Does your DZ put Tandems out before and lower than fun jumpers?

[Trent 0]

Just curious. I think there may be some safety considerations that DZ's may or may not have considered with this method of organizing their loads.

Think about this:
Twin Otter DZ puts out Tandems at 10,000ft then continues to 13.5 for fun jumpers and students. Aside from the traffic issues that may or may not be a problem depending on the pilot and policies at the DZ, there is one concern that seems to be overlooked.

What do these DZ's do in case of an aircraft emergency that would require jumpers to exit the plane? Many DZ's have 1,000ft as a sport jumper bailout minimum. If I'm not mistaken, the tandem bailout minimum is 2,000ft or 2,500ft. How would a DZ with tandems in the back of the plane by the door suggest that the fun jumpers behind them get out in case of an emergency at 1,500ft? Do DZ's that do this just say everyone goes down with the ship below 2,500ft or have some technique for crawling over the tandems to get out at lower altitudes?

Maybe it's been brought up before, but I'd be interested to hear how it is handled, or if anyone may now think that this practice might be a bad idea.

Oh, hello again!

[Cudlo 0]

Can't say from personal experience, the 2 tandems I did at SDC were midweek. The first tandem the twin otter was empty except for me and another tandem. My second tandem it was just me and my TM on the otter... When I started doing AFP I am pretty sure the tandems were the first to get on.

_________________________________________
"People demand freedom of speech to make up for the freedom of thought which they avoid." - Kierkegaard

[towerrat 0]

I personally think this is bad practice. I would hate to have to step on a students' head to get the hell out, which is exactly what would happen.
bad, bad juju.....
Mass confusion= dead people.

Play stupid games, win stupid prizes!

[Amazon 7]

The one I used to jump at did... and still does.. $215 for a Tandem but you get a $10 discount for paying cash.IF you pay the EXTRA $25 you get the EXTRA altitude. Marketing goes something like this.. 30 second delay from 10,000 but for an EXTRA $25 we will take you to 12500. which doubles your freefall time... AND if you do it on a weekend when the Caravan is running we take you the EXTRA 1000 ft for free and you get a FULL 70 sec of freefall.

uh huh.. RIIIIIIGHT.

[JohnMitchell 14]

Or you can go south to the DZ that gives Tandems 13K for $165 on weekdays, $195 on weekends.

We used to do tandems from the Porter at 10,500, then the rest of the load would go up to 13K. Simpler just to do one altitude.

Interesting, Amazon, that the extra 1000 feet gets you an extra 10 seconds of freefall. Must be a real big drogue. Maybe they just take it off the bottom.

[bodypilot1 0]

When you have your own DZ you can make your own rules.




Be safe.
Ed

www.WestCoastWingsuits.com
www.PrecisionSkydiving.com

[FLYBERT71 0]

Wow. Somebodys panties are in a bunch because they didn't get to jump.

To answer Trent's question, at the DZ that Jeanne is talking about , yes we do put out tandems at 10 and 13 on the same load. The DZ isn't so big that we are running 2 Caravan's, 2 Otters, and a Skyvan at the same time. We use 1 Caravan and have not had any problem with the landing of the fun-jumpers and tandems.

But wait. Jeanne is going to be opening an up-jumper only DZ soon with 2 Otters and it's only $17 to 14k minimum. No tandems or students ever. What a deal.

"If you have time to panic, you have time to do something more productive."
Josh Whipple 7/15/70-2/10/05

[skydiverton 0]

Main reason DZ drop tandems at 10.000 and the rest at 13.000 is the TM can land, pick another rig and wait for the next plane. Did it several times. Only in case of a high opening the ground has to tell the pilot to wayt a couple of minutes.

