tvo7 0 #1 August 10, 2005 I read about incidents and malfunctions that result in bad outcomes. Is it possible to make skydiving even safer by adding a third chute. Meaining main, reserve, and a third chute that is hanging off your chest. Couldn't this prevent the malfunctions where reserve gets tangled in the main, etc? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nate_1979 9 #2 August 10, 2005 Would you really want to wear something like that?? FGF #??? I miss the sky... There are 10 types of people in the world... those who understand binary and those who don't. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
MB38 0 #3 August 10, 2005 Forgive me if I'm wrong, but I remember reading some statistic [and remember that 94% of statistics are made up on the spot] that effectively said that most injuries and fatalities come from user error. Generally, it's either a bad swoop or loss of altitude awareness. This is all what I've been told... I'm not experienced enough to speak from anything else. Would a third parachute help? My guess is no. Double malfunctions generally come from the reserve getting tangled in the malfunctioning main. I've yet to hear of [and remember, no experience...] a case where the reserve actually malfunctioned on its own [beyond line twists from the jumper being unstable] and caused a severe injury or death. Reading through the incidents forum will do nothing but make you nervous. Major incidents are so few and far between that you end up hearing about them... it makes skydiving seem dangerous. If you heard about ever car accident [I know, the same old comparison] that occurred, you'd be terrified to drive. Back to the question again. Will a third parachute help? You deploy your main at 5,000 feet and determine it's bad by 3,000-3,500. You cut away and have a reserve over your head by 2,000-2,500 in theory. The reserve's bad. You go for your second reserve and have a canopy over your head by 1,000 feet. Right? I don't think so. Your main malfunctions, you're spinning. 99% of the time when you cut away, you're fine. Reserve opens up and you're rocking. That nasty 1% of the time might send the two canopies blasting into each other, sending you towards the earth with a lot of useless fabric over your head but no way to cut it loose. What do you think that third parachute's going to do? Add to the fun above your head. My jumpmaster has approximately 14,000 jumps and 7 reserve rides. Each reserve deployment was clean. That should put it in perspective.I really don't know what I'm talking about. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tdog 0 #4 August 10, 2005 Your question is not stupid... However, do you know how many times people died because the gear 100% malfunctioned and they did not "participate" in causing that malfunction? Not as often as you would think. Most of the time human error causes the malfunction (two out from going low and getting a AAD fire, pulling wrong handles or no handles, etc)... You actually made me look at the fatality reports on this website and look at the 25 deaths linked to "malfunctions." Many really are "human errors"... I don't see many where a third canopy would have helped... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
airtwardo 6 #5 August 10, 2005 Do a search for more info... RiggerRob Says~ Chest-mounted tertiary reserves come in two styles: certified and non-certified. Both types are only available with round canopies. Cobaltdan's reference to chest-mounted squares is only available to smoke jumpers and factory test-jumpers. I doubt if any factory will sell a chest-mounted square to a fun jumper. Most of the certified chest-mounted reserves built in the 1970s can be used as tertiary reserves. The better round canopies (i.e. TSO C23B standard category) will survive terminal openings. Check if the pilotchute was removed, because that vastly changes deployment procedures to the point where you may have to shove your hands inside the pack and feed the canopy out by hand. A variety of non-certified tertiary reserves are available from the hang-gliding/para-gliding communities. These are strictly low-speed parachutes. Any attempt to deploy them at terminal velocity will result in damaged canopies and spines. Attaching a tertiary reserve to any harness requires the assistance of a rigger. If the harness has large chest rings, it is easy. Just clip the hooks onto the chest rings and then ask your local rigger to rig a waist belt. If your harness does not have chest rings, then you have to convince your local master rigger to sew on a pair of D-rings. Don't take strapping on a tertiary reserve lightly. Any jump with extra equipment, be it flags, smoke or tertiary reserves deserves detailed planning and rehearsals, on a par with serious test-jumping or movie stunt work. Hint, ask the advice of the oldest fart on your DZ who has jumped with a belly-mounted reserve. Okay..that being said. Round parachutes have an inherent malfunction rate of 1%, meaning one time out of one hundred they will malfunction for not apparent reason. Square parachutes have NO inherent malfunction rate. So if you take out the human