You just don't give a shit...do you?

[wmw999 2,122]

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2 very different chops, and I had no problem carrying out my procedures

An RSL isn't to make sure you pull your reserve at all (although it does that admirably). It's to make sure that it's pulled in a timely fashion, like, for instance, when you fight line twists for 1400' and finally chop at 1000', then take a couple of seconds to pull your reserve because the harness just shifted again, or because you're redded out from rotations. The guy who just died at WFFC probably had pulled his reserve, too.

I've pulled my reserve 9 times, and use an RSL. It pulled my reserve for me on my last cutaway, but my hand was on the handle. Fine with me. It was a spinner, at a bigway camp. What if I'd sucked it down because of separation problems, and what if I'd decided to see if I could kick out or release the other brake? I might be too low.

You want to consider ALL of the applications of each safety device, not just the first one.

There are problems it can create. In my thinking, they're less likely FOR ME than the ones it can alleviate. But you do have to think of all of them.

Wendy W.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[nate_1979 9]

and I'm aware that in the event I was low, and needed to chop, the RSL could make a big difference... Guess I just better not find myself at 1000 feet chopping, ... I've thought about that too... This is a debate that's happened many times here, I choose, for myself, that I dont want it.. I will do everything I can to be out of my main and pulling a reserve before it's too late. If I enter a situation that I can not do this, well I guess that was just my day, and I'll either be going to a better place at that point or in the hospital

I really did think it through, alot.. i didnt just decide one day to take it out..

FGF #???
I miss the sky...
There are 10 types of people in the world... those who understand binary and those who don't.

[airtwardo 6]

Seeing that the device can work for and against you, and I have seen twice that I would have been fine without it, my logic says that the device now has a greater chance of hurting me than helping me do something I can already do on my own... Flame away, but that's just how I see it...

***

FAR be for ME to flame anyone!

But...how do you perceive an RSL having a chance to hurt you?

...I don't understand your logic, done twice w/o and RSL, and don't need something to do what 'I can already do on my own'...

But WON'T jump w/o an AAD, even though you are 60 times more sure you can open the main w/o assistance...?

~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

[kelpdiver 2]

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No RSL because I thought about it, alot, weighed the risk of not having an RSL to the risk of having an RSL (because they exist both ways) and decided that I'd rather not have one... 2 very different chops, and I had no problem carrying out my procedures.

I see some conflict here with the always AAD notion, too. I'm not going to reconsider the RSL question until I do chop - you already have checked off there - but the positives seem to greatly outweight the negatives, and it's a lot cheaper than a Cypres. Can be disconnected at will too.

On the usual silly gear dependency theme- someone who will only jump with a cypres has only proven they're as dependent on that device as they are on the container, main, and reserve. As Wendy writes, it's about risk mitigation.

FTR, I've done jumps without one of the two a few times each.

[nate_1979 9]

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But...how do you perceive an RSL having a chance to hurt you?

All unlikely to happen, but accidental riser release, riser breakage, one riser release during chop (all preventable I know) ... Reserve fire on back (happened to me on first mal, I had PLENTY of altitude to correct, not a big deal, but if you have time to correct why not do it?), etc. etc.

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...I don't understand your logic, done twice w/o and RSL, and don't need something to do what 'I can already do on my own'...

If I chop, I should have enough altitude to deploy my reserve on my own.. If I dont have enough, i've already made a chain of mistakes and now I just compounded it, guess I have what happens coming to me. I had RSL for my first two, now I dont.

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But WON'T jump w/o an AAD, even though you are 60 times more sure you can open the main w/o assistance...?

I know someone just argued this statement earlier, but I'm gonna stick with it anyway... My cypress will only fire if I am unable to act (i.e. knocked out, paralized, dead, ....).. I promise. It is there to pull for me when I am not capable, and give me a second chance in doing so.

FGF #???
I miss the sky...
There are 10 types of people in the world... those who understand binary and those who don't.

[wmw999 2,122]

The other thing is that each person should constantly be re-evaluating the risks, and making decisions.

I come from the past; the vast majority of my jumps are made without either AAD or RSL. When I came back into the sport, I got a rig with an AAD (preference, not requirement) and an RSL. I took the RSL off, due to, well, just thinking about the possible bad stuff that could happen.

Then someone died at WFFC a couple of years ago on a low cutaway. Just lost track of what he was doing. Very experienced, the kind of steady guy that no one would think of doing that. An RSL would probably have saved him.

So I looked at the info -- some of the risks of RSL don't really apply to me. The biggest benefit clearly does, so it gets re-evaluated.

Always be open to re-evaluating your decision train. I just changed how I pack recently, too. And I might change again.

Wendy W.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[wmw999 2,122]

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My cypress will only fire if I am unable to act (i.e. knocked out, paralized, dead, ....).. I promise

Do you promise then to make sure and die if you do lose track of altitude and it fires because of that?
Evidence is that the overwhelming majority of Cypres fires are not because of that. Evidence is that there is a very small number of people who are, in fact, incapacitated and the Cypres helps them. Not zero, by no means. But I'm much more likely to fuck up than to be knocked unconscious. And, well, if I'm knocked unconscious, I might have contributed to that, too.

