Skydiving is one of the safest risky sports

[CanuckInUSA 0]

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When I read the incident reports in skydiving I don't see people randomly going in, I see a lot of failures in judgements with the rare "did everything right" thrown in. A lot of times it's even a chain of poor judgements, someone pushing things too far in one or more areas and when they eventually make a mistake it goes fatal instead of just being broken bones and bruises.

Without a doubt, most of the skydiving incidents are a result of a series of bad decisions which compound into one really nasty incident. But random things do happen more often in skydiving than they do in rock climbing (of course WX in rock climbing can add to the randomness just as it applies to skydiving).

Try not to worry about the things you have no control over

[quade 3]

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Well, I guess risky sport implies one in which you can get killed while practicing it. You could also include those in which you can get very seriously hurt but very rarely killed like american football for example but let's keep it to the significantly potentially deadly ones.

Again, I'm not really sure I understand what that means.

People die riding bicycles on city streets when cars run into them. Certainly the potential danger is always with them, but, would you consider that to be a "risky sport"?

If it is simply the "potentially deadly ones", where do you want to make that cut off?

Probably not in the set of "potentially deadly ones":
Golf, bowling, tennis, soccer . . .

Probably in the set of "potentially deadly ones":
Anything involving a potential fall of over 10 feet.
Anything with a closing rate of with the planet or another massive object of more than 20 mph.
Anything where you might be mistaken to be a part of the food chain.
Anything where if you do nothing for 6 seconds you'll probably die.

I dunno, I'm just trying to put some handles on your definition.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[cruzit 0]

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But random things do happen more often in skydiving than they do in rock climbing

Sorry, I respectfully must disagree. I have been skydiving for 11 years and rock climbing for 4. I have an excellent understanding and respect for the dangers of both sports. Based upon my experience with both sports, rock climbing is much more dangerous than skydiving. There are many, many more outside forces affecting you during a "lead" climb (I don't include "top-roping" which I agree holds a lesser degree of risk of injury).

In climbing, you are dependent on your personal skill in gear placement and climbing technique. In addition, you are also dependent on the attentiveness and skill of your belayer (unlike skydiving where the sole responsibility for your pull belongs to you). This factor alone in my mind makes the sport of rock climbing more dangerous. Additionally, while there is potential for mechanical failure in both sports, it is unlikey you will be struck by lightening, be injured by falling rock or failed anchors, or be eaten by a bear (you may laugh...but I almost stepped on a massive black bear on my hike in to climb Grand Teton last year).

Both sports are potentially unsafe...but I have been injured only once skydiving seriously enough to have to lay off...I have been injured at least four times climbing seriously enough to require recovery time.

I have a whole lot more confidence that I will walk away injury free after a day of skydiving than I do from a day climbing.

Jackie

[velo90 0]

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[but let's keep it to the significantly potentially deadly ones.

And there you have it in a nutshell.
significantly potentially deadly

Now explain to me how something that is "significantly potentially deadly" can safe?

I leave Ron and elfanie to their own conversation

[CanuckInUSA 0]

It's possible that I haven't done enough rock climbing. I have lead some trad routes, but I am very much NOT a bad ass rock climber and only have limited multi-pitch route experience and no big-wall experience. I know I have been sketched out on some exposed class 4 (or low 5s with no ropes) and have always considered those dangers more risky than your typical skydive. But I do know that I have had closer calls in skydiving whereas I do not believe I have a single close call in rock climbing (maybe going back to the fact that I haven't pushed myself enough in rock climbing). And that is what I base my opinion on.

Try not to worry about the things you have no control over

[Amazon 7]

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So, back in the day, would you actually have a relatively normal landing if you put your rig on backwards like in the picture

Its a caracature but look at old pictures back in the early days and where the attachment points were

Pay particular attention to where the attachment points were for reserves that were attached to rings near your hips and in front by the lower ribs.

Read that whole little cartoon with a grain of salt... Its the most thrilling but safest sport today. That was stated back in the late 1950's.. I put it there as sarcasm.. REmember at the time Cars were huge went fast... no seat belts. and a very good chance of a fatality if you rolled over or had an accident. Equipment was not nearly as good. It was far easier to die of many diseases that we since have found treatments for. Life expectancy was lower.

NO... shit can happen in this sport when you do EVERYTHING right. I have watched friends go in.. and that haunts you far more than when something happens to you.