By the way, when a jumpplane is in deep trouble at 1000ft. You will be on the ground before you know you are in trouble. With a simple engine failure at around 1000ft you have a better change in staying in the plane.
When the plane starts to spin at 1000ft. As an TM I can tell you I would take my change in jumping with my passenger and once clear of the plane pull my reserve if I have the change (time). In an uncontrollable plane you are sure you are going to die.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Using your droque to gain stability is a bad habit,
Especially when you are jumping a sport rig

[tombuch 0]

Hey Trent:

The Ranch still puts tandems out after freefallers and IAF students. It really is the safest way to handle the mix, plus the students get full altitude and will have more time for fun after the initial overload goes away.

I think you are correct that putting tandems out first increases the risk of a freefall collision, congests the traffic pattern with dissimilar parachutes, and it adds to problems in the event of an aircraft emergency. It won’t matter if the airplane is spinning at 1,000 feet, but it will be a factor with a mechanical at 2,000 – 4,000 feet.

Tandem should be the safest way to make a skydive, and if we follow all the best safety practices they can be. Unfortunately, many drop zones reduce safety margins in many small ways, and those incremental reductions add up to significantly higher risk. In my opinion, putting tandems out before up-jumpers reduces safety by at least a little bit, and it shouldn’t be done.

With that said, DZO’s can make whatever decisions they like: get ‘um out low, open ‘um low, jump in high winds, put ‘um through clouds, jam instructors on back-to-backs, slam pack jobs by unsupervised packers, slash or eliminate student training, use uncertified instructors, use ragged out gear, ignore landing patterns, whatever. Each issue is small, but they add up. A good safety program attempts to identify all the incrementals and eliminate them.

Tom Buchanan
Instructor Emeritus
Comm Pilot MSEL,G
Author: JUMP! Skydiving Made Fun and Easy

[Trent 0]

Quote

When you have your own DZ you can make your own rules.

That goes without saying doesn't it? It doesn't change the fact that something someone else is doing with THEIR DZ may be dangerous or not well thought out, does it?

Oh, hello again!

[jumpjunkie2004 0]

I just got my license last month and I had to "load" the plane.

At Skydive Orange (jumping from the Otter):

First out: RW/bellyflyers - largest group first
Then freeflyers - largest group first
Followed by: AFF students
Last out: Tandems

If the RW groups are the same size, the group pulling lower gets out first.

Jump, Land, Pack, Repeat...

[Trent 0]

My point wasn't so much about traffic and opening altitudes and congestion so much as something apparently overlooked pretty often... aircraft emergencies with tandems blocking the door, or just slow/unable to get out quickly. For every reason I can imagine, like Tom said... it just makes sense to have the tandems out last at full altitude. I just heard a few people talking about other DZ's that were putting them out low and wanted to see how common that was.

Saying something like, "Well, if there was a REAL emergency, you'd probably die anyway," or something similar just wont' work. 8 tandems in front of the door in a real emergency that required low altitude exits WILL be a problem that may end up killing sport jumpers to save a few bucks.

Still sounds like a bad idea, even if the chances are slim that it would happen.

Oh, hello again!

[DJL 232]

Quote

8 tandems in front of the door

Not to mention what that would do to the aircraft balance to have the entire load shift to the back.

"I encourage all awesome dangerous behavior." - Jeffro Fincher

[Amazon 7]

Quote

But wait. Jeanne is going to be opening an up-jumper only DZ soon with 2 Otters and it's only $17 to 14k minimum. No tandems or students ever. What a deal.

Gee do I get to put on my website.. that I have a PERFECT SAFETY RECORD too??

In spite of a fatality.. and a Tandem student with a broken leg... and an AFF student broken leg.. and how many other serious injuries requiring an ambulance ride to the hospital since YOU started jumping there.( AT least 6 I know of) .INTEGRITY would prevent me from doing something like that..

But it does not seem to be an issue at that dropzone. Honesty and Integrity go a LONG way in my book... oh are you guys STILL really taking Skyride certificates.. even though your website says you are not??????

Oh and no I am not going to be opening a DZ soon...

But I do love it when the "experienced jumpers" with a vested interest from that DZ come out of the woodwork to protest FAR too much to protect sleazy stuff.

