mr2mk1g 10 #51 January 22, 2004 Quote (as for the person who said that defining "safe" can't be interpreted or adjusted, you HAVE to go by the dictionary definition of "safe".....with that, I'd agree that skydiving is not safe. But with that, I'd agree that nothing in life is safe...nothing at all...nothing.) Quote what about the risks am I missing? What do I not know that would possibly make my opinion more like yours? YOU HAVE THE SAME OPINION. You are simply failing to fully enunciate that opinion. You are applying different meanings to the same word, that’s all this argument is about. You both agree that there are risks and you could die but Ron says that is contrary to the definition of “safe” and you say it is compatible with that definition. You are not arguing with each other about the risks in this sport YOU ARE ARGUING ABOUT A WORD. Agree the definition of that word. If you agree the definition of that word I put a case of beer on it that you agree. How about for arguments sake you agree the definition of “safe” as it appears in the Webster’s dictionary… ie as it appears in my post above. Now, with that definition in mind, “is skydiving safe?” Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
elfanie 0 #52 January 22, 2004 Quote QuoteSo what am I missing? What information am I missing that they are privy to that has made their opinions different than mine? I am afraid I have not got time (even if I could) to put all of Ron's experience, observations etc into this post. *nods* I don't want personal anecdotal experience though...I want information. ie. "did you know that ***** can happen? that **** people are injured each year who took **** steps towards safety? did you know that ***** fatalities from *** cause and...." I want information...not personal anecdotal experience. I know someone who bounced....and "did everything right"...recently. didn't know them WELL... but that doesn't make a difference. Personal anecdotes could explain why he feels the way he feels...but it doesn't mean that others should feel the same way. If I was walking down the street in new york for the first time, and got assaulted by a black man...and then, the next time I was walking down the NY street, I was assaulted by 3 black men.. it's UNDERSTANDABLE that I'd think that both NY and black men are scary and dangerous. Does that make it true? not necessarily..and it wouldn't be logical for me to point fingers at others trying to tell me that most black men aren't like that and say, "You just don't have enough experience with them like I do...so your opinions aren't as valid..." but if Ron (or anyone!) really wants to make a difference in safety for newbies....they should share safety tips and the things that can go wrong and educational information... like I said, maybe there's some information that I don't have (like researching the car, maybe I didn't look at transmissions, only at engines and fuel tanks)..and if that's the case, I want to have it! I'm doing everything I can to make this sport as safe as it can be...so if there is more information out there that I don't have that can make me a safer jumper....nobody wants me to have it more than I do!!! -------------------------------------------- Elfanie My Skydiving Page Fly Safe - Soft Landings Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
elfanie 0 #53 January 22, 2004 Quote And you need to still get info about skydiving to make a choice. You seem to have made it already. Yes... but it's not in stone. Just like you already formed an opinion about homebirths...but if I showed you information, I bet you would change your mind (or at least be open to it, whehter you did or not) Quote Don't you find it interesting that almost everyone with over 1,000 jumps does not call skydiving safe? I find it VERY fascinating!!! And that's one of the reasons I keep posting to this thread... What is it that they know that I don't?? What information am I missing?? WHY would having 1000 jumps change your opinion of the sport? (and now I'm thinking, "Crap...I thought it was 500 jumps..now he's changing it to 1000." ) Seriously...other than personal anecdotal experience (ie. because it's such a small community that the longer you're in the sport the more people you KNOW...therefore you KNOW the fatalities and it's not just a figure in a book or on the computer)...why do people with more than 1000 jumps have that opinion? I was freaked out by having someone I know bounce at my DZ...sure. And it wasn't even someone I knew well. but that doesn't change the safety/risk factors of the sport...just my perception of it. (which is the honest question...it is just your perception is different because the fatalities become more personal? Or is it because of knowledge of the sport that I'm missing? If it's the latter..why will nobody share that knowledge with me so that I might learn?) Quote Same thing here. Only experience will teach you about this sport. But as for proof about its dangers. Just read the incident reports and accident reports on here. I read every single one...and have for quite a while. and went back on skydivingfatalities and read every single one. Quote You have said that you don't have much experience....Maybe you should delay your opinion on the saftey of the sport till you have more? Not possible.. because an opinion had to be formed when I decided to jump or not for the very first time. And that opinion is addressed every single day. If someone told you to just forgo your opinion until you had at least 10,000 jumps...could YOU do that? -------------------------------------------- Elfanie My Skydiving Page Fly Safe - Soft Landings Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
elfanie 0 #54 January 22, 2004 Quote How about for arguments sake you agree the definition of “safe” as it appears in the Webster’s dictionary… ie as it appears in my post above. Now, with that definition in mind, “is skydiving safe?” Nope. with the definition of safe as it appears in the dictionary....skydiving is not safe. (oh puh-leeze, Ron...quit grabbing your heart...hell is not freezing over and you are not going to die of a heart attack!) But with that definition, I would also argue that nothing in life is safe...there is only "low risk" (which that, in and of itself, is a subjective definition)...or "lower risk" or "not dangerous enough for me to consider it a crazy activity to engage in" or "benefits outweigh given risks". -------------------------------------------- Elfanie My Skydiving Page Fly Safe - Soft Landings Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ladyskydiver 0 #55 January 22, 2004 QuoteNope. with the definition of safe as it appears in the dictionary....skydiving is not safe. (oh puh-leeze, Ron...quit grabbing