Being a Responsible Seller

[TALONSKY 0]

I would do not think there really should be a specific jump number cut off (I have seen people with 600 jumps that land pretty scary still). I think ask them what they fly how long they have been flying it and the number to their local DZ with the name of the S&TA. I would think any good canopy pilot would not be offended that you wanted to check their story out and anyone that is lying to you would get upset. It would be up to you (weather to or not to check their story out) but their reaction to this question should give you an indication to how truthfull they are. I know personally when I bought my Xaos 98 I had already talked to the S&TA for a reference just incase.
Kirk

[CanuckInUSA 0]

Jump numbers are an indication of experience, not skill.

I wouldn't sell your Stiletto 107 to anyone with under 300 jumps. But we're all different with different backgrounds (some of us were pilots before we were jumpers as an example). So some newbies are very heads up and on the ball while some so called experienced people have just poor canopy control skills. If the person in question has received canopy control coaching, and seems to have the right attitude, then sure sell it to them. Otherwise we must bite the bullet and not sell it to them. I'm sure one day in the not too distant future I will be in a similar boat when it comes time for me to sell my Velocity 111 (it's actually under loaded). And time will tell as to how many people are interested in it and how motivated I am to sell it. But I do know that it is NOT a canopy for newbies and intermediates.

Try not to worry about the things you have no control over

[ianmdrennan 2]

Well, like some of the posters have already said it isn't only about jump numbers. But even with that in mind I wouldn't sell that canopy to someone with less than 500 jumps - no matter the wingloading.

Thereafter I'd still call the DZO and/or S&TA to confirm the person was ready for it. Like Phree said, their previous canopy would also have a lot to do with it. If they were skipping a bunch of canopy sizes I'd probably not sell it to them either.

Ultimately I'd make my decision on whether or not I thought they weren't ready for it (based on the limited info I'd have). If I felt I'd done everything reasonable to make sure I wasn't intentionally putting them in over their heads I'd make the sale.

In the end, it's whatever you feel comfortable with and believe IMO. Like stated elsewhere in this thread, I feel a certain amount of moral responsibility so I'd want to make sure my conscious was clean.

Blues,
Ian

Performance Designs Factory Team

[mattjw916 2]

You really can't set a cutoff point IMO... I know some people with over a 1000 jumps that I wouldn't want to see jump it. (Not that I would either though).

If it is such a huge concern for you, don't sell it to anyone you don't personally know.

If I was iffy about a sale, I would just call the S&TA of their home DZ and give them a heads-up after the sale was complete, but I'd still sell it to them. Besides, just because someone buys a canopy, doesn't mean they are going to jump it. I know a few people that just buy stuff to resell it somewhere else. I have even thought about picking up a canopy since it was a good deal and throwing it in the closet for a couple seasons (esp if the color was right).

My $0.02.

NSCR-2376, SCR-15080

[ianmdrennan 2]

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You really can't set a cutoff point IMO...

Yes you can. Manufacturers do, why shouldn't a second hand seller?

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I know some people with over a 1000 jumps that wouldn't want to see jump it.

I agree 100%. Jumps definitely aren't everything in that if someone meets the "minimum" then that doesn't automatically make them ready. However, if someone doesn't meet the minimum they aren't ready period IMO.

edit: Don't confuse not ready with "definitely will frap in". I know plenty of people who made poor choices. Some made it through, realized they made poor choices and had to go back and relearn. Others didn't make it through at all. One way or another you have to stop and learn.

Blues,
Ian

Performance Designs Factory Team

[Remster 24]

As a seller, I'd follow the 1.x load for x00 jump rule of thumb, so 500 jumps for a 1.5 load. BUT, a stileto 107 is a small caopy, and I'd check what the previous canopy that person was jumping too.

I dont want to go to the end of the earth to qualify a buyer, but, I'd also want to make sure its not a complete FUBAR sale...

Remster

[lawrocket 3]

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For some 2000 years society has got by just fine with "Caveat Emptor" as the rule.