[bodypilot1 0]

Quote

It doesn't change the fact that something someone else is doing with THEIR DZ may be dangerous or not well thought out, does it?

Then it's your choice to jump there, or NOT.

Find somewhere in the USPA BSR's where it say's you have to put tandems in the plane first so they always get out last?

There is one DZ that I know of that put's the fun jumpers out at 10 ($20 slot) and takes the tandems to 13000ft.


Be safe.
Ed

www.WestCoastWingsuits.com
www.PrecisionSkydiving.com

[FLYBERT71 0]

It's your DZ. You can put anything on your web site you want.

In the 3 years I have been there I remember one fatality, one broke ankle, and one broke pelvis by licensed jumpers, and two tandem students who broke their ankle on landing. I am not there every day and may have missed or forgotten something.

They have not taken Skyride certificates for at least a year.

As far as having a "vested interest" in the DZ, yes I do get paid for the work I do just like all of us that work there. This might come as a supprise to you but--- I LIKE MY JOB---and---I AM ACTUALLY WORKING FOR THE PEOPLE WHO TRUST ME TO INTRODUCE THEM TO THE WORLD OF SKYDIVING---I do everything I can to give them a fun, enjoyable and memorable experience because they are the one's that are paying me. I have never been asked or have even seen any of the other staff be asked to do anything unsafe. That being said, sometimes "shit happens" and no matter what any of us do this is still a dangerous sport and people can and will get hurt.

So are you saying that all DZ's should put on their sites any and all incidents/accidents that have happened?

I know the other local DZ's have had incidents/accidents happen but I don't hear you mentioning them. What's up with that. Oh wait a minute, I know, you just haven't pissed them off and gotten kicked off the DZ yet.

Honesty, Integrity, You. What word doesn't fit here?

Please let us know when your opening your perfect, licensed jumper only DZ. With $17 to 14k minimum loads.

"If you have time to panic, you have time to do something more productive."
Josh Whipple 7/15/70-2/10/05

[billvon 2,435]

>What do these DZ's do in case of an aircraft emergency that would
>require jumpers to exit the plane?

Scramble about.

This issue doesn't just come about in places that put tandems out lower. At WFFC, students and tandems often get out first. A few points:

1. It's not too hard to 'crawl over' tandems in most aircraft, with the possible exception of the non cargo door 182 and 206's.

2. At high altitude it doesn't much matter. At 1500 feet, pilots will generally not order a bailout unless the plane is going down, and at that point a TM may well decide a low bailout is preferable to a fiery crash.

[Amazon 7]

Gee I do so love the personal attacks you come up with, getting under your skin there Bucko???

ITs a bitch when you get the TRUTH told on ya aint it.

Quote

So are you saying that all DZ's should put on their sites any and all incidents/accidents that have happened?

Nope.. but to CLAIM a perfect safety record shows the general lack of honesty there. I guess its easy to lie to people who do not know any better huh Rob??

Quote

In the 3 years I have been there I remember one fatality, one broke ankle, and one broke pelvis by licensed jumpers, and two tandem students who broke their ankle on landing. I am not there every day and may have missed or forgotten something

I have seen no where near that amount of carnage at any of the other DZ's... the ones without the perfect safety records.

Nice way to minimize the severity of the ambulance responses.

As far as being banned...since you bring it up.

I left the DZ after having been verbally abused by the DZO on a Sunday.
I called them to cancel a camera helmet order that had not even been shipped yet on Monday ...and told Elaine I would no longer be jumping there since it was impossible for said DZO to treat me as a valued customer.. and he then had a hissy fit.. and banned me....BWAHAHAHAHAHAHA

When I went to pick up my gear on Wednesday they would not let me have my gear till I paid for the cancelled order.. Gee last time I checked a consumer has the right to cancel an order..especially when thier customer service involves abusing the customer or to return an item up to 3 days AFTER the purchase.

Perhaps I should just have involved the local police for the lack of integrity of the DZO in ripping me off.