your heart...hell is not freezing over and you are not going to die of a heart attack!) But with that definition, I would also argue that nothing in life is safe...there is only "low risk" (which that, in and of itself, is a subjective definition)...or "lower risk" or "not dangerous enough for me to consider it a crazy activity to engage in" or "benefits outweigh given risks". ding ding ding!!! And we have a winner. You're right. There is nothing in life that is safe. There is always a risk associated with everything we do - just in varying levels. And, we all decide what level of risk we are comfortable with and live our lives accordingly. So...the real answer is that: Skydiving is an unsafe sport that each individual has decided for themselves if they are comfortable with the level of risk that is associated with it and do what they can to mitigate the danger levels.Life is short! Break the rules! Forgive quickly! Kiss slowly! Love truly, Laugh uncontrollably. And never regret anything that made you smile. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mr2mk1g 10 #56 January 22, 2004 Cool, we all agree. I don't think anyone won or lost an argument here though. I think people were just arguing themselves in circles without clearly defining the issues in contention, when in reality there really wasnt an issue in contention. Maybe I should look again at a career as a court appointed mediator....hmmm? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
elfanie 0 #57 January 22, 2004 Quote So...the real answer is that: Skydiving is an unsafe sport that each individual has decided for themselves if they are comfortable with the level of risk that is associated with it and do what they can to mitigate the danger levels. *grabs the whip for the poor horse* If nothing in life is safe..nothing at all...then why does it need to be said, "Skydiving is an unsafe sport..." everything is unsafe with that definition...so why does that need to be said? It's almost redundant. "Baseball is an unsafe sport that each individual has decided for themselves if they are comfortable with the level of risk that is associated with it and do what they can to mitigate the danger level." In saying "skydiving is unsafe"...you're implying that the level of danger is so much above that of other activities as to require additional comments about its safety (or lack thereof). Does skydiving carry risk? of course it does! Is it the extreme of risk that someone can take in life? it can be...if you engage in certain sub-activities...but it doesn't have to be. In fact, in its basics and done conservatively, skydiving can be relatively safe (compared to other things). -------------------------------------------- Elfanie My Skydiving Page Fly Safe - Soft Landings Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
velo90 0 #58 January 22, 2004 I don't think they have the same opinion. Elfanie has already said that by your definition of safe that nothing, absolutely nothing is safe. Now I think Ron has a different opinion. He thinks that there are some things that are safe, like bowling for instance (my example not Ron's). Ron does not think skydiving is safe. elfanie thinks both Baseball and skydiving are safe. Or do I not underdstand Edited to replace bowling with baseball - I posted at the same time as elfanie's last post Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bsoder 0 #59 January 22, 2004 Quoteelfanie thinks both bowling and skydiving are safe. Relative risk. bowling is SAFER than skydiving... but you could always drop the ball on your foot... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites ladyskydiver 0 #60 January 22, 2004 QuoteRelative risk. bowling is SAFER than skydiving... but you could always drop the ball on your foot... Or accidentally release the ball on your backswing and have it go at the people behind you. Life is short! Break the rules! Forgive quickly! Kiss slowly! Love truly, Laugh uncontrollably. And never regret anything that made you smile. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites elfanie 0 #61 January 22, 2004 QuoteQuoteelfanie thinks both bowling and skydiving are safe. Relative risk. bowling is SAFER than skydiving... but you could always drop the ball on your foot... *touches nose* BINGO! Yes...bowling is much safer than skydiving... but I'd say bowling is safe...and I'd say skydiving is safe. doesn't mean they are the same. -------------------------------------------- Elfanie My Skydiving Page Fly Safe - Soft Landings Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites velo90 0 #62 January 22, 2004 QuoteYes...bowling is much safer than skydiving... but I'd say bowling is safe...and I'd say skydiving is safe. doesn't mean they are the same. Could you then not take the step to say bowling is so much safer than skydiving that in effect - Skydiving is not safe Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites skybytch 259 #63 January 22, 2004 QuoteI find it VERY fascinating!!! And that's one of the reasons I keep posting to this thread... What is it that they know that I don't?? What information am I missing?? WHY would having 1000 jumps change your opinion of the sport? (and now I'm thinking, "Crap...I thought it was 500 jumps..now he's changing it to 1000." ) Seriously...other than personal anecdotal experience (ie. because it's such a small community that the longer you're in the sport the more people you KNOW...therefore you KNOW the fatalities and it's not just a figure in a book or on the computer)...why do people with more than 1000 jumps have that opinion? Because someone with 1000 jumps has been in the air 1000 times and has likely seen some wierd shit happen, probably more than once. Enough wierd shit to know that regardless of how careful they are, regardless of how conservative they are, regardless of anything within their control... shit can happen to them. Then there's time in sport. Someone who's been jumping for less than a year, at one dropzone, has far less knowledge about the sport and it's dangers than does someone who's been jumping for ten years at multiple dropzones. You can't discount or ignore the value of personal anecdotes, because that's how experience is passed on. They explain to us the "whys" behind the "do's and don'ts." Someone who has a personal anecdote for many possible bad situations is going to have a different perspective on the safety of the sport than someone who has none yet. It's my opinion that the perspective of someone who's seen the worst of the sport repeatedly is more realistic and true than the perspective of someone who has yet to experience much of that. When a group of people who each individually have a lot of experience both with the bad stuff and in the sport say that skydiving isn't safe, I listen to them. Words on the internet aren't going to change your mind. Only time and experience will do that. I hope you keep jumping after it hits you that what you do isn't safe... it's as safe as you can make it, but it isn't safe. And it will hit you one day. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites elfanie 0 #64 January 22, 2004 Quote elfanie thinks both Baseball and skydiving are safe. Or do I not underdstand Edited to replace bowling with baseball - I posted at the same time as elfanie's last post Or I could say that both baseball and skydiving are unsafe... after all, what part of flinging a small hard object at 100 miles an hour towards your body seems safe to you? *ducks and runs for cover* Seriously...my point is that everything has its risks...somethings are riskier than others...but we all do a risk assessment which is an individual thing. -------------------------------------------- Elfanie My Skydiving Page Fly Safe - Soft Landings Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites velo90 0 #65 January 22, 2004 Quote*grabs the whip for the poor horse* I'm outta here, the horse has started to decompose Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Ron 7 #66 January 22, 2004 Im done with this. Feel free not to listen to the people that have much more experience than you. Feel free to say skydiving is whatever you want it to be....I really am not going to argue your false definition of a word any longer. For me and most experienced folks it is not safe, however we manage the risks and do it anyway. It is funny that wuffos think its not safe....And people with a good deal of experience think its not safe, but folks with a little experience think it is safe. It leads me to think that: 1. Wuffos don't know anything about the sport. They know that anything that involves leaving a good flying airplane. Heading at a planet at 100 mph with just some training and a fabric glider that is shoved into a bag to stop you is not safe. 2. Folks that just start jumping and get a little tiny bit of information think that it is safe. 3. Folks that have years and thousands of jumps get more information and realize that there are ways to make it safer, but the very act of throwing yourself at a fast moving planet with some cool gear is not safe. Like I have said you are out of stage one and in stage two. I'm in stage three. I hope you make it to stage three, but Im done with this stupid argument. We have told you, we have shown you, and still you refuse to believe anything other than what you and your limited knowledge know. And about this:QuoteIf I was walking down the street in new york for the first time, and got assaulted by a black man...and then, the next time I was walking down the NY street, I was assaulted by 3 black men.. it's UNDERSTANDABLE that I'd think that both NY and black men are scary and dangerous And if you have been to NY a twice and never been mugged or killed, you might think it is safe. I am done wasting my time and HH's bandwidth on this. It is clear you will not listen. don't bother responding to me."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites elfanie 0 #67 January 22, 2004 First let me say that I appreciate the reply...I really do...thank you for taking the time to address these issues with me. Quote Because someone with 1000 jumps has been in the air 1000 times and has likely seen some wierd shit happen, probably more than once. Enough wierd shit to know that regardless of how careful they are, regardless of how conservative they are, regardless of anything within their control... shit can happen to them. Why do I have to experience it to know that it can happen? I had my first reserve ride 2.5 weeks ago...but before that happened, I knew it could happen. I knew that eventually it probably would happen. Having had that happen to me doesn't increase my knowledge that it could happen any more. If I crashed and burned this next weekend...I wouldn't be laying in the hospital going, "Dang! I didn't think it could happen! now I know!" Things don't have to happen to me for me to understand that they CAN! I know it can.. Quote Then there's time in sport. Someone who's been jumping for less than a year, at one dropzone, has far less knowledge about the sport and it's dangers than does someone who's been jumping for ten years at multiple dropzones. why? serious question...not meaning to sound like a smarty pants (and darn it -this is what makes computer communication more difficult. if we were in the same room as each other, you'd see that I was seriously interested in the answer and not being beligerant or negative.) Why would someone who has less experience have less KNOWLEDGE of the dangers? If I had a friend who had read up on what can go wrong..about safety measures...about statistics...about odds and such... I wouldn't say that they had less knowledge than me just because they've never jumped...they have the same knowledge as me. Let me also clarify that I am not saying taht I hae the same knowledge as you or Ron..I'm just saying that if there is knowledge you guys have that I don't have, will you please share it? Quote You can't discount or ignore the value of personal anecdotes, because that's how experience is passed on. They explain to us the "whys" behind the "do's and don'ts." I don't discount how it might make one feel emotionally... I just discount that it actually has an impact on the actual risk of the sport. reading reports to learn what to do and not to do..THAT can effect your personal risk because you can learn... but knowing someone who bounces, while it makes the risk more emotional and appear more real, doesn't actually change the risk level of your next jump. Quote It's my opinion that the perspective of someone who's seen the worst of the sport repeatedly is more realistic and true than the perspective of someone who has yet to experience much of that. When a group of people who each individually have a lot of experience both with the bad stuff and in the sport say that skydiving isn't safe, I listen to them. Quote It can be interpreted two ways.. one is that seeing the bad things first hand can make your viewpoint more realistic and true. the other is that seeing the bad things first hand can skew your perspective in an unrealistic way and make it seem worse than it is. -------------------------------------------- Elfanie My Skydiving Page Fly Safe - Soft Landings Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites mr2mk1g 10 #68 January 22, 2004 Quote Seriously...my point is that everything has its risks...somethings are riskier than others...but we all do a risk assessment which is an individual thing. Everyone agrees with that. But that is not "safe" that is "safe enough for me". Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites MarkM 0 #69 January 22, 2004 Quote In saying "skydiving is unsafe"...you're implying that the level of danger is so much above that of other activities as to require additional comments about its safety (or lack thereof). That's because it does require additional comments about its lack of safety. Skydiving is a high energy sport, you're dealing with extreme forces sort of like racing a motorcycle at 160 mph. That's dangerous because high levels of energy are much more likely to cause leathel injuries. Unfortunately in skydiving or any other air sport, not only are you dealing with high amounts of energy when an accident occurs, when you have an impact(with the ground) all that energy ends up going into you. It's like racing a motorcycle on a track where every corner has concrete walls. If you crash you end up smashing into a wall doing 120 and all the energy goes right into your body. You don't survive that. That's why skydiving is an "extreme" sport. A lot of deaths in the sport occur because people get complacent. They get comfortable, forget about the energies involved and start to extend themselves. It's human nature to do this and even somewhat benificial, otherwise we'd be as scared shitless on our 100th jump as we were on our 1st, but when taken too far it causes accidents. Jumpers like Ron have the tag lines they do to remind themselves that the sport is dangerous and that if you don't continue to keep watch you can have a high energy accident. They bitch at young jumpers like you and me because after we get over our fears and get a little confidence, it's very easy to get complacent and take risks we shouldn't. They've seen it 100 times before and will see it 100 times more after we do our 300 jumps, get bored and go back to golfing. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites pkasdorf 0 #70 January 22, 2004 You know (MarM, Elfanie, etc, etc, etc), I think it has been a very interesting discussion but it went out of focus. I mean, the purpose of the poll was to agree or dissagree and comment on the statement: Skydiving is one of the safest risky sports Quade asked for more precision on "risky" and I added "significantly potentially deadly" to exclude those sports in which you don't expect death as a real possibility. You might be dead because of an injury playing football but you don't think of it when you decide to play football. You might be dead because of an injury skydiving and you know that can happen when you decide to skydive. That is the line I draw. So, along that line, is skydiving one of the safest risky sports? I think so. HISPA # 18 POPS # 8757 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites CanuckInUSA 0 #71 January 22, 2004 QuoteSo, along that line, is skydiving one of the safest risky sports? I think so. Compared to what other sports? It'll all depend on our different experiences and what sort of sports we've participated in (I think skydiving is more dangerous than rock climbing, but at least one other person disagrees with me). I don't think this poll is all the relevant until we have some sort of apples to apples comparison and that isn't likely to happen. Try not to worry about the things you have no control over Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites pkasdorf 0 #72 January 22, 2004 QuoteQuoteSo, along that line, is skydiving one of the safest risky sports? I think so. Compared to what other sports? It'll all depend on our different experiences and what sort of sports we've participated in (I think skydiving is more dangerous than rock climbing, but at least one other person disagrees with me). I don't think this poll is all the relevant until we have some sort of apples to apples comparison and that isn't likely to happen. I thought I had made myself clear. Those sports that when you decide to practice them you know that death is a real possibility (like BASE jumping, one of yours). That should make apples to apples comparison possible. HISPA # 18 POPS # 8757 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites elfanie 0 #73 January 22, 2004 Quote Compared to what other sports? It'll all depend on our different experiences and what sort of sports we've participated in (I think skydiving is more dangerous than rock climbing, but at least one other person disagrees with me). I don't think this poll is all the relevant until we have some sort of apples to apples comparison and that isn't likely to happen. So how about this... Everything in life carries risk. Skydiving (general) carries a more severe risk than most sports. Skydiving is not the most dangerous sport out there as there are sports that not only carry as severe of risk (death), but the likelihood of injury/death is higher. I would bet that football sees more injuries than skydiving... however, the injuries aren't as severe when compared to skydiving. (ie. *most* injuries from football are concussions, sprains, pulls, torn ligaments...*most* injuries from skydiving are breaks, crushes, contusions. In other words, the average skydiving injury is more severe than the average football injury.) However...everything in life carries risk and when doing a risk assessment of the sport of skydiving, all of us who are currently jumping and made the assessment that they are acceptable levels of risk for whatever activity of skydiving they are engaging in. (I am engaging in as safe of general skydiving as I can. others might find that their comfort level includes swooping. others still might find that their comfort level includes BASE. But we all are operating without our comfort levels of what risk is acceptable to us.) -------------------------------------------- Elfanie My Skydiving Page Fly Safe - Soft Landings Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites CanuckInUSA 0 #74 January 22, 2004 Even though I have yet to make a BASE jump, I view skydiving as a walk in the park compared to the dark side. But I also know and accept that I might not survive my next skydive. Here's how I view skydiving compared to some of the other things I do or have done (keep in mind I'm talking about people who may push a little in the sport, but aren't idiots waiting to crash). - Skydiving is an order of magnitude safer than BASE jumping. - Skydiving is safer than riding a motorcycle. - Skydiving is safer than big-wall multi-pitch rock climbing. - Skydiving is safer than ice-climbing. - Skydiving is safer than high altitude mountaineering. - General mountaineering is safer than skydiving. - Top roping (or single pitch rock climbing) is safer than skydiving. - Mountain biking is safer than skydiving. - Skiing is safer than skydiving. - Flying an airplane is safer