Yeah, it did. Then the Progressive movement started in the US in the late 19th and early 20th centuries. While it still applies in many circumstances now, "caveat auctor" is far more appropriate.

My wife is hotter than your wife.

[mattjw916 2]

"Caveat auctor" huh? hmmph... let the author beware?

Caveat venditor seems more appropriate if you are going for a contrasting view.

Try this on for size. If you are selling someone a fast car do you call their friends/family/high school driver's ed teacher? Would their family sue you if they killed themselves in it due to negligence? Maybe? Would they win? Not likely.

NSCR-2376, SCR-15080

[skybytch 259]

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Would they win? Not likely.

Doesn't matter if they win or not. Know how much it costs to defend a lawsuit?

[mattjw916 2]

Do you know how much it costs to file one? It goes both ways.

NSCR-2376, SCR-15080

[Jimbo 0]

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Have you ever told someone (after questioning) that you would not sell them the canopy?

I recently sold a Crossfire 2 here on dz.com and turned down two sellers due to their lack of experience. It took a bit longer to sell it, of course, but I feel better knowing that it went to someone with 600 jumps and not someone with 100 or 200.
-
Jim

"Like" - The modern day comma
Good bye, my friends. You are missed.

[Jimbo 0]

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Besides, just because someone buys a canopy, doesn't mean they are going to jump it.

In greater than 99% of the cases it does mean that they're going to jump it.

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I have even thought about picking up a canopy since it was a good deal and throwing it in the closet for a couple seasons (esp if the color was right).

I've seen that firsthand. "I'm not going to jump it until I'm ready", 3 weeks later he was jumping it and absolutely terrified of it. I don't know if this guy jumps at all anymore.

-
Jim

"Like" - The modern day comma
Good bye, my friends. You are missed.

[mattjw916 2]

More made up statistics... they make the internet go 'round I guess.

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I've seen that firsthand. "I'm not going to jump it until I'm ready", 3 weeks later he was jumping it and absolutely terrified of it. I don't know if this guy jumps at all anymore.

If he wasn't ready, where was the S&TA, his friends, etc, etc... if he felt like he wasn't ready for it after a few jumps, why didn't he swap back to his previous canopy? Sounds like there was a lot more going on in that case.

NSCR-2376, SCR-15080

[Jimbo 0]

*sigh*



-
Jim

"Like" - The modern day comma
Good bye, my friends. You are missed.

[karenmeal 0]

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If he wasn't ready, where was the S&TA, his friends, etc, etc... if he felt like he wasn't ready for it after a few jumps, why didn't he swap back to his previous canopy? Sounds like there was a lot more going on in that case.

This reminds me of a friend of mine who has been rushing to downsize since he graduated student progression. I have tried every single approach to get him to calm down, to no avail. Last week he told me that he was going to buy another canopy and put it in the closet for a while. I rolled my eyes at him and told him that would never work, if he bought it he wouldn't be able to exercise the self-restraint.

Pardon me if this comparison offends you, but from personal experience, its just like getting a huge chocolate cake and setting it right in front of a person with a weight problem. Its going to get eaten.

Better to just not buy it, or in my case, not sell it to the person. (In my opinion.)

-Karen

"Life is a temporary victory over the causes which induce death." - Sylvester Graham

[mr2mk1g 10]

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"Caveat auctor" huh? hmmph... let the author beware?
Caveat venditor seems more appropriate if you are going for a contrasting view.

"Auctor" can also be translated as "originator" which makes far more sense than "vendor" considering it's not necessarily the vendor who gets sued... but the "originator" of the item; be that the manufacturer, the dealer, the vendor - whoever's appropriate under the circumstances.

[mr2mk1g 10]

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Do you know how much it costs to file one? It goes both ways.

Ever heard of conditional fee arrangements? AKA "no-win-no-fee" arrangements? i.e. we'll bring your lawsuit for free but take a cut of your damages if you win.

Think they exist for defendants? Nope... cos there are no damages from which to take a cut.

