at a higher risk than someone that is not depressed. The fact that they are depressed may make it so they are not in a healthy enough mental state to safely skydive.

Even if others are at a greater risk...The people on anti-depressants are waving a red flag that others are not.

Quote

When I said "Poor Ron", what I meant was your and my history of you saying "I won't take XX student", when the parameters (happenstantially) fit me. Chubby. Clinical depressed. And so on. I just found it funny....

I never took offense to it. I would not take a dangerously overweight or out of shape person. (I have no idea how in shape or "chubby" as you call it you are.) Or I would not take a person who I deemed as a danger to themselves, or someone else.

This sport is not for everyone...And it should not be. There are real dangers and being unhealthy while trying to perform in a high stress, high speed and unforgiving environment just adds to the danger.

It is even more dangerous to be unhealthy while trying to LEARN a dangerous activity.

Quote

There is such a stigma with people who are clinically depressed. That alone is my battle. And when I hear someone saying that "so and so is using anti depressants", there is the automatic assumption that they are a danger to themselves and others. That's not true...and I maintain that someone with undiagnosed, untreated depression is far more of a danger than one who has a diagnosis and is taking meds.

But there is a giant red flag being waived when people know you are on anti-depessants that is not there for someone who might be depressed but not doing anything about it.

I comend you for your desire to get better, but the simple fact is that some health issues are a deterent to saftey while skydiving. If someone had epilepsy, no matter how much they may want to skydive, I would not take them. I have heard some DZ's say that they can jump as long as they have an AAD....Thats wrong.

While a person who is seaking treatment might be better off than someone who does not know they are imbalanced...Can you imagine the legal issues if I took a student who I knew had a heart problem, or was depressed and they died due to heart failure or suicide?

Again skydiving is a high risk, high speed, unforgiving sport. Not everyone can safley do it, nor should they be allowed to do it if they have health issues.

Quote

I am sorry your GF's sister tried to "off" herself. I would suggest that her family get far more proactive about assisting her, and getting her meds which work for her (realize that meds don't always work for one person, while they will for another...), as well as good counselling for everyone involved.

They have tried, but she continues to place herself in unhealthy situations...And her failure to reliably take her meds is an issue only she can fix...She is almost 40 years old, you can't force someone to do something if they chose not to.

And what about when someone who is on meds, and they get a RX change...You don't know how the meds will work , or if they will work. So again they are in danger.

Quote

To me, clinical depression is like any other chronic illness - diabetes, sickle cell anemia, arthritis, and so forth. I know people with all but one of these who jump...and they're not stigmatized in any way. That's all I'm pointing out.

Except people with diabeties (Which I have), sickle cell anemia or arthritis don't sometimes kill themselves due to it.

The problem with depression is not always suicide...But just not careing if the person lives or dies...Its not an active suicide, but a passive one. Skydiving and a person who is not happy with their life and is indifferent as to if they live or die do not go together well.

And like I said if he/she/you came to me and brought letters from the Dr's saying you are not a risk...Well then you could train. But not until.

Quote

Educate yourself on what depression is and isn't, what meds do and don't do, and find out something about it instead of only relying on hearsay and tv media (not saying you, Ron, but everyone..... ).

And part of that education should be the link I posted that shows the number of people who have commited suicide in this sport.

I would ask anyone that has thougths of suicide to get help...call a friend, call a professional, talk to cleargy...Get help.

If you feel you MUST end your life...don't do it in such a way as to hurt the sport you claim to love.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[BlindBrick 0]

Quote

Now this is not all people on anti-depressants, but there are certainly some out there who are on them because of suicidal thaughts and those thaughts continued untill well after commencing the course of medication.

That is the class of person who I would not want in a rig or with a gun. I'm glad you do not fall into this class, but be careful making blanket statements to the effect that no one on antidepressants does.

I think that this is a thing that has to be a case by case thing. I tried to kill myself and had been out of the psych ward for less than five weeks when I began skydiving. It turned out to be the best therapy I ever had because it showed me what I had to live for.

-Blind

"If you end up in an alligator's jaws, naked, you probably did something to deserve it."

[Michele 1]

Quote

Lets not forget that a good number of people are on anti depressants to counter a low so bad they have contiplated or attempted suicide.

and then....

Quote

(me:)
I suppose my point is simply that someone on anti-depressants is not automatically suicidal, and should not be judged as such.
~~~~~~~~~
(You)
I never said they were. However, they are at a higher risk than someone that is not depressed. The fact that they are depressed may make it so they are not in a healthy enough mental state to safely skydive.

Anyway, I'm not going to go round and round the mulberry bush with you on this. You don't know what it is, and you're making judgments without knowledge as most do on this topic - it's all good...I don't take offense at you being normal. You are looking to be right, rather than understand. You're absolutely right for your life; as I am for mine.

I thank God (again) that you weren't my instructor, and that many folks have taken time to teach me about how to fly my body - one of the best things I've ever done for myself, with or without meds.

Tonto, my offer again is reiterated.

Ciels-
Michele

~Do Angels keep the dreams we seek
While our hearts lie bleeding?~

[benny 0]

Has anyone ever thought of the possibility that taking up skydiving could give a person who was depressed a new outlook on life and resultingly make them less suicidal or even not suicidal at all? In any case, depressed, clinically, on anti-depressants or not does not necessarily mean one is suicidal. When you are actually suicidal you need medical supervision. If the shrink let them loose, chances are that they are confident in the person's control over themself.

Never go to a DZ strip show.