than skydiving. - Skydiving is safer than flying an airplane in the mountains. Dang ... what else have I done which might be considered unsafe? - Skydiving is safer than unprotected sex with an unknown partner. Try not to worry about the things you have no control over Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites CanuckInUSA 0 #75 January 22, 2004 Quote(I am engaging in as safe of general skydiving as I can. others might find that their comfort level includes swooping. others still might find that their comfort level includes BASE. But we all are operating without our comfort levels of what risk is acceptable to us.) I totally agree with you here. When I was taking Hooknswoop's canopy control class last year, he mentioned comfort levels. My swooping comfort levels are much higher than a lesser experienced skydiver. But the comfort levels of a Pro Swoop Tour skydiver are way above my own. It's about risk management and tolerance ... Try not to worry about the things you have no control over Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 Next Page 3 of 7 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. 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ladyskydiver 0 #60 January 22, 2004 QuoteRelative risk. bowling is SAFER than skydiving... but you could always drop the ball on your foot... Or accidentally release the ball on your backswing and have it go at the people behind you. Life is short! Break the rules! Forgive quickly! Kiss slowly! Love truly, Laugh uncontrollably. And never regret anything that made you smile. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
elfanie 0 #61 January 22, 2004 QuoteQuoteelfanie thinks both bowling and skydiving are safe. Relative risk. bowling is SAFER than skydiving... but you could always drop the ball on your foot... *touches nose* BINGO! Yes...bowling is much safer than skydiving... but I'd say bowling is safe...and I'd say skydiving is safe. doesn't mean they are the same. -------------------------------------------- Elfanie My Skydiving Page Fly Safe - Soft Landings Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
velo90 0 #62 January 22, 2004 QuoteYes...bowling is much safer than skydiving... but I'd say bowling is safe...and I'd say skydiving is safe. doesn't mean they are the same. Could you then not take the step to say bowling is so much safer than skydiving that in effect - Skydiving is not safe Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skybytch 259 #63 January 22, 2004 QuoteI find it VERY fascinating!!! And that's one of the reasons I keep posting to this thread... What is it that they know that I don't?? What information am I missing?? WHY would having 1000 jumps change your opinion of the sport? (and now I'm thinking, "Crap...I thought it was 500 jumps..now he's changing it to 1000." ) Seriously...other than personal anecdotal experience (ie. because it's such a small community that the longer you're in the sport the more people you KNOW...therefore you KNOW the fatalities and it's not just a figure in a book or on the computer)...why do people with more than 1000 jumps have that opinion? Because someone with 1000 jumps has been in the air 1000 times and has likely seen some wierd shit happen, probably more than once. Enough wierd shit to know that regardless of how careful they are, regardless of how conservative they are, regardless of anything within their control... shit can happen to them. Then there's time in sport. Someone who's been jumping for less than a year, at one dropzone, has far less knowledge about the sport and it's dangers than does someone who's been jumping for ten years at multiple dropzones. You can't discount or ignore the value of personal anecdotes, because that's how experience is passed on. They explain to us the "whys" behind the "do's and don'ts." Someone who has a personal anecdote for many possible bad situations is going to have a different perspective on the safety of the sport than someone who has none yet. It's my opinion that the perspective of someone who's seen the worst of the sport repeatedly is more realistic and true than the perspective of someone who has yet to experience much of that. When a group of people who each individually have a lot of experience both with the bad stuff and in the sport say that skydiving isn't safe, I listen to them. Words on the internet aren't going to change your mind. Only time and experience will do that. I hope you keep jumping after it hits you that what you do isn't safe... it's as safe as you can make it, but it isn't safe. And it will hit you one day. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
elfanie 0 #64 January 22, 2004 Quote elfanie thinks both Baseball and skydiving are safe. Or do I not underdstand Edited to replace bowling with baseball - I posted at the same time as elfanie's last post Or I could say that both baseball and skydiving are unsafe... after all, what part of flinging a small hard object at 100 miles an hour towards your body seems safe to you? *ducks and runs for cover* Seriously...my point is that everything has its risks...somethings are riskier than others...but we all do a risk assessment which is an individual thing. -------------------------------------------- Elfanie My Skydiving Page Fly Safe - Soft Landings Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
velo90 0 #65 January 22, 2004 Quote*grabs the whip for the poor horse* I'm outta here, the horse has started to decompose Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 7 #66 January 22, 2004 Im done with this. Feel free not to listen to the people that have much more experience than you. Feel free to say skydiving is whatever you want it to be....I really am not going to argue your false definition of a word any longer. For me and most experienced folks it is not safe, however we manage the risks and do it anyway. It is funny that wuffos think its not safe....And people with a good deal of experience think its not safe, but folks with a little experience think it is safe. It leads me to think that: 1. Wuffos don't know anything about the sport. They know that anything that involves leaving a good flying airplane. Heading at a planet at 100 mph with just some training and a fabric glider that is shoved into a bag to stop you is not safe. 2. Folks that just start jumping and get a little tiny bit of information think that it is safe. 3. Folks that have years and thousands of jumps get more information and realize that there are ways to make it safer, but the very act of throwing yourself at a fast moving planet with some cool gear is not safe. Like I have said you are out of stage one and in stage two. I'm in stage three. I hope you make it to stage three, but Im done with this stupid argument. We have told you, we have shown you, and still you refuse to believe anything other than what you and your limited knowledge know. And about this:QuoteIf I was walking down the street in new york for the first time, and got assaulted by a black man...and then, the next time I was walking down the NY street, I was assaulted by 3 black men.. it's UNDERSTANDABLE that I'd think that both NY and black men are scary and dangerous And if you have been to NY a twice and never been mugged or killed, you might think it is safe. I am done wasting my time and HH's bandwidth on this. It is clear you will not listen. don't bother responding to me."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