Many young jumpers have the invincibility of youth.

Once things happen in your life that help you to REALIZE YOUR MORTALITY you do things with the knowledge that shit just happens. Some may take up other activities, while others continue on with a new found respect for their mortality.

Skydiving is far safer now than when that cartoon was produced, but it is still a sport where on every jump... for no reason whatsoever something CAN happen.. thru training and with good equipment you mitigate the risk.. but shit can still happen.

[pkasdorf 0]

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People die riding bicycles on city streets when cars run into them. Certainly the potential danger is always with them, but, would you consider that to be a "risky sport"?

If it is simply the "potentially deadly ones", where do you want to make that cut off?

Probably not in the set of "potentially deadly ones":
Golf, bowling, tennis, soccer . . .

Probably in the set of "potentially deadly ones":
Anything involving a potential fall of over 10 feet.
Anything with a closing rate of with the planet or another massive object of more than 20 mph.
Anything where you might be mistaken to be a part of the food chain.
Anything where if you do nothing for 6 seconds you'll probably die.

I dunno, I'm just trying to put some handles on your definition.

Is it because english is not my mother language? Or is there something else? I never thought I could confuse some people so much. When I say "significantly potentially deadly", there it is, the limits are set, I accept that not with surgical precision but they are set. You can get killed playing soccer, american football, tennis, baseball but the potential death risk is far from significant. You can get killed BASE jumping, bungee jumping, mountain climbing, trapeze acrobatics, Delta wing flying and in those sports the potential death risk is significant.

Don't ask me to list them all and I don't have a precise definition, I would say that common sense (was it Aristotle who said that it was the least common of senses?) guides you to identify what I mean. Sorry if I seem rude, it is not my intention.

HISPA # 18 POPS # 8757

[elfanie 0]

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Many young jumpers have the invincibility of youth.

Once things happen in your life that help you to REALIZE YOUR MORTALITY you do things with the knowledge that shit just happens. Some may take up other activities, while others continue on with a new found respect for their mortality.

If this was referring to me..

then bless your heart for calling me "young". Check is in the mail to you.

I definately see my own mortality...very very clearly. I do not have blinders on as to the risks of activities that I engage in every day of my life...
the risks that I took in having children, the risks that I take in driving my car, the risks that I take in skydiving, the risks that I take every day.

and I will say that I see many many people skydiving in a way that I think are unsafe. I think that this sport can very very easily be made unsafe...and it's those things that I choose not to engage in.

As for Ron and me going at it...
Hee hee. If Ron was in the same room as me I'd probably toss my arm over his shoulder and give him a big smacking kiss on the cheek. He'd probably throw my arm off of him and look at me in disgust...but despite the manner in which he communicates, I find him very amusing and would probably love to have a beer with him (so long as we don't discuss the definition of "safe" and whether skydiving as a sport is safe. )

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Elfanie
My Skydiving Page
Fly Safe - Soft Landings

[SkydivingNurse 0]

I'm with you on this one, Ron. I have a whopping total of six jumps, I've already lost a friend, my first JM died in a BASE incident, I broke my finger on my first jump. This is a hobby with very real dangers, I've already landed in the plane once when two of my fingers started tingling at altitude.
I'm an ER nurse, I've seen people get busted up really bad by slipping on a pile of wet leaves, there's no way I'm going to think that this sport is risk-free. I've read a bunch of your posts, and I've learned from them. If I ever get down your way, you got a jump ticket on me.

Edit to add: didn't vote because I frankly don't know enough about this sport to make an informed decision.

[velo90 0]

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the risks that I took in having children

Now you have something that really is horrific.
Unlike skydiving, where when you screw up, its all over in 80 seconds, kids haunt you for the rest of your life.
I know, I have two. Nightmare.

I know where you are coming from with the "skydiving is safe" routine. I also agree with Ron's view. The only difference between me and Ron is that I have a bit more patience in waiting for you to change your mind

Dare I say, it's relatively safe to wait for you to change your mind

You will never change Ron's opinion, but that does not matter. What really matters is that you continue to jump and learn and if by pure chance you are still with us in 10 years, you will understand Ron's point of view.

You have stated often enough that you are prepared to accept the risk. Why bother trying to convince people it's safe.

