Does your DZ put Tandems out before and lower than fun jumpers?

[billvon 2,476]

>Wouldn't a perfect record mean zero incidents/accidents by definition?

Many define that narrowly, such as "zero student fatalities."

[FLYBERT71 0]

If you use the strict definition of perfect,

being entirely without fault or defect:flawless
(Websters 7th new collegiate dictionary)

then no DZ anywhere is perfect because that would include any type of injury no matter how small.

If your using a loose definition of the word to say there have been no major life threatening injuries (in reference to tandems and students) then most DZ's can say that.

"If you have time to panic, you have time to do something more productive."
Josh Whipple 7/15/70-2/10/05

[popsjumper 2]

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...So what your saying is that any DZ that has any kind of incident/accident does not have a perfect record?

Huh??? Pretty much goes without saying, eh?
If there are any DZs out there with perfect records, please let the world know about them!

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[Amazon 7]

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I do everything I can to give them a fun, enjoyable and memorable experience because they are the one's that are paying me. I have never been asked or have even seen any of the other staff be asked to do anything unsafe

RIIIIIGHT

Oh.. I especially like the part where you dump off the low time students on solo status at the East student field... 3 miles from the airport.. with no supervision most of the time before you head on over to the airport to make your jumps. The people over there are not even guaranteed a ride back to the airport.. and they are charged an extra dollar as a landing fee. One of these days one will get a severe injury.. and some student will be laying there in severe agony or bleeding to death and no one will even notice because the experienced jumpers are all at the DZ making money and cant be bothered to notice.



Oh and pointing things like that out was considered "whining" by the DZO

[Hooknswoop 19]

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then no DZ anywhere is perfect

Exactly. Anything is misleading to whuffos.

Derek

[Amazon 7]

I would call it false advertising.. but Flybert seems to think.. its the DZ's website and they can put ANYTHING on it they want...




MMMM Take the money and run.....

[billvon 2,476]

Bert, Jeanie, could you please take this argument to PM's?

[FLYBERT71 0]

Bill your taking away all my fun. But O.K.

"If you have time to panic, you have time to do something more productive."
Josh Whipple 7/15/70-2/10/05

[Amazon 7]

ITs ok... you put out a little bait.. and see what comes out to bite.... BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA







Dayum.. I think I will go see if a big chinook will take the bait this weekend..... they are far harder to"get on"

[skydiverton 0]

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We wait until tandems are on the ground to drop anyone else.

which, (unless your plane climbs very slowly half empty) has a lot slower turn around time then putting tandems out last. Slow turns equals less profit and less total jumps by everyone..

No (or less) tandems means even less profit, which means no money to pay the DZ bills -> Unpayed bills means no jumping any more or a much higher ticketprice.
By the way, you are talking about 1 or 2 minutes a flight

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Using your droque to gain stability is a bad habit,
Especially when you are jumping a sport rig

[Brains 2]

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We wait until tandems are on the ground to drop anyone else.

which, (unless your plane climbs very slowly half empty) has a lot slower turn around time then putting tandems out last. Slow turns equals less profit and less total jumps by everyone..

Actually, it speeds it up. Since the TI's are on the ground first, they can grab another rig, another student and be waiting for the plane when it lands instead of the plane waiting on them. Plus, the TI's don't literally have to run from the landing area to get on the next load.

Never look down on someone, unless they are going down on you.

[scrublink 0]

We actually started this when we had a slow climbing aircraft. The "Super" Otter climbs fast and on most days will shut down a time or two towards the end of the day. No students left and not everyone has multiple rigs to make back to back jumps. We lost a bunch of experienced jumpers over the past couple of years due to a couple of factors and I am not sure if this would be as easy to do if we had jumpers waiting 2-3 loads to get a slot like we used to. (So sad. But that is another story.)

[riggerrob 563]

At Pitt Meadows, air traffic controllers rarely give us more than one pass, so all the jumpers exit the Cessna as it does one pass at 10,000 feet.
Like wise, ATC is trained to give our King Air one pass at 12,500 feet.

Large belly ways
small belly ways
freefliers
PFF students
tandems
birdmen.