elfanie 0 #67 January 22, 2004 First let me say that I appreciate the reply...I really do...thank you for taking the time to address these issues with me. Quote Because someone with 1000 jumps has been in the air 1000 times and has likely seen some wierd shit happen, probably more than once. Enough wierd shit to know that regardless of how careful they are, regardless of how conservative they are, regardless of anything within their control... shit can happen to them. Why do I have to experience it to know that it can happen? I had my first reserve ride 2.5 weeks ago...but before that happened, I knew it could happen. I knew that eventually it probably would happen. Having had that happen to me doesn't increase my knowledge that it could happen any more. If I crashed and burned this next weekend...I wouldn't be laying in the hospital going, "Dang! I didn't think it could happen! now I know!" Things don't have to happen to me for me to understand that they CAN! I know it can.. Quote Then there's time in sport. Someone who's been jumping for less than a year, at one dropzone, has far less knowledge about the sport and it's dangers than does someone who's been jumping for ten years at multiple dropzones. why? serious question...not meaning to sound like a smarty pants (and darn it -this is what makes computer communication more difficult. if we were in the same room as each other, you'd see that I was seriously interested in the answer and not being beligerant or negative.) Why would someone who has less experience have less KNOWLEDGE of the dangers? If I had a friend who had read up on what can go wrong..about safety measures...about statistics...about odds and such... I wouldn't say that they had less knowledge than me just because they've never jumped...they have the same knowledge as me. Let me also clarify that I am not saying taht I hae the same knowledge as you or Ron..I'm just saying that if there is knowledge you guys have that I don't have, will you please share it? Quote You can't discount or ignore the value of personal anecdotes, because that's how experience is passed on. They explain to us the "whys" behind the "do's and don'ts." I don't discount how it might make one feel emotionally... I just discount that it actually has an impact on the actual risk of the sport. reading reports to learn what to do and not to do..THAT can effect your personal risk because you can learn... but knowing someone who bounces, while it makes the risk more emotional and appear more real, doesn't actually change the risk level of your next jump. Quote It's my opinion that the perspective of someone who's seen the worst of the sport repeatedly is more realistic and true than the perspective of someone who has yet to experience much of that. When a group of people who each individually have a lot of experience both with the bad stuff and in the sport say that skydiving isn't safe, I listen to them. Quote It can be interpreted two ways.. one is that seeing the bad things first hand can make your viewpoint more realistic and true. the other is that seeing the bad things first hand can skew your perspective in an unrealistic way and make it seem worse than it is. -------------------------------------------- Elfanie My Skydiving Page Fly Safe - Soft Landings Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites mr2mk1g 10 #68 January 22, 2004 Quote Seriously...my point is that everything has its risks...somethings are riskier than others...but we all do a risk assessment which is an individual thing. Everyone agrees with that. But that is not "safe" that is "safe enough for me". Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites MarkM 0 #69 January 22, 2004 Quote In saying "skydiving is unsafe"...you're implying that the level of danger is so much above that of other activities as to require additional comments about its safety (or lack thereof). That's because it does require additional comments about its lack of safety. Skydiving is a high energy sport, you're dealing with extreme forces sort of like racing a motorcycle at 160 mph. That's dangerous because high levels of energy are much more likely to cause leathel injuries. Unfortunately in skydiving or any other air sport, not only are you dealing with high amounts of energy when an accident occurs, when you have an impact(with the ground) all that energy ends up going into you. It's like racing a motorcycle on a track where every corner has concrete walls. If you crash you end up smashing into a wall doing 120 and all the energy goes right into your body. You don't survive that. That's why skydiving is an "extreme" sport. A lot of deaths in the sport occur because people get complacent. They get comfortable, forget about the energies involved and start to extend themselves. It's human nature to do this and even somewhat benificial, otherwise we'd be as scared shitless on our 100th jump as we were on our 1st, but when taken too far it causes accidents. Jumpers like Ron have the tag lines they do to remind themselves that the sport is dangerous and that if you don't continue to keep watch you can have a high energy accident. They bitch at young jumpers like you and me because after we get over our fears and get a little confidence, it's very easy to get complacent and take risks we shouldn't. They've seen it 100 times before and will see it 100 times more after we do our 300 jumps, get bored and go back to golfing. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites pkasdorf 0 #70 January 22, 2004 You know (MarM, Elfanie, etc, etc, etc), I think it has been a very interesting discussion but it went out of focus. I mean, the purpose of the poll was to agree or dissagree and comment on the statement: Skydiving is one of the safest risky sports Quade asked for more precision on "risky" and I added "significantly potentially deadly" to exclude those sports in which you don't expect death as a real possibility. You might be dead because of an injury playing football but you don't think of it when you decide to play football. You might be dead because of an injury skydiving and you know that can happen when you decide to skydive. That is the line I draw. So, along that line, is skydiving one of the safest risky sports? I think so. HISPA # 18 POPS # 8757 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites CanuckInUSA 0 #71 January 22, 2004 QuoteSo, along that line, is skydiving one of the safest risky sports? I think so. Compared to what other sports? It'll all depend on our different experiences and what sort of sports we've participated in (I think skydiving is more dangerous than rock climbing, but at least one other person disagrees with me). I don't think this poll is all the relevant until we have some sort of apples to apples comparison and that isn't likely to happen. Try not to worry about the things you have no control over Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites pkasdorf 0 #72 January 22, 2004 QuoteQuoteSo, along that line, is skydiving one of the safest risky sports? I think so. Compared to what other sports? It'll all depend on our different experiences and what sort of sports we've participated in (I think skydiving is more dangerous than rock climbing, but at least one other person disagrees with me). I don't think this poll is all the relevant until we have some sort of apples to apples comparison and that isn't likely to happen. I thought I had made myself clear. Those sports that when you decide to practice them you know that death is a real possibility (like BASE jumping, one of yours). That should make apples to apples comparison possible. HISPA # 18 POPS # 8757 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites elfanie 0 #73 January 22, 2004 Quote Compared to what other sports? It'll all depend on our different experiences and what sort of sports we've participated in (I think skydiving is more dangerous than rock climbing, but at least one other person disagrees with me). I don't think this poll is all the relevant until we have some sort of apples to apples comparison and that isn't likely to happen. So how about this... Everything in life carries risk. Skydiving (general) carries a more severe risk than most sports. Skydiving is not the most dangerous sport out there as there are sports that not only carry as severe of risk (death), but the likelihood of injury/death is higher. I would bet that football sees more injuries than skydiving... however, the injuries aren't as severe when compared to skydiving. (ie. *most* injuries from football are concussions, sprains, pulls, torn ligaments...*most* injuries from skydiving are breaks, crushes, contusions. In other words, the average skydiving injury is more severe than the average football injury.) However...everything in life carries risk and when doing a risk assessment of the sport of skydiving, all of us who are currently jumping and made the assessment that they are acceptable levels of risk for whatever activity of skydiving they are engaging in. (I am engaging in as safe of general skydiving as I can. others might find that their comfort level includes swooping. others still might find that their comfort level includes BASE. But we all are operating without our comfort levels of what risk is acceptable to us.) -------------------------------------------- Elfanie My Skydiving Page Fly Safe - Soft Landings Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites CanuckInUSA 0 #74 January 22, 2004 Even though I have yet to make a BASE jump, I view skydiving as a walk in the park compared to the dark side. But I also know and accept that I might not survive my next skydive. Here's how I view skydiving compared to some of the other things I do or have done (keep in mind I'm talking about people who may push a little in the sport, but aren't idiots waiting to crash). - Skydiving is an order of magnitude safer than BASE jumping. - Skydiving is safer than riding a motorcycle. - Skydiving is safer than big-wall multi-pitch rock climbing. - Skydiving is safer than ice-climbing. - Skydiving is safer than high altitude mountaineering. - General mountaineering is safer than skydiving. - Top roping (or single pitch rock climbing) is safer than skydiving. - Mountain biking is safer than skydiving. - Skiing is safer than skydiving. - Flying an airplane is safer than skydiving. - Skydiving is safer than flying an airplane in the mountains. Dang ... what else have I done which might be considered unsafe? - Skydiving is safer than unprotected sex with an unknown partner. Try not to worry about the things you have no control over Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites CanuckInUSA 0 #75 January 22, 2004 Quote(I am engaging in as safe of general skydiving as I can. others might find that their comfort level includes swooping. others still might find that their comfort level includes BASE. But we all are operating without our comfort levels of what risk is acceptable to us.) I totally agree with you here. When I was taking Hooknswoop's canopy control class last year, he mentioned comfort levels. My swooping comfort levels are much higher than a lesser experienced skydiver. But the comfort levels of a Pro Swoop Tour skydiver are way above my own. It's about risk management and tolerance ... Try not to worry about the things you have no control over Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 Next Page 3 of 7 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. 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mr2mk1g 10 #68 January 22, 2004 Quote Seriously...my point is that everything has its risks...somethings are riskier than others...but we all do a risk assessment which is an individual thing. Everyone agrees with that. But that is not "safe" that is "safe enough for me". Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
