tdog 0 #26 November 24, 2004 Morcyk, Quote 2)??? This question is about the cypres - right? Hey, I am just a student too - so take my comments for what they are worth.. A student cypres has a yellow button that might say student on it. An expert has a red. Expert = does not really mean expert... The first time I saw that, I thought, "someone with a wing loading of 2:1 flying an insane canopy must use that - where is the "standard" that I will use??? It seems, in the eyes of Cypres, we become experts right after student. It probably won't be a bad idea to read the Cypres instruction manual very soon, but make sure your instructors know what you are doing outside of the classroom... I read it right after I passed AFF, I wanted to know how the sucker worked... Or more specifically, I wanted to make sure I did everything right so it never needs to work. http://www.cypres2.com/userguide/CYPRES_2_users_guide_english.pdf (note - that link is for cypres2 - not the cypres1) I have taken note of if my cypres is a student model or expert model - because the rental rigs I have been using have both... Expert = 78 MPH at 750 feet. Student = less than freefall, greater than 29 MPH at 1000 feet - freefall at 750 feet. My instructors made me aware of the fact, per page 11 of the manual linked above, "that it is possible to exceed a vertical speed of 29 mph (13 meters per second) under a fully inflated canopy!" Why is this important? At 1000 feet, if you are doing some fast turns or anything that could cause your decent to be faster than 29MPH - you might end up with two canopies out, even though your main was perfect. At my point in progression, I don't see myself hitting 29 MPH below 1000 feet - but, I feel personally that it is good to know the design of the gear you are using in case murphy's law sneaks up to you... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Morcyk 0 #27 November 24, 2004 Thanks for the info guys. I did look up that cypress question last night in a catalog I got in the mail... guess they send all new USPA members these catalogs or something? The numbers you have listed there for expert/student are the same as what was in the one page ad for cypress. Hadn't really occurred to me on that 29MPH thing, but now thinking about how they've been saying that the student parachutes move at 25MPH, I can see a situation there if you're moving downwind with a somewhat strong wind... of course that's probably why I'm not allowed to jump in winds greater than 14MPH. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
gus 1 #28 November 24, 2004 QuoteHadn't really occurred to me on that 29MPH thing, but now thinking about how they've been saying that the student parachutes move at 25MPH, I can see a situation there if you're moving downwind with a somewhat strong wind... of course that's probably why I'm not allowed to jump in winds greater than 14MPH. The 29 mph figure is the vertical speed at which the Cypres is triggered. AADs (like the Cypres) work by calculating your vertical speed. The 25 mph figure was probably quoted to you as your canopy's horizontal airspeed. Furthermore, that 25 mph (if it was the airspeed) is uneffected by whether you're going up or down wind but that's been covered here many, many times. Do a search for "airspeed groundspeed". GusOutpatientsOnline.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Morcyk 0 #29 November 24, 2004 Ahh ok thanx again. That's why I come here... to learn more and occassionally be terrified by horror stories of AFF students spinning out of control lol. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhreeZone 15 #30 November 24, 2004 Student canopies typically have a forward speed of about 12-14 mph. Even heavly loaded tiny canopies barely get over 18-20 horizontal speed with out speed building inputs.Yesterday is history And tomorrow is a mystery Parachutemanuals.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nate_1979 9 #31 November 24, 2004 Quote the sport cypres does not concern you at the moment as you have to worry about the student cypres. a sport cypres activates at 750 feet. Of course, don't assume all student rigs have a student version of the cypress.... FGF #??? I miss the sky... There are 10 types of people in the world... those who understand binary and those who don't. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bigway 4 #32 November 24, 2004 Well there shows my knowledge. I guess it is different from dropzone to dropzone, it should not be though .Karnage Krew Gear Store . Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nate_1979 9 #33 November 24, 2004 QuoteWell there shows my knowledge. I guess it is different from dropzone to dropzone, it should not be though Why? I really dont understand that method of thought, granted, I have not been around very long, low jump numbers, but then again I think the point I'm about to make is very valid.. Why train on equipment that you will not be using when you get OFF of being a student? I was trained with equipment that almost exactly matched what I jump now, i.e. it had BOC Pilot Chute not Ripcord, it had the Expert Cypress, etc. etc.... I always read that people get off of being students and they get confused because suddenly there equipment has changed, .. Train the way they will jump, nobody is gonna use Ripcords and student cypress's when they get there own gear.. Train what your gonna use when your off student status while you still have instructors close by and actually watching you.. IMHO Let the flaming begin :) FGF #??? I miss the sky... There are 10 types of people in the world... those who understand binary and those who don't. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