[elfanie 0]

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the risks that I took in having children

Now you have something that really is horrific.
Unlike skydiving, where when you screw up, its all over in 80 seconds, kids haunt you for the rest of your life.
I know, I have two. Nightmare.

*lol*
I was more referring to the mortal risk and physical risk of carrying and birthing them.

Emotionally....heck, I won't even touch that.

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I know where you are coming from with the "skydiving is safe" routine. I also agree with Ron's view. The only difference between me and Ron is that I have a bit more patience in waiting for you to change your mind

And if I change my mind...I will bake up the crow myself and munch down.

hysterical thing was..I had a bounce dream last night. I survived...but was in the hospital and knew I was going to die. My LAST WORDS in my dream was, "It's still safe! Don't let my death scare people off...I am the one that screwed up!" then I died/woke up...
hee hee. I actually giggled to myself.

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You will never change Ron's opinion, but that does not matter. What really matters is that you continue to jump and learn and if by pure chance you are still with us in 10 years, you will understand Ron's point of view.

I have never tried to change Ron's opinion..he absolutely has a right to his feelings/opinions. And it's possible that after 500 jumps (which won't take 10 years) I'll agree with him.
I doubt it. but anything is possible.

doesn't mean I don't understand his point of view. Not agreeing with him does NOT mean that I don't understand what he's saying or why he feels this way. I totally do understand it. just don't agree. *shrug*

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You have stated often enough that you are prepared to accept the risk. Why bother trying to convince people it's safe.

I don't. just trying to get them to understand that just because I feel it's safe doesn't mean I'm an idiot..or naive...or that my opinion isn't otherwise JUST as valid as theirs. (I know..I know...it's a futile attempt that will get me nowhere...but what the heck, I have nothing better to do when I sit down at DZ.com and it's much better than talking about 98% of what is talked about in Talk Back)

I never ever ever tried to get Ron to change his mind...I just was hoping that he would at least get to a point where he could respect that I have a right to my opinion, too. (there's also an amusement factor involved in this conversation)

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Elfanie
My Skydiving Page
Fly Safe - Soft Landings

[velo90 0]

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also an amusement factor involved in this conversation

You see I am British, born in England, an the phrase that springs to mind is "we are not amused".

Queen Vic if I'm not mistaken.

You are continuing to engage Ron in an arguement where you are hoplessly out of you league. This is not intended as an insult. It is simple fact. But don't worry we have all (nearly) done that at one time or another.

Quit the confrontaion and just listen, it's far easier, make your decisions and when you you've been around the sport for a bit longer someone might listen to you.

By the way, I am probably rambling to much now. The beer is nice here in Germany.

[elfanie 0]

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also an amusement factor involved in this conversation

You see I am British, born in England, an the phrase that springs to mind is "we are not amused".

didn't mean that YOU were amused...
meant that *I* am amused. Ron amuses me...in a wierd twisted way, I like the guy.

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You are continuing to engage Ron in an arguement where you are hoplessly out of you league. This is not intended as an insult. It is simple fact. But don't worry we have all (nearly) done that at one time or another.

Quit the confrontaion and just listen, it's far easier, make your decisions and when you you've been around the sport for a bit longer someone might listen to you.

Why?
seriously...WHY am I "out of my league"?? Nobody has ever said why he is better able to form an opinion about the safety/dangers of skydiving than I am?
His experience? Doesn't take experience with something to be able to assess the risks of the activity.
Is it his years?
(is he older than me? I'm not even sure..he could be 25 or he could be 65...and actually it wouldn't make a difference to me.) Age doesn't make one better at assessing risk than someone else.

Is it because he's had more losses or injury in the sport?
that fact has absolutely nothing to do with the risk the sport has.

Has he read more books than I have? Studied the risks more? read more studies? I don't know..and neither do you and neither does he. None of us know what the other has or has not studied or for how long.

Is it because of years in the sport? Years in the sport does not tell you any more about the risks of the sport.

Or is he just somehow smarter than me so that I am just so outwitted that I couldn't possibly have the ability to understand the risks involved? I'm sure Ron is a very very intelligent person....but so am I.

So that begs the question...why am I hopelessly out of my league? In what way? And what makes his opinion more valid than my opinion?

As for confrontation...if Ron feels that I'm being confrontational than I will apologize to him and not contribute another word to this topic. I thought we were having a discussion...sharing ideas...sharing why we feel the way we do and having (what I thought was) an interesting conversation.