MarkM 0 #69 January 22, 2004 Quote In saying "skydiving is unsafe"...you're implying that the level of danger is so much above that of other activities as to require additional comments about its safety (or lack thereof). That's because it does require additional comments about its lack of safety. Skydiving is a high energy sport, you're dealing with extreme forces sort of like racing a motorcycle at 160 mph. That's dangerous because high levels of energy are much more likely to cause leathel injuries. Unfortunately in skydiving or any other air sport, not only are you dealing with high amounts of energy when an accident occurs, when you have an impact(with the ground) all that energy ends up going into you. It's like racing a motorcycle on a track where every corner has concrete walls. If you crash you end up smashing into a wall doing 120 and all the energy goes right into your body. You don't survive that. That's why skydiving is an "extreme" sport. A lot of deaths in the sport occur because people get complacent. They get comfortable, forget about the energies involved and start to extend themselves. It's human nature to do this and even somewhat benificial, otherwise we'd be as scared shitless on our 100th jump as we were on our 1st, but when taken too far it causes accidents. Jumpers like Ron have the tag lines they do to remind themselves that the sport is dangerous and that if you don't continue to keep watch you can have a high energy accident. They bitch at young jumpers like you and me because after we get over our fears and get a little confidence, it's very easy to get complacent and take risks we shouldn't. They've seen it 100 times before and will see it 100 times more after we do our 300 jumps, get bored and go back to golfing. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pkasdorf 0 #70 January 22, 2004 You know (MarM, Elfanie, etc, etc, etc), I think it has been a very interesting discussion but it went out of focus. I mean, the purpose of the poll was to agree or dissagree and comment on the statement: Skydiving is one of the safest risky sports Quade asked for more precision on "risky" and I added "significantly potentially deadly" to exclude those sports in which you don't expect death as a real possibility. You might be dead because of an injury playing football but you don't think of it when you decide to play football. You might be dead because of an injury skydiving and you know that can happen when you decide to skydive. That is the line I draw. So, along that line, is skydiving one of the safest risky sports? I think so. HISPA # 18 POPS # 8757 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
CanuckInUSA 0 #71 January 22, 2004 QuoteSo, along that line, is skydiving one of the safest risky sports? I think so. Compared to what other sports? It'll all depend on our different experiences and what sort of sports we've participated in (I think skydiving is more dangerous than rock climbing, but at least one other person disagrees with me). I don't think this poll is all the relevant until we have some sort of apples to apples comparison and that isn't likely to happen. Try not to worry about the things you have no control over Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pkasdorf 0 #72 January 22, 2004 QuoteQuoteSo, along that line, is skydiving one of the safest risky sports? I think so. Compared to what other sports? It'll all depend on our different experiences and what sort of sports we've participated in (I think skydiving is more dangerous than rock climbing, but at least one other person disagrees with me). I don't think this poll is all the relevant until we have some sort of apples to apples comparison and that isn't likely to happen. I thought I had made myself clear. Those sports that when you decide to practice them you know that death is a real possibility (like BASE jumping, one of yours). That should make apples to apples comparison possible. HISPA # 18 POPS # 8757 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
elfanie 0 #73 January 22, 2004 Quote Compared to what other sports? It'll all depend on our different experiences and what sort of sports we've participated in (I think skydiving is more dangerous than rock climbing, but at least one other person disagrees with me). I don't think this poll is all the relevant until we have some sort of apples to apples comparison and that isn't likely to happen. So how about this... Everything in life carries risk. Skydiving (general) carries a more severe risk than most sports. Skydiving is not the most dangerous sport out there as there are sports that not only carry as severe of risk (death), but the likelihood of injury/death is higher. I would bet that football sees more injuries than skydiving... however, the injuries aren't as severe when compared to skydiving. (ie. *most* injuries from football are concussions, sprains, pulls, torn ligaments...*most* injuries from skydiving are breaks, crushes, contusions. In other words, the average skydiving injury is more severe than the average football injury.) However...everything in life carries risk and when doing a risk assessment of the sport of skydiving, all of us who are currently jumping and made the assessment that they are acceptable levels of risk for whatever activity of skydiving they are engaging in. (I am engaging in as safe of general skydiving as I can. others might find that their comfort level includes swooping. others still might find that their comfort level includes BASE. But we all are operating without our comfort levels of what risk is acceptable to us.) -------------------------------------------- Elfanie My Skydiving Page Fly Safe - Soft Landings Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
CanuckInUSA 0 #74 January 22, 2004 Even though I have yet to make a BASE jump, I view skydiving as a walk in the park compared to the dark side. But I also know and accept that I might not survive my next skydive. Here's how I view skydiving compared to some of the other things I do or have done (keep in mind I'm talking about people who may push a little in the sport, but aren't idiots waiting to crash). - Skydiving is an order of magnitude safer than BASE jumping. - Skydiving is safer than riding a motorcycle. - Skydiving is safer than big-wall multi-pitch rock climbing. - Skydiving is safer than ice-climbing. - Skydiving is safer than high altitude mountaineering. - General mountaineering is safer than skydiving. - Top roping (or single pitch rock climbing) is safer than skydiving. - Mountain biking is safer than skydiving. - Skiing is safer than skydiving. - Flying an airplane is safer than skydiving. - Skydiving is safer than flying an airplane in the mountains. Dang ... what else have I done which might be considered unsafe? - Skydiving is safer than unprotected sex with an unknown partner. Try not to worry about the things you have no control over Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
CanuckInUSA 0 #75 January 22, 2004 Quote(I am engaging in as safe of general skydiving as I can. others might find that their comfort level includes swooping. others still might find that their comfort level includes BASE. But we all are operating without our comfort levels of what risk is acceptable to us.) I totally agree with you here. When I was taking Hooknswoop's canopy control class last year, he mentioned comfort levels. My swooping comfort levels are much higher than a lesser experienced skydiver. But the comfort levels of a Pro Swoop Tour skydiver are way above my own. It's about risk management and tolerance ... Try not to worry about the things you have no control over Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