What if you succeed in your defence – you get your costs paid right? Oh, so sorry – the claimants are broke. Sucks to be you.

Still think it's just as hard to bring a case as it is to defend a case?

[jumpwally 0]

I tend to agree with Kallend here,, It would be interesting to get a round table discussion with the folks who are still alive but paralized,,and see how and what they would recommend to us.......

smile, be nice, enjoy life
FB # - 1083

[Hooknswoop 19]

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If someone wants something badly enough they will always find a way to get it. The answer, as always, is education, not restrictions.

Ya, that worked well for the guy w/ the 120 and the broken back.

Derek

[lawrocket 3]

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Do you know how much it costs to file one? It goes both ways.

Not really. Let's say I decide to sue you for libel, slander, and intentional infliction of emotional distress here in Fresno. Heck, you've posted comments that were read right here, right? So I spend an hour drafting a complaint and summons, pony up 300 bucks to file it, and then ship it off to CO to have you served. All in all, 500 bucks for me to get this going.

I'll win this lawsuit, too, if you dont' respond. If you DO respond, I'll lose. But, it'll cost you. Either you better respond yourself, in which case I'll make your life hell with motion practice until you hire a lawyer (better pony up 5 grand up front, dude).

So, after 5-10 grand in attorneys fees a few months later your attorneys win that motion for summary judgment. You can now get me for 500 or 600 dollars in costs, but not your attorneys fees. This all comes after I failed to even oppose the motion for summary judgment.

Gee, isn't it nice that you've blown that cash on attorneys fees after I blew maybe a grand? After all, those 500 dollars in costs that I spent just getting it prepared and balance out with your attorneys fees - in addition to the problems you have defending it from Colorado....

You can lose your shirt winning a lawsuit, too.

My wife is hotter than your wife.

[TALONSKY 0]

I find it interesting that with your one year in the sport of skydiving you feel your opinion is better than that of people that have been in this sport much much longer. Our opinions are generated from watching people pound in or worse. The simple fact is if someone is going to downsize too fast no one can stop them. I have had countless conversations with people to just watch them run out and buy something smaller. It happens all the time.

[mattjw916 2]

At what point did I say my opinion was better!??

I was just raising points for discussion, which is the whole purpose of a forum.

Just because I have only a year or so in the sport doesn't mean I haven't been around. In the last year I have:

a. known someone that was jumping a canopy that was beyond their level and hurt themselves

b. known someone that probably will, but since they have been jumping for so long think they have all the answers

c. seen almost a half-dozen people break themselves (some right in front of me)

d. known someone who went it

So don't for a second think that I am some weekend warrior newbie that can't qualify his opinions with any experience, little though it may be. You know what though, all those people were adults, some have (had) a ton more experience than you AND me, and I don't feel sorry for them for a second. It was their choice. As was stated earlier, you can't legislate common sense.

NSCR-2376, SCR-15080

[TALONSKY 0]

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At what point did I say my opinion was better!??

Yes, you did not say it was better, however when you are bringing up counter points to the more experienced skydivers it can be preceived that way. I am by no means an expert at anything I just get tired of seeing newbies argueing about things they really do not know or have little if any real experience with.

[dayle 0]

I will agree with you that a 97 is a really small canopy, I was just using it as an example, however, jump numbers alone don't mean alot. Experience is really what counts.

When I had 50 jumps, I started flying a Stilletto as my main canopy, it was loaded at about 1.1 - 1.2.

I bought my canopy from PD through a dealer. My instructor was fine with me flying it, so was my DZO. They just told me to be carefull until I got used to it.

450 jumps later, I'm fine.

I know in this instance I may be the exception to the rule about people injuring themselves, but I dont' think you should go soley by jump numbers.

[kallend 1,643]

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If someone wants something badly enough they will always find a way to get it. The answer, as always, is education, not restrictions.

Ya, that worked well for the guy w/ the 120 and the broken back.

Derek

Better than for the guy with 9,000 jumps who is dead.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.