factor, your main will always work. Since if you do remove the human factor, it’s not skydiving anymore...so we carry two. Doubles you chances of getting a landable canopy...if as others have stated here..YOU don’t screw up! A rigger/inventor buddy of mine did some research years ago... It would be possible to manufacture a tertiary type last ditch reserve for jumpers. A compressed gas rocket that would pull a 17 foot round parachute that’s attached to a single line out and away from you and hopefully above a tangled mess of malfunctioning squares... could be made It would weigh just under ten pounds and be about 15 inches long and 3 inches across. Rigged with a cypress ‘type’ of activation device the cost would be in the area of 5500.00 It would have to be mounted so it would launch out and not up... Picture that in your mind.... THAT’S why there is such a devise currently on the market! ~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,404 #6 August 10, 2005 >Couldn't this prevent the malfunctions where reserve gets tangled in >the main, etc? If the reserve gets tangled in the main, what would cause a third canopy to clear the mess? And I am sure you have reviewed dealing with a two-out - imagine dealing with a three-out. 90% of the time, I think a third canopy would cause more problems than it solves. That being said, there are some cases (CRW, intentional cutaways) where a third reserve (often called a tertiary, or tersh) might be useful. I have thought about a chest-mount 20' free-sleeved reserve with inversion netting that could be used for intentional cutaways. With a 20' reserve you're almost certainly going to break something when you land, but you will likely survive. The container would also be fairly small. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
slug 1 #7 August 10, 2005 Hi AT How about instead of a third canopy using 2 cypres's, 2 protacs, 2 or more altimeters,and a brand new rig on every jump. Almost forgot minimum opening altitude of 7,000'. If 5k is good than 7k might be better. R.I.P. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RkyMtnHigh 0 #8 August 10, 2005 First of all..no question in this sport is "stupid"...secondly wearing a third on your chest is a demo jumper...they really do exist! So train train train...and be a demo jumper for PD _________________________________________ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
airtwardo 6 #9 August 10, 2005 QuoteHi AT How about instead of a third canopy using 2 cypres's, 2 protacs, 2 or more altimeters,and a brand new rig on every jump. Almost forgot minimum opening altitude of 7,000'. If 5k is good than 7k might be better. R.I.P. *** Howdie Slug~! Ejection Seats seem to work 'ALL' the time...! ~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tvo7 0 #10 August 10, 2005 I was thinking about cases where a jumper goes out spins, loses control with the main. Get wrapped up in his main, tries to deploy reserve but it too gets stuck in all the mess. Jumper cuts away as much of the mess as he could then deploys the 3rd chute. MAybe this might be extreme case but just having third chute there might make one feel more safe in the air knowing you have a backup to a backup. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
slug 1 #11 August 10, 2005 QuoteQuoteHi AT How about instead of a third canopy using 2 cypres's, 2 protacs, 2 or more altimeters,and a brand new rig on every jump. Almost forgot minimum opening altitude of 7,000'. If 5k is good than 7k might be better. R.I.P. *** Howdie Slug~! Ejection Seats seem to work 'ALL' the time...! Hi AT The seats sure do work every time even when very low or at ground level. The E-seat is definatly worth the money, especially if I'm sitting in it. Have you ever seen one go off at a air show? We've seen the pics of the russian pilot punching out very low. One swing befor landing but he made it. Maybe a pneumatic propeled reserve for skydiving If a person feels the need, a PC is sooo retro R.I.P. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dragon2 0 #12 August 10, 2005 QuoteI was thinking about cases where a jumper goes out spins, loses control with the main. Get wrapped up in his main, tries to deploy reserve but it too gets stuck in all the mess. Jumper cuts away as much of the mess as he could then deploys the 3rd chute. MAybe this might be extreme case but just having third chute there might make one feel more safe in the air knowing you have a backup to a backup. If you cannot cutaway your main like in your scenario the first time, why would you be able to cut it away the 2nd time?? Esp with another canopy, your reserve, added into the mess. Also, this scenario requires a RESERVE that you can cutaway. There's a reason you can't do that on a normal rig: if it can be done, someone will! A tersh might help, I personally know of 2 jumpers it saved (on a CREW jump), but it also has potential negative effects. I think there used to be multiple canopies rigs around, I also think a lot of those jumpers died. More complicated in this case was more dangerous! ciel bleu, Saskia Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