[Zenister 0]

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We wait until tandems are on the ground to drop anyone else.

which, (unless your plane climbs very slowly half empty) has a lot slower turn around time then putting tandems out last. Slow turns equals less profit and less total jumps by everyone..

Actually, it speeds it up. Since the TI's are on the ground first, they can grab another rig, another student and be waiting for the plane when it lands instead of the plane waiting on them. Plus, the TI's don't literally have to run from the landing area to get on the next load.

it cant really 'speed it up', but it probably does slow cycle time so that more tandems can make the next load, which may result in faster tandem jumps but still means less loads/jumps total.... an extra jump run adds almost 5 min PLUS the additional time to climb to altitude.. by dropping everyone at the same altitude the plane is down and reloading before the tandems land.... of course you have to have enough jumpers (and/or TMs and passengers) to keep the cycle going, but my latest 'pet peeve' is the tendency to push back a call 10-15 min just to get 2 more tandems on the load.. it results is fewer loads, fewer jumps and ALOT more sitting around waiting for everyone, even if it adds a few more bucks per load to the DZOs pocket...

i MUCH preferred the operations where the focus was turning the plane as fast as possible, 12-14 slots was enough to send it and the 'extra' tandems started on the next load... unfortunately minimizing turn around time for the benefit of the fun jumpers doesnt seem to happen as often as it used to, but perhaps it still does at smaller DZs

____________________________________
Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed.

[scrublink 0]

We will actually send the Otter with seven people as a minimum to keep it turning. The way things are now we get about 20-25 loads a day.

[Brains 2]

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i MUCH preferred the operations where the focus was turning the plane as fast as possible, 12-14 slots was enough to send it and the 'extra' tandems started on the next load... unfortunately minimizing turn around time for the benefit of the fun jumpers doesnt seem to happen as often as it used to, but perhaps it still does at smaller DZs

We agree on this. Our new owners are trying to keep the plane turning, however it seems that the staff is so used to doing it one way that they are reluctant to change. Or just lazy

Never look down on someone, unless they are going down on you.

[rehmwa 2]

We don't, as the goal is one pass. But I like a couple of the thoughts here on a 2 pass policy (tandem pass at lower altitude).

1 - Separate pass for the tandems. nice, it keeps the 'customers' from landing out on odd spotting days. And tandems passengers don't really have a concept of the amount of freefall time they get.

2 - The TM's and cameramen get a bit extra time to gear up and train the next group (we are always waiting on the tandems to get on the plane - costs time and fuel)

3 - Lighter load last 4 thousand feet and more roomy airplane for the upjumpers, better spots as there is fewer groups. Sounds like a good deal for the experienced jumpers really. And less hassle for the TMs and vidiots. I bet the low pass cost in fuel is easily offset by the lighter load for climbing the last bit.

4 - No issues with tandems and upjumpers dealing with each other on jump run or under canopy. ("Make room for the tandems" - "Would you guys hurry up" - "go go go go go go")

For a DZ with only one or 2 big planes, it makes a lot of sense for everyone involved.

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[Brains 2]

Exactly. Now, not to diminish Trent's concern about emergency exits, i do see that as a possible problem. However all the reasons you listed are exactly why we went to the two passes. The only times we run one pass is when there are only a couple/three tandems and the instructors don't have a back to back, or when there are only one or two funjumpers and the rest tandems on the otter. The latter usually happens one or two times a day. On the long spot issue, vidiots like it too cause the tandems with video get out before tandems without. Saves the vidiots from a long spot too when there are 6 tandems all getting out at 10k.

Never look down on someone, unless they are going down on you.

[Trent 0]

Well, apparently only 8% of the responses have a DZ that does the 2 passes thing for tandems. There must be some reason that the overwhelming majority don't use this practice. While I can see where it could speed up the tandem process which in turn saves the DZ money... I feel that the negatives outweigh the benefits. Add another plane to the equation and it gets worse. For me, the aircraft emergency reason is good enough. Unlike Bill and one or two others here, I feel that in the OFF chance that something happened between 1,000 and 2500ft, having tandems by the door WOULD be a problem.

Just wanted to see what other people thought about this practice.

Oh, hello again!