What part of INTEGRITY do YOU have a problem with...since you are benifiting from the misstatements of fact on the website that holds itself out to be something it is not.

From the HOME page of his website... Last updated.7/20/05
Welcome to Skydive (Robs HOME DZ) Inc. where we provide you with the opportunity to Experience the Freedom of uninhibited, exhilarating, human flight. A professional staff will facilitate your experience at Skydive (Robs HOME DZ) and you will enjoy a high level of confidence from choosing a skydiving center that has a perfect safety record.


I have not seen any other injuries at the other DZ's other than you turning your canopy too low at Blue Skies and breaking your leg.

And a new DZ could be coming very very soon to the area.. where ALL jumpers can have fun in a safe and rewarding environment.. without the misstatement of facts.

[scrublink 0]

I work at a DZ that puts tandems out first. Some sport jumpers don't like it, until they have the plane to themselves for the last four thousand feet. We wait until tandems are on the grond to drop anyone else. I am also a pilot and know a couple things about aircraft emegencies. If you are at 1500 feet or below, you are going to stay with the plane unless you are right near the door (basically in it) or the door is open. Above that if it is a serious plane is on fire type of emergency you can bet your ass i'm leaving. I will drag my student out an fire my reserve ( and keep my fingers crossed). If it is a more benign (slow speed) type of emergency, experienced jumper will be able to go right down the middle of the aisle. If no one panics you all have a chance. While I think it is safer to have tandems in the end of the exit order I do not find this to be an unaccaptable risk. If you do then you have the right (and hopefully free will) to go somewhere else.

[Zenister 0]

Quote

We wait until tandems are on the ground to drop anyone else.

which, (unless your plane climbs very slowly half empty) has a lot slower turn around time then putting tandems out last. Slow turns equals less profit and less total jumps by everyone..

____________________________________
Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed.

[scrublink 0]

A little slower turn. The dropzone doesn't have the same number of experienced people it used to. This allows back to back for Instructors and keeps the plane turning instead of shutting down. It works at our DZ. With a different mix of experienced and tandems it might not work so well.

[billvon 2,435]

>which, (unless your plane climbs very slowly half empty) has a lot
>slower turn around time then putting tandems out last.

As this is generally a strategy to get experienced jumpers more altitude in slow-climbing aircraft, the slow climb is a pretty safe bet. If the plane climbs rapidly, it's going to be easier to put everyone out at the same altitude.

[pilotdave 0]

Quote

which, (unless your plane climbs very slowly half empty) has a lot slower turn around time then putting tandems out last. Slow turns equals less profit and less total jumps by everyone..

Not necessarily. Plane climbs faster for the last few thousand feet than it otherwise would have, and the tandem gear is down to get repacked while the plane is still climbing. Video guys can get packed up then too. I've personally never been to a DZ that puts tandems out first, but there are some good (financial) reasons to do it. At some DZs (depending on staff/gear), it may decrease turnaround time.

Dave

[FLYBERT71 0]

I just love watching you see things with your blinders on. Your going to have to try a lot harder to get under my skin. Bucko. I love that.

So what your saying is that any DZ that has any kind of incident/accident does not have a perfect record?

If that is the case then I agree with you. But do you remember the two tandem fatalities in two days at one of the other DZ's in the area? Or how about the person who dislocated their shoulder on a static line jump at another? Yep. I broke my leg. And I know it was my own fault.

I didn't design the web site or contribute anything to the information or wording in it. What do you think it should say?

The horse is dead Jeanne. You ran it over with your BIG RED DODGE. Why not dig a ditch and burry it. Then you can move on to more happy things. Holding on to so much anger and hostillity for so long has to be hard.

"If you have time to panic, you have time to do something more productive."
Josh Whipple 7/15/70-2/10/05

[Hooknswoop 19]

Quote

So what your saying is that any DZ that has any kind of incident/accident does not have a perfect record?

Wouldn't a perfect record mean zero incidents/accidents by definition? If not, then what else does 'perfect' mean?

Derek