Wendy W.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[mdrejhon 8]

I personally was prepared to test-jump my first rig without an AAD (in order to avoid waiting till a subsequent weekend), but they offered to install a nearly-new Cypres2 AAD into it, so I went for that. Downside, I had to pay $1000 CDN more ($800 USD) when I bought the rig. Still not a bad price for a 2 year old Cypres2 with 10 years left!

I have never jumped without an AAD, but I'm not afraid to jump standard solo if the AAD was away for servicing. I would be more likely to avoid H+P's and RW's with guys I'ver never jumped with before, though...

[Trae 1]

Just wondering how many people AAD's ( Cypree in particular) have killed over the years by allowing people that wouldn't otherwise skydive to inhabit the sport.

Might new thread this one.

[kelpdiver 2]

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Just wondering how many people AAD's ( Cypree in particular) have killed over the years by allowing people that wouldn't otherwise skydive to inhabit the sport.

Don't see how you can make that determination. Roughly half of deaths are canopy related, so I think we can eliminate them. Not sure which others might show clear gear dependency - maybe some of the deploy time collisions of INadvisable group jumps.

You do have the save database, and the almost total elimination of no pull deaths on the other side. The ratio of the two (normalized for any changes in jumper population) is the concern you have.

I suspect it would come out better than the airbag, which has killed way too many people to be mandatory equipment for saving unbelted people (USA airbag standards).

[billvon 2,400]

>Just wondering how many people AAD's ( Cypree in particular) have
> killed over the years by allowing people that wouldn't otherwise
> skydive to inhabit the sport.

Only one I know of for sure, who actually told his friends he wouldn't be jumping if not for his cypres. One day he had to bail out of an aircraft just below 1500 feet (before his cypres had armed) and pulled all the wrong handles.

[Deuce 1]

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>Just wondering how many people AAD's ( Cypree in particular) have
> killed over the years by allowing people that wouldn't otherwise
> skydive to inhabit the sport.

Only one I know of for sure, who actually told his friends he wouldn't be jumping if not for his cypres. One day he had to bail out of an aircraft just below 1500 feet (before his cypres had armed) and pulled all the wrong handles.

Wrong order?

[nate_1979 9]

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Do you promise then to make sure and die if you do lose track of altitude and it fires because of that?

well, that's kinda hard to do... but you all can kick my ass if I have a fire due to my stupidity

FGF #???
I miss the sky...
There are 10 types of people in the world... those who understand binary and those who don't.

[pilotdave 0]

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All unlikely to happen, but accidental riser release, riser breakage, one riser release during chop (all preventable I know) ... Reserve fire on back

This could be a friggin ad for a SkyHook equipped Vector 3. Nothing listed wasn't fixed by it.

I'm curious... if you won a free vector 3, would you have it equipped with a skyhook?

Dave

[nate_1979 9]

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All unlikely to happen, but accidental riser release, riser breakage, one riser release during chop (all preventable I know) ... Reserve fire on back

This could be a friggin ad for a SkyHook equipped Vector 3. Nothing listed wasn't fixed by it.

I'm curious... if you won a free vector 3, would you have it equipped with a skyhook?

Dave

Yes, if I could equip my rig with skyhook I would do that too... If I was shopping for a new container, I would definately consider a rig that could have skyhook...

FGF #???
I miss the sky...
There are 10 types of people in the world... those who understand binary and those who don't.

[MikeForsythe 0]

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I choose, for myself, that I dont want it..

Really? Try again, you are making a choice for other people too. I am so sick and tired of people thinking that the universe revolves around them and that they are smarter and wiser than the industry as a whole.

So when you make a mistake based on your decision and you land in someone’s back yard and kill their kid or hit another skydiver I guess that decision you made was not just for you and actually affected someone else? And I guess that there would also not be the possibility of hitting someone under you that could have been prevented by a higher deployment? And I also guess that having extra altitude and time to maybe pick a better landing area would be bad too?

In the end if you manage to only kill yourself for the choice you made just remember that it won’t be you that has to deal with the pain of those who loved you or have to watch you die needlessly.

So, through caution, good sense and safety to the wind because in the end it is all about YOU!

Time and pressure will always show you who a person really is!

[nate_1979 9]

Sorry, but IMO the choice of RSL or no RSL is purely a personal choice. When is the last time someone without an RSL killed or hurt someone else, and would not have done so if they had an RSL? To have an RSL or not is a personal choice that YOU, YOURSELF, do have to make. It's one of the few that doesnt impact other people. People die with them, they die without them. I choose what I did because I feel better without it. There are people in the industry and jumpers with high jump numbers that feel the same way about RSL as I do, and there is alot of them that dont.. It all comes down to what you feel is better for you in this case isnt it?

I am far from someone who just goes around making choices not concerned about other people, .. I dont want to hurt anyone else as much as I dont want to hurt myself. I never said I was smarter than the industry, and dont believe that I am. It is a personal choice, and it does not affect you.