Shut up and listen? Do that all the time. Automatically take what they say as truth and law without question and without educating myself first? Never. I don't do that with anybody...and hope that I never do. If he shares with me some bit of knowledge about the sport that I don't know about....GOOD! If he shares with me some information that changes my mind (and "you're too new" just won't cut it)...then GREAT! I want all of the information I can possibly have and if I"m missing something then I'd love for someone to educate me about it!
but to change my opinions just because someone else says, "Trust me..you should.."
umm..no. WHY should I....you share with me why I should feel the way you do and maybe I will. But we all have the right to our opinions, and he hasn't offered me any new information that would change my opinion...

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Elfanie
My Skydiving Page
Fly Safe - Soft Landings

[ltdiver 3]

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Probably in the set of "potentially deadly ones":
Anything involving a potential fall of over 10 feet.

Interesting that this exact same number came up here.

Just yesterday, a wuffo asked me how high you had to jump to be worried about dying. I shook my head and said, "10 feet".
It's not the height that kills you, it's the fact that the planet gets in your way...

ltdiver

Don't tell me the sky's the limit when there are footprints on the moon

[velo90 0]

Oooppps... I done it again

OK, I agree with you that Ron is no better than you at forming opinions in general.
But when it comes to opinions about skydiving would you argue with idea that he is more qualified, has a better understanding, is more experienced.

As an example :
A car mechanic can also form opinions about whether your car is safe. But would you go to a doctor and ask him if your car is safe?
If your doctor said "I have the same car as you and I feel the risks involved in driving it are acceptable", but the mechanic said "it's a death trap", who would you believe?
We all drive cars, but there are people more qualified to form opinions about what is safe and what is not. This is what I meant by "out of your league".

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Is it because of years in the sport? Years in the sport does not tell you any more about the risks of the sport.

In my opinion it does. When people assess risks they do not look at single instances. My baby fell out of the high chair, therefore high chairs are dangerous. They look at the big picture. Sometimes it can take years to absorb all the information needed to make a proper assessment.

You have formed your opinion about this sport and Ron has his. Surely you can see why people would tend to believe Ron's opinion rather than yours.

[pds 0]

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Why?
seriously...WHY am I "out of my league"?? Nobody has ever said why he is better able to form an opinion about the safety/dangers of skydiving than I am?

well....

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His experience?

umm, yeah.

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Is it his years?

probably.

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Is it because he's had more losses or injury in the sport?
that fact has absolutely nothing to do with the risk the sport has.

yup, you are correct, watching your friends and loved ones die dont change the risks, what it does is refine ones perception of the risks involved.

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Has he read more books than I have? Studied the risks more? read more studies? I don't know..and neither do you and neither does he. None of us know what the other has or has not studied or for how long.

book learnin is of limited value in this sport.

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Is it because of years in the sport?

yes

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Years in the sport does not tell you any more about the risks of the sport.

huh? i must have ditched that day in logic 101.

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Or is he just somehow smarter than me so that I am just so outwitted that I couldn't possibly have the ability to understand the risks involved? I'm sure Ron is a very very intelligent person....but so am I.

i would never accuse ron of being smarter than anyone. lmao.

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So that begs the question...why am I hopelessly out of my league? In what way? And what makes his opinion more valid than my opinion?

see above, above, above and above because you are discussing skydiving with skydivers who have more experience than yourself.

it would be irresponsible to ignore your assertion that skydiving is safe.

i aint mad at ya and i dont think you are stupid. i just think that you dont know what you are talking about.

namaste, motherfucker.

[mr2mk1g 10]

The word “safe” has a specific definition. That definition is fixed and is not open to discussion. It does not change from person to person, it is fixed by society. That is a fact and trust me on this one, words are the tools of my trade.

“Safe” means: (with reference to the Webster's English Dictionary which I believe is the first source Amercian Courts will turn to should there be a dispute over the meaning of a word)

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SAFE
1. • adjective 1. Free from harm, injury or risk; untouched or unthreatened by danger or injury; unharmed; unhurt secure; whole.

What everyone is trying to say is that skydiving does not match that definition. While skydiving you are not “free from risk”; you are not “unthreatened by danger”. You therefore cannot be “safe” according to its correct definition.