speedy 0 #34 November 24, 2004 Just as a side note..... I test my cypres on every jump and it has passed the test over 1500 times already. It has never fired when it was not supposed to. Dave Fallschirmsport Marl Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dorbie 0 #35 November 24, 2004 I wish you'd use the appropriate terms for these, like decision altitude instead of substituting phrases like hard deck. It implies too much IMHO. Testing a cypress like this is only like testing a fire extingisher if you test it by first setting your house on fire. That's how flawed the thought process is, and you don't need to be an experienced firefighter or skydiver to know this. This is not just about a neophyte skydiving questions, I've asked my fair share of those and I'm not ashamed to admit it. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bigway 4 #36 November 24, 2004 I have asked my fair share of dumb questions as well that did not seem so dumb at the time. However you do not need to set your house on fire to test your extinguisher, you can just break the seal and squirt it. Asking if you should not pull your parachutes out to see if your cypres will fire is a lack of ability to use common sense. .Karnage Krew Gear Store . Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bigway 4 #37 November 24, 2004 QuoteI wish you'd use the appropriate terms for these, like decision altitude instead of substituting phrases like hard deck. It implies too much IMHO. We are in a skydiving forum that skydivers use. "hard deck" is an appropriate term. It is used every day in skydiving and i have never heard someone ask " what is your desicion altitude". Hard deck is a great and appropriate term and explains exactly what it means. .Karnage Krew Gear Store . Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dorbie 0 #38 November 24, 2004 QuoteI have asked my fair share of dumb questions as well that did not seem so dumb at the time. However you do not need to set your house on fire to test your extinguisher, you can just break the seal and squirt it. I know but I'm striving for an equivalent analogy and merely squirting an extinguisher doesn't come close. Here's a better one, it's like testing your sprinkler system by setting your house on fire. Work with me here Quote Asking if you should not pull your parachutes out to see if your cypres will fire is a lack of ability to use common sense. Exactly. ALthough I'd go a little bit further. It's a fatally flawed thought process. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bigway 4 #39 November 24, 2004 good man! the thing with the extinguisher is that if you test it you know that the spray comes out.....but then it is not meant to be used again. With a cypres, well if you test it and it works, how do you know your aad will work when you need it to? I think there are many qestions i think are stupid....but i understand a newbie asking them, because they are not stupid to them. If a student asked a question like this cypres thing...if you asked them what they thought about that question i bet they realise it is stupid. maybe not 'stupid' but there are many things in life that you will not go near or touch or try because you know that it is extremley dangerous. Common sense is used in everyday life.....just cause we are in an extreme sport does not mean that we should let people get way with being 'dumb'. If the student asked, should i test my reserve, fine, good question.......should i close the door before i leave?..fine good question.......should i try not opening my parachutes cause i know that is what the sport is about, but should i try not opening my parachute and wait to see if a mechanical device that a company has produced and is making money off work? um....yeah ok, you do that if you think it is right. i bet they would not. We jump out of planes people, and their is a risk involved and we do everything we can not to hit the deck and save our lives, now sitting back and taking 2 things out of the equation is dumb. If i asked my 10 year old cousin if he wants to go skydiving he would say yes. if i said to him that we will not open up either of the 2 parachutes and we will see if the automatic opener works, he would tell me that he is scared and does not want to do it. it is basic common sense. End of rant and defending my opinion. enjoy and flame me if you must. .Karnage Krew Gear Store . Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Reginald 0 #40 November 25, 2004 QuoteWhy train on equipment that you will not be using when you get OFF of being a student? I was trained with equipment that almost exactly matched what I jump now, i.e. it had BOC Pilot Chute not Ripcord, it had the Expert Cypress, etc. etc.... I always read that people get off of being students and they get confused because suddenly there equipment has changed,Quote Please explain why using a student cypress on student status is a bad thing. Why do you think a student version has different firing parameters? Why might this be beneficial or not, based on your opinion. What is the perceived difference to the student when changing over after student status? How is using a student cypress similar to converting from a ripcord to a BOC, or from going form a large canopy to a smaller one?"We've been looking for the enemy for some time now. We've finally found him. We're surrounded. That simplifies things." CP Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Paulipod 0 #41 November 25, 2004 QuoteWhy train on equipment that you will not be using when you get OFF of being a student? For the same reason that :- 1. A child would ride a bike with stabilisers. 