piisfish 135 #13 August 10, 2005 Quote Is it possible to make skydiving even safer by adding a third chute. Meaining main, reserve, and a third chute that is hanging off your chest. At our DZ we take a belly mounted reserve in case of intentionnal cutaway jumps.scissors beat paper, paper beat rock, rock beat wingsuit - KarlM Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
CornishChris 5 #14 August 10, 2005 QuoteEjection Seats seem to work 'ALL' the time...! Tell that to Goose. CJP Gods don't kill people. People with Gods kill people Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
airtwardo 6 #15 August 10, 2005 QuoteQuoteEjection Seats seem to work 'ALL' the time...! Tell that to Goose. *** Yeah..he should have gone with Truck Masters !! ~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rehmwa 2 #16 August 10, 2005 QuoteIs it possible to make skydiving even safer by adding a third chute? Take a 3rd chute sized appropriately for the newbie 'swooper wannabe'. Take away his "I downsized too early because I am better than every thinks I am at swooping" main. Replace with the 3rd chute. Use the first chute on the ground to catch him when he hooks too low (even under the bigger 'first' chute). Yup - a 3rd chute would help save lives and reduce injuries. But Darwin would be pissed. ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
airtwardo 6 #17 August 10, 2005 But Darwin would be pissed. *** About sums it up...well put! ~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
goose491 0 #18 August 10, 2005 QuoteQuoteEjection Seats seem to work 'ALL' the time...! Tell that to Goose. Huh?... what? ... hello? Oh, you were talking about Top Gun... I see. "You'vegot to let him go sir!... Sir! You have to let him go!" My Karma ran over my Dogma!!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ripcord4 0 #19 August 10, 2005 . A compressed gas rocket that would pull a 17 foot round parachute that’s attached to a single line out and away from you and hopefully above a tangled mess of malfunctioning squares... could be made It would weigh just under ten pounds and be about 15 inches long and 3 inches across. Rigged with a cypress ‘type’ of activation device the cost would be in the area of 5500.00 ________________________________________________ When we speak of pneumatically and ballistically launched tertiary reserves, let us not forget Mr. Newton - - action and reaction - - a ny device launched with enough energy to clear a malfunction would HURT Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nate_1979 9 #20 August 10, 2005 lol FGF #??? I miss the sky... There are 10 types of people in the world... those who understand binary and those who don't. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
goose491 0 #21 August 10, 2005 QuoteWhen we speak of pneumatically and ballistically launched tertiary reserves, let us not forget Mr. Newton - - action and reaction - - a ny device launched with enough energy to clear a malfunction would HURT But here we are not talking about either pneumatical or ballistic lauch... we are talking about rocket launch. Mr. Netown would talk of the action of expanding gases on the rocket, met by reaction of the rocket against the expanding gases. There is no recoil to firing a rocket launcher. My Karma ran over my Dogma!!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ripcord4 0 #22 August 11, 2005 QuoteQuoteWhen we speak of pneumatically and ballistically launched tertiary reserves, let us not forget Mr. Newton - - action and reaction - - a ny device launched with enough energy to clear a malfunction would HURT But here we are not talking about either pneumatical or ballistic lauch... we are talking about rocket launch. Mr. Netown would talk of the action of expanding gases on the rocket, met by reaction of the rocket against the expanding gases. There is no recoil to firing a rocket launcher. There is no recoil to firing a RECOILESS rocket launcher, i.e., one open at the back to vent the gasses. If this is the style you want to use, what will be the effect of these hot gasses on the jumper? A closed system will recoil against the jumper. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
airtwardo 6 #23 August 11, 2005 When we speak of pneumatically and ballistically launched tertiary reserves, let us not forget Mr. Newton - - action and reaction - - a ny device launched with enough energy to clear a malfunction would HURT *** So does IMPACT! ....Just not a LONG! ~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
goose491 0 #24 August 11, 2005 You'd want it open I presume. Quotewhat will be the effect of these hot gasses on the jumper? I believe the concept posted was refering to compressed gas. It would be cold upon expansion. My Karma ran over my Dogma!!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ripcord4 0 #25 August 11, 2005 QuoteYou'd want it open I presume. Quotewhat will be the effect of these hot gasses on the jumper? I believe the concept posted was refering to compressed gas. It would be cold upon expansion. It would still recoil in a closed launch, hot or cold. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