If you want to say skydiving is “safe enough” or that you “feel safe” then that is fine. The definition there is subjective. You can mess with the meaning of those phrases all you like. Because of the fact that these phrases are subjective, people aren't going try to argue with you. They may be worried that you don’t have all the facts on which to base your assessment, but it is still your assessment to make. You don’t have the same liberty to modify the word “safe” – only “society” makes up the definition for that word and society's decision on that is reflected in the contents of its dictionaries.

The argument here is essentially at cross-purposes again, over the meaning of a word.

[Remster 24]

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Is it because of years in the sport?

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yes


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Years in the sport does not tell you any more about the risks of the sport.

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huh? i must have ditched that day in logic 101.

A famous organizer in CA says that you're a tourist until you've spent 10 years in this sport. She doesnt mean it as an insult, nor do I, but it goes to show that you need YEARS of exposure to really understand what skydiving is about. Many, many, many of you will not jump more then 1, 2 or 3 years. Again, no insult meant, just facts based on the past and present trends. And alot of the people who stop jumping after a while do so when they come to the real realization that this sport kills.

Its not about the more experienced jumper being more inteligent, but realy, you need to put your time in to be able to form a fact-based opinion.

Remster

[Ron 7]

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First...what you're saying is that you believe that I, by virtue of believing the sport is safe, am more dangerous than someone who believes that the sport is dangerous...? So if two people are sitting side by side with the same experience and jump numbers and wingloading..and one said it's safe and one said it's unsafe...that the person who thinks it's unsafe is somehow a safer jumper?

YES...

We have two folks Saftey boy and Danger girl sitting at the DZ....They both have freyed closing loops. Danger girl says "It will be fine its not that bad."
Saftey boy replaces it knowing it COULD lead to a horseshoe.

They are walking to the plane. Its windy.
Saftey boy says "Its windy...maybe to windy for me to jump even though its under the BSR limits...I'm not going to jump today"
Danger girl gets on the plane.

Both are under canopy. Its a bad spot.
Saftey boy does not think he can make it back so he bails and lands off safely...Danger girl pushes it and becomes a panic turn injury or fatality.

You getting it yet? I could go on. Saftey is in the mind set. Saftey is not buying a CYPRES...It is a way of thinking.

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to think that you're somehow SAVING people by saying over and over how dangerous it is....THAT is naive.

No, to sit there and think skydiving is safe is naive. To sit there in the face of all these folks with thousands of jumps telling you something is not safe, and you not listening is foolish.

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And you aren't saving anyone or making anyone safer by insisting that this is an incredibly dangerous sport...

If I get ONE person to make the safer choice by making them realize that it is a dangerous sport...Then I have done my job. I don't have to convince you...I doubt I could anyway....I just hope I don't read about you.

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but I am good at eating humble pie. when I hit 500 jumps....I will come let you know what I think. You could be right..I could change my risk assessment opinion...but we will have to wait another year or two to see.

Well admiting you may not be right is a big step.
I hope to see you in a few hundered more jumps.

For the record...I thought it was safe at one time. Till a buddy of mine with several hundered more jumps than me said something along the lines of my sig line.....Winsor has saved my ass more than once.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[elfanie 0]

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We have two folks Saftey boy and Danger girl sitting at the DZ....They both have freyed closing loops. Danger girl says "It will be fine its not that bad."
Saftey boy replaces it knowing it COULD lead to a horseshoe.

*boggles* HUH????
Umm...NO! Just because someone (I) believe that the sport is safe does NOT mean we take unnecessary chances. It is entirely possible that someone (I) believe that the sport is safe because of the fact that we are ultra-conservative and do not take any unnecessary chances...

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They are walking to the plane. Its windy.
Saftey boy says "Its windy...maybe to windy for me to jump even though its under the BSR limits...I'm not going to jump today"
Danger girl gets on the plane.

Why would you assume that the one who believes that skydiving is safe would get on the plane? I ground MYSELF at 15MPH..even when others with less jumps than myself are still jumping.

Your ASSumptions are way off base.

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You getting it yet? I could go on. Saftey is in the mind set. Saftey is not buying a CYPRES...It is a way of thinking.

No, my friend...it is YOU who is not getting it.

You're right..safety is a mind set...and believing that skydiving is safe in no way implies that you are careless. Like I said...it's quite probable that I feel it's safe BECAUSE of the precautions that I take.