2. Or would use a rubber ring 3. People dont run a marathon with no training 4. A degree is not the first qualification you do. People need to walk before they run Bodyflight Bedford www.bodyflight.co.uk Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites nate_1979 9 #42 November 26, 2004 Quote Please explain why using a student cypress on student status is a bad thing. Ok, student cypress not so much a bad thing, is it necessary? I dont think so, but then again I only know what my limited experiance and knowledge of what I read in these forums tells me. QuoteWhy do you think a student version has different firing parameters? Why might this be beneficial or not, based on your opinion. I dont really know why it has been determined necessary to make different settings, but obviosly the majority thinks that it is, and who am I to argue, I will however throw out my two cents... To me it just seems that the student cypress would increase the risk of having something like a two out situation, .. If 750 feet is enough room for our reserve to deploy and it accomplishes the purpose it's designed for, to save our lives, why is a different setting needed for a student? It's not as though a students reserve opens slower and softer than mine is it? Granted, you might get hurt with such a low opening, but it has still done what it was designed to (hopefully), you are still alive, this is why we are supposed to act as though we HAVE no aad is it not? FGF #??? I miss the sky... There are 10 types of people in the world... those who understand binary and those who don't. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites nate_1979 9 #43 November 26, 2004 QuoteQuoteWhy train on equipment that you will not be using when you get OFF of being a student? For the same reason that :- 1. A child would ride a bike with stabilisers. 2. Or would use a rubber ring 3. People dont run a marathon with no training 4. A degree is not the first qualification you do. People need to walk before they run Ok, a child without stabilizers (training wheels) would surely get hurt on a bike, *UNLESS* he had someone holding him the whole time (sounds like AFF to me).. Who said anything about skydiving with no training? Really, the point is, it seems to me that it would be better to TRAIN a student with real world current equipment while instructers ARE there really watching them rather than train on something that you just are not going to use once off student status... FGF #??? I miss the sky... There are 10 types of people in the world... those who understand binary and those who don't. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Paulipod 0 #44 November 26, 2004 Ok, maybe the analogies were not the best, but my message was - slowly slowly at first. A student cypress / pulling high / larger canopies / ripcods not throw out all make it easier and safer for the newbie. More decision time is good. Also ripcords dont rely as much on body position.... with a spring loaded main there is a better chance of an inflation over a bridle wrapped around your arm. So in short - I dont believe it is wise to train people of the same gear that they will PROGRESS (being the keyword) to. Bodyflight Bedford www.bodyflight.co.uk Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Remster 24 #45 November 26, 2004 QuoteTo me it just seems that the student cypress would increase the risk of having something like a two out situation, .. If 750 feet is enough room for our reserve to deploy and it accomplishes the purpose it's designed for, to save our lives, why is a different setting needed for a student? Its not. Both are set for 750 feet. The main difference between the 2 is activation freefall speed. Please read the manuel prior to making your jugements: http://www.cypres2.com/userguide/CYPRES_2_users_guide_english.pdfRemster Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Ron 7 #46 November 26, 2004 QuoteOk, a child without stabilizers (training wheels) would surely get hurt on a bike, *UNLESS* he had someone holding him the whole time (sounds like AFF to me).. Who said anything about skydiving with no training? Really, the point is, it seems to me that it would be better to TRAIN a student with real world current equipment while instructers ARE there really watching them rather than train on something that you just are not going to use once off student status... Simple, becasue if a student fucks up under a big canopy, they might get the chance to fuck up later. If we put them out on hot rods, they may not live long enough to fly it correctly. Given the option of putting my dad (A rated comercial pilot) out on a Stiletto 150 or a Navigator 240....I'd rather have him on the Nav. Same goes with anyone I care about. Bigger canopies allow the person to make small mistakes instead of getting really hurt or dead. You don't see new pilots learning in an Extra 330. Most kids don't learn to drive in a Corvette."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites nate_1979 9 #47 November 27, 2004 QuoteQuoteOk, a child without stabilizers (training wheels) would surely get hurt on a bike, *UNLESS* he had someone holding him the whole time (sounds like AFF to me).. Who said anything about skydiving with no training? Really, the point is, it seems to me that it would be better to TRAIN a student with real world current equipment while instructers ARE there really watching them rather than train on something that you just are not going to use once off student status... Simple, becasue if a student fucks up under a big canopy, they might get the chance to fuck up later. If we put them out on hot rods, they may not live long enough to fly it correctly. Given the option of putting my dad (A rated comercial pilot) out on a Stiletto 150 or a Navigator 240....I'd rather have him on the Nav. Same goes with anyone I care about. Bigger canopies allow the person to make small mistakes instead of getting really hurt or dead. You don't see new pilots learning in an Extra 330. Most kids don't learn to drive in a Corvette. I dont know where all of the canopy size talk came from, as I never said anything about that, ... I do agree that big canopies are great, I would not have wanted to jump a small canopy while learning eather, and I still dont. With mistakes I have made, the large canopy (Nav 260 usually) used while a student had probably saved my ass a couple of times. FGF #??? I miss the sky... There are 10 types of people in the world... those who understand binary and those who don't. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites nate_1979 9 #48 November 27, 2004 Quote Also ripcords dont rely as much on body position.... with a spring loaded main there is a better chance of an inflation over a bridle wrapped around your arm. So in short - I dont believe it is wise to train people of the same gear that they will PROGRESS (being the keyword) to. I see your point, but I see mine too... It probably has something to do with what we see, you probably see the "PROGRESS" to different gear method, and the places I jump at I see the "Start with pilot chutes etc" method.. As I recent student (who is still always learning btw ) I am happy that I got to start off with gear that is very simular to what I own now, only real difference in that gear being canopy sizes.. Just my opinion I guess FGF #??? I miss the sky... There are 10 types of people in the world... those who understand binary and those who don't. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Ron 7 #49 November 27, 2004 QuoteI dont know where all of the canopy size talk came from, as I never said anything about that, ... I do agree that big canopies are great, I would not have wanted to jump a small canopy while learning eather, and I still dont. With mistakes I have made, the large canopy (Nav 260 usually) used while a student had probably saved my ass a couple of times. Sorry I had two replies going at the same time...I got my mo crossed with my jo."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Morcyk 0 #50 November 27, 2004 Quote Student canopies typically have a forward speed of about 12-14 mph. Even heavly loaded tiny canopies barely get over 18-20 horizontal speed with out speed building inputs. Ahh I know where I got that 25mph number... I was thinking it was either 25 or 29, which I know realize 29 was the number I was thinking of.... I think they told us roughly 15mph for the max canopy speed so with a max wind speed of 14mph for us students, we could still move forward upwind. I probably just added the 2 figures up for some strange reason. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1 2 3 Next Page 2 of 3 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. 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Paulipod 0 #41 November 25, 2004 QuoteWhy train on equipment that you will not be using when you get OFF of being a student? For the same reason that :- 1. A child would ride a bike with stabilisers. 2. Or would use a rubber ring 3. People dont run a marathon with no training 4. A degree is not the first qualification you do. People need to walk before they run Bodyflight Bedford www.bodyflight.co.uk Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nate_1979 9 #42 November 26, 2004 Quote Please explain why using a student cypress on student status is a bad thing. Ok, student cypress not so much a bad thing, is it necessary? I dont think so, but then again I only know what my limited experiance and knowledge of what I read in these forums tells me. QuoteWhy do you think a student version has different firing parameters? Why might this be beneficial or not, based on your opinion. I dont really know why it has been determined necessary to make different settings, but obviosly the majority thinks that it is, and who am I to argue, I will however throw out my two cents... To me it just seems that the student cypress would increase the risk of having something like a two out situation, .. If 750 feet is enough room for our reserve to deploy and it accomplishes the purpose it's designed for, to save our lives, why is a different setting needed for a student? It's not as though a students reserve opens slower and softer than mine is it? Granted, you might get hurt with such a low opening, but it has still done what it was designed to (hopefully), you are still alive, this is why we are supposed to act as though we HAVE no aad is it not? FGF #??? I miss the sky... There are 10 types of people in the world... those who understand binary and those who don't. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nate_1979 9 #43 November 26, 2004 QuoteQuoteWhy train on equipment that you will not be using when you get OFF of being a student? For the same reason that :- 1. A child would ride a bike with stabilisers. 2. Or would use a rubber ring 3. People dont run a marathon with no training 4. A degree is not the first qualification you do. People need to walk before they run Ok, a child without stabilizers (training wheels) would surely get hurt on a bike, *UNLESS* he had someone holding him the whole time (sounds like AFF to me).. Who said anything about skydiving with no training? Really, the point is, it seems to me that it would be better to TRAIN a student with real world current equipment while instructers ARE there really watching them rather than train on something that you just are not going to use once off student status... FGF #??? I miss the sky... There are 10 types of people in the world... those who understand binary and those who don't. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Paulipod 0 #44 November 26, 2004 Ok, maybe the analogies were not the best, but my message was - slowly slowly at first. A student cypress / pulling high / larger canopies / ripcods not throw out all make it easier and safer for the newbie. More decision time is good. Also ripcords dont rely as much on body position.... with a spring loaded main there is a better chance of an inflation over a bridle wrapped around your arm. So in short - I dont believe it is wise to train people of the same gear that they will PROGRESS (being the keyword) to. Bodyflight Bedford www.bodyflight.co.uk Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Remster 24 #45 November 26, 2004 QuoteTo me it just seems that the student cypress would increase the risk of having something like a two out situation, .. If 750 feet is enough room for our reserve to deploy and it accomplishes the purpose it's designed for, to save our lives, why is a different setting needed for a student? Its not. Both are set for 750 feet. The main difference between the 2 is activation freefall speed. Please read the manuel prior to making your jugements: http://www.cypres2.com/userguide/CYPRES_2_users_guide_english.pdfRemster Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 7 #46 November 26, 2004 QuoteOk, a child without stabilizers (training wheels) would surely get hurt on a bike, *UNLESS* he had someone holding him the whole time (sounds like AFF to me).. Who said anything about skydiving with no training? Really, the point is, it seems to me that it would be better to TRAIN a student with real world current equipment while instructers ARE there really watching them rather than train on something that you just are not going to use once off student status... Simple, becasue if a student fucks up under a big canopy, they might get the chance to fuck up later. If we put them out on hot rods, they may not live long enough to fly it correctly. Given the option of putting my dad (A rated comercial pilot) out on a Stiletto 150 or a Navigator 240....I'd rather have him on the Nav. Same goes with anyone I care about. Bigger canopies allow the person to make small mistakes instead of getting really hurt or dead. You don't see new pilots learning in an Extra 330. Most kids don't learn to drive in a Corvette."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nate_1979 9 #47 November 27, 2004 QuoteQuoteOk, a child without stabilizers (training wheels) would surely get hurt on a bike, *UNLESS* he had someone holding him the whole time (sounds like AFF to me).. Who said anything about skydiving with no training? Really, the point is, it seems to me that it would be better to TRAIN a student with real world current equipment while instructers ARE there really watching them rather than train on something that you just are not going to use once off student status... Simple, becasue if a student fucks up under a big canopy, they might get the chance to fuck up later. If we put them out on hot rods, they may not live long enough to fly it correctly. Given the option of putting my dad (A rated comercial pilot) out on a Stiletto 150 or a Navigator 240....I'd rather have him on the Nav. Same goes with anyone I care about. Bigger canopies allow the person to make small mistakes instead of getting really hurt or dead. You don't see new pilots learning in an Extra 330. Most kids don't learn to drive in a Corvette. I dont know where all of the canopy size talk came from, as I never said anything about that, ... I do agree that big canopies are great, I would not have wanted to jump a small canopy while learning eather, and I still dont. With mistakes I have made, the large canopy (Nav 260 usually) used while a student had probably saved my ass a couple of times. FGF #??? I miss the sky... There are 10 types of people in the world... those who understand binary and those who don't. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nate_1979 9 #48 November 27, 2004 Quote Also ripcords dont rely as much on body position.... with a spring loaded main there is a better chance of an inflation over a bridle wrapped around your arm. So in short - I dont believe it is wise to train people of the same gear that they will PROGRESS (being the keyword) to. I see your point, but I see mine too... It probably has something to do with what we see, you probably see the "PROGRESS" to different gear method, and the places I jump at I see the "Start with pilot chutes etc" method.. As I recent student (who is still always learning btw ) I am happy that I got to start off with gear that is very simular to what I own now, only real difference in that gear being canopy sizes.. Just my opinion I guess FGF #??? I miss the sky... There are 10 types of people in the world... those who understand binary and those who don't. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 7 #49 November 27, 2004 QuoteI dont know where all of the canopy size talk came from, as I never said anything about that, ... I do agree that big canopies are great, I would not have wanted to jump a small canopy while learning eather, and I still dont. With mistakes I have made, the large canopy (Nav 260 usually) used while a student had probably saved my ass a couple of times. Sorry I had two replies going at the same time...I got my mo crossed with my jo."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Morcyk 0 #50 November 27, 2004 Quote Student canopies typically have a forward speed of about 12-14 mph. Even heavly loaded tiny canopies barely get over 18-20 horizontal speed with out speed building inputs. Ahh I know where I got that 25mph number... I was thinking it was either 25 or 29, which I know realize 29 was the number I was thinking of.... I think they told us roughly 15mph for the max canopy speed so with a max wind speed of 14mph for us students, we could still move forward upwind. I probably just added the 2 figures up for some strange reason. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