This really sucks, because I dont want to come accross as someone who thinks I know more than a guy with 1800 jumps, because I dont feel that way, and I value everything that you guys have to say, but there are a few things in this sport, many of them having to do with emergency procedures and practices, that a jumper has to make his own decisions after listening to what people say and hope he / she is right. That is what I have done.

FGF #???
I miss the sky...
There are 10 types of people in the world... those who understand binary and those who don't.

[Ron 7]

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Wrong order?

Yes, I have a dead friend based on this as well...Maybe the same guy Bill is talking about.

Anywho on a climb to altitude an observer turned the fuel selector on the Cessna to "off"

3 jumpers on the plane. About 1300-1400 feet.

1. Bails out on main, opens LOW. Pilot/Rigger/Instructor tells the number two guy to go on his reserve.

2. Climbs out jumps and pulls the CUTAWAY. Wonders what the hell is going on and throws the MAIN. which was cutaway. RSL pulls the reserve which never opens.

3. Goes out on reserve.

Pilot switches the selector valve and lands the plane with the observer.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[pilotdave 0]

How many innocent bystanders have ever been killed by freefalling skydivers? The RSL/No-RSL issue has been discussed on the internet exactly 500,326 times. That's gotta be the wackiest argument for an RSL I've heard yet.

Anyone got a "good" anti-RSL argument??

Edit: sorry, make that 500,327. I forgot one on the wuza.net forums.

Dave

[chaoskitty 0]

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As I said in the other forum..I primarily rely on myself, but having backups isn't such a bad idea either. What about the scenario that I'm knocked out and can't pull?

Please, read this report and tell me how many saves were from people being knocked out.

I've seen 2 Cypres saves. One was a head v. wing knock out. Jumper survived with a black eye because of the AAD. The other was a low timer struggling for too long with the main handle.
Different situations, but both jumpers are still here.

[Ron 7]

OK but how many reported CYPRES saves were do to that?

Answer 16 out of 393.

Thats a very small %.

Read the reports sometime, don't use anicdotal evidence.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[MikeForsythe 0]

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Thats a very small %.

Not if you are one of the 16!

Time and pressure will always show you who a person really is!

[popsjumper 2]

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...ONE of them is less attention seems to be paid to the life saving portion of the sport. Instead people focus on points in time and cool canopies and matching jumpsuits. It is only one of the reasons, but it is the most glaring since it is so easy to control.

Amen, brother!
I call it stupidity but then I am a harsh ass, eh?


For me:

RSL = No
I don't want the reserve coming out until I want it out.

Cypres = Yes
Just in case I am unable to throw the reserve or I do something stupid and hopefully it will work and save by butt.

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[Ragnarok 0]

Intyeresting to see such a discussion on safety. I can see where an AAD will lend to someone having a 'false sense of security' by having one. I thought training, maintaining awareness, and a healthy respect for gravity were the most important factors to jumping safely - not having an AAD. Failsafe's can be a good thing, but soon enough, we will be jumping with lights, first aid kits, flares, strobe lights, full face helmets, 4 canopies, and a large pillow strapped to our butts.

Proper Planning Prevents Piss Poor Performance. I honestly would rather fly the canopy than low-pull. Seems most of the deaths are caused by the jumper doing something extreme, like swooping, than anything.

Since I am a Noob, I don't expect what I said to be taken that I think I am smart because I read alittle about skydiving. I want to be as safe as I can also, but I don't want my jumping to be affected wether I have an AAD or not.

After all, I survived Iraq for a year. I wore 45lbs extra weight in armor, ammo, and water. I would rather take the 15 minutes to put everything on for a 10 minute trip and nothing happen than not be wearing it and the shit hits the fan......

When it is your time, it is your time - live it up while you are still here..........

_________________________________________
Twin Otter N203-Echo,29 July 2006
Cessna P206 N2537X, 19 April 2008
Blue Skies Forever

[MikeForsythe 0]

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Sorry, but IMO the choice of RSL or no RSL is purely a personal choice.

I agree, but the point that I was making is that the choice that you make can affect other people.

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and it does not affect you.

Then why do I have rigs here from fatalities that I have to deal with? Trust me when I say anytime there is a fatality it affects a lot of people.

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How many innocent bystanders have ever been killed by freefalling skydivers?

Don’t know, how many does it take before you do somethig about it? What I do know is that in the last few years we have had skydivers go in on golf courses, cars, back yards, shopping centers, roofs and streets to name a few. All those areas are where people routinely are. In one case the skydiver landed 10’ from a person on the ground. That is close enough for me. And why do we have to have something happen first when it could have been prevented?

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That's gotta be the wackiest argument for an RSL I've heard yet.

If that were the case I would agree. And it is statements like that is one that is one of the reasons that I have a job. Finding the “wackiest” things that can cause a failure to prevent hearing the next saying, “wow, never saw that before” is what helps make equipment and skydiving safer. Part of what I do is to make things fail that people say can’t. And I wasn’t making a case for RSL’s rather that decisions that you make can affect other people.

Time and pressure will always show you who a person really is!