I have only jumped one DZ so far. Why? Because I don't feel comfortable yet jumping another DZ..I want more experience. I went to Eloy for the boogie (I live less than an hour away)....did I jump? No. Why? Because I didn't feel ready for it and didn't feel like it would be safe for me to do so. I just recently downsized to a 190 canopy...my exit weight is around 165. EVERYONE...DZO, S&TA, instructors, master rigger....tells me that the canopy is too big and I should downsize. Have I? no. Why? Because even though they said that I CAN...I don't feel ready.

Lets give another possibility....the person who believes the sport is dangerous shrugs at downsizing and says, "Anybody can get killed at any time even if they do everything right...so why not downsize? Why not jump high winds? I mean...this sport is dangerous no matter what you do, so why not push it a little bit."

yes, I beleive the sport is safe. Yes, I believe that there are many in the sport that are unsafe...even if they are kick-butt awesome skydivers, they are doing things that I consider unsafe. (ie. things that introduce additional risks such as BASE, swooping, etc)

But your assumption that if someone believes that this sport is safe that they would then turn around and be reckless...that's rediculous.

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If I get ONE person to make the safer choice by making them realize that it is a dangerous sport...Then I have done my job. I don't have to convince you...I doubt I could anyway....I just hope I don't read about you.

I believe that your assumption that making someone say that it's a dangerous sport is going to make them a safer skydiver or make safer choices is highly inaccurate. A noble goal....but a little midguided. Your assumption that me, thinking skydiving is safe, means that I make reckless decisions is very inaccurate.

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Well admiting you may not be right is a big step.
I hope to see you in a few hundered more jumps.

sheesh...I know that I could ALWAYS be wrong about things...no matter what it is.

As for seeing me in a few hundred more jumps...hopefully I'll get my comfort level up to coming to Zhills in the near future. Then we can duke it out in person..

(and maybe then you'll see that I'm not the wack-job you think that I am. )

--------------------------------------------
Elfanie
My Skydiving Page
Fly Safe - Soft Landings

[Ron 7]

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Ron amuses me...in a wierd twisted way, I like the guy

And I kinda like you....I really wish you would come around faster...that way you WILL be here in 10 years...but I'll wait........Has it happend yet? No?...OK I'll wait.........Now? No? DAMN!

I have no paitence...I tried to speed read a few books on learning paitence...But I could not find the cliff notes so I dropped the project.

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Nobody has ever said why he is better able to form an opinion about the safety/dangers of skydiving than I am?

It is my experience....Which is a combination of years and jumps in this sport.

You are a doula right? Well I have never given birth, been in a room where it has happend and I don't even have kids. I do practice making kids every chance I get however.

Now if I were to tell you that natural births done outside of a hospitall are dangerous...I would not have the experience to debate that with you. BTW I really do feel that way, but Im not going to tell you its dangerous. I would rather listen to your side of it. I would keep my mouth shut and listen and only open my mouth to ask questions.

Would you give credit to my claim that natural births are dangerous?

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[elfanie 0]

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As an example :
A car mechanic can also form opinions about whether your car is safe. But would you go to a doctor and ask him if your car is safe?
If your doctor said "I have the same car as you and I feel the risks involved in driving it are acceptable", but the mechanic said "it's a death trap", who would you believe?

Neither.
I'd research the vehicle myself...listen to what the mechanic had to say, listen to what the doctor had to say, research what points they made to find out the accuracy and any additional information I could...
then I'd form my own opinion.

I wouldn't automatically listen to the mechanic just because he's a mechanic.

And yes...I question doctors about every single thing, too...and many many times have found them to be wrong (and not just about opinions, wrong about factual things).

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Sometimes it can take years to absorb all the information needed to make a proper assessment.

I agree with this statement....sometimes it can take years to learn the necessary information to form opinions because there's so much information to take into account and assess.

And if Ron (or anyone) offered additional information, i'd be grateful. If there was a bunch of stuff that he or others felt that I was somehow missing or didn't understand that they could point me to or share with me..I'd be every so grateful. But they keep saying, "You can do everything right and still die"...I know that! "people die in this sport"...yup, I know that, too!
So what am I missing? What information am I missing that they are privy to that has made their opinions different than mine?

If you know that 4,000 babies die from walker accidents every year - do you need to think about that statement for years before forming an opinion about walkers?
(I made that statistic up for the sake of this discussion)
If I know that ultrasounds have been used on pregnant women for the past 45 years and have never been shown to have any adverse effects on mom or the embryo/fetus - how long do I have to think about that before forming an opinion on ultrasound safety? (and that is NOT made up)

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You have formed your opinion about this sport and Ron has his. Surely you can see why people would tend to believe Ron's opinion rather than yours.

Oh no..I absolutely understand why Ron has the opinion he does...and why others would agree with him. I never said I didn't understand it. I just said that I don't agree and that their opinion is no more right than my opinion.

(as for the person who said that defining "safe" can't be interpreted or adjusted, you HAVE to go by the dictionary definition of "safe".....with that, I'd agree that skydiving is not safe. But with that, I'd agree that nothing in life is safe...nothing at all...nothing.)

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Elfanie
My Skydiving Page
Fly Safe - Soft Landings

[elfanie 0]

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You are a doula right? Well I have never given birth, been in a room where it has happend and I don't even have kids. I do practice making kids every chance I get however.

Now if I were to tell you that natural births done outside of a hospitall are dangerous...I would not have the experience to debate that with you. BTW I really do feel that way, but Im not going to tell you its dangerous. I would rather listen to your side of it. I would keep my mouth shut and listen and only open my mouth to ask questions.

Would you give credit to my claim that natural births are dangerous?

Excellent example!!

Ok...if you were to say this...I would NOT tell you, "homebirths for lowrisk moms attended by a midwife are safer than hospital births for lowrisk moms....trust me about this, I have more experience with childbirth than you..."

What I WOULD do is point you to studies...to trials...to explain WHY they are safer. I would explain iatrogenic causes, explain risks of interventions, etc...

I wouldn't say that I know more than you do if you'd read the same studies and came to your own conclusion..
look at how many male OB's there are...how many of them do you think have EVER given birth.

there are LOTS of people who have researched both sides..and feel safer doing hospital births. that is their right..and I'd never tell them that they were wrong for feeling that way. However, if they had inaccurate information I would correct them. (ie. "Epidurals don't have any risks, and the medication doesn't get to the baby." umm...yes, they have many risks, and the medication does get to the baby....here is where you can read more about that...)

So back to skydiving...you have more experience with it than I do...undeniable and unarguable. You think I'm crazy for saying that the sport is safe and attribute it to my greenie status...which implies that there is some knowledge that you have that I don't have which should change my opinion, right?
What is that knowledge??? I would LOVE to learn...and if there are things that I need to know to be a safer jumper...I want to know them! I'm not hiding my head in the sand saying, "LALALALALA...I can't hear you!"
No..I'm begging to be told....what about the risks am I missing? What do I not know that would possibly make my opinion more like yours?

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Elfanie
My Skydiving Page
Fly Safe - Soft Landings

[velo90 0]

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I'd research the vehicle myself...listen to what the mechanic had to say, listen to what the doctor had to say, research what points they made to find out the accuracy and any additional information I could...

Smart move Now how long do you think you'd be researching about how cars are built, designed, tested etc before you were really qualified to assess whether a car is safe? I know I don't want to even start doing that all by myself.

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then I'd form my own opinion.

In the case of skydiving it appears to me that you have come to an opinion before the research is finished.

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So what am I missing? What information am I missing that they are privy to that has made their opinions different than mine?

I am afraid I have not got time (even if I could) to put all of Ron's experience, observations etc into this post.

[Ron 7]

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What I WOULD do is point you to studies...to trials...to explain WHY they are safer. I would explain iatrogenic causes, explain risks of interventions, etc...

And you need to still get info about skydiving to make a choice. You seem to have made it already.

Don't you find it interesting that almost everyone with over 1,000 jumps does not call skydiving safe?

And that the folks with less than 300 or so seem to be the ones saying it is?

Ever heard the saying "Teenagers! Tired of listening to your parents? Move out now and get a job while you still know everything!"

Same thing here. Only experience will teach you about this sport. But as for proof about its dangers. Just read the incident reports and accident reports on here.

Safe hobbies don't kill folks almost every week. I can bet that someone breaks something every week. That is not safe.

You have said that you don't have much experience....Maybe you should delay your opinion on the saftey of the sport till you have more?

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334