Nightingale 0 #1 May 17, 2004 yesterday, I was sitting out on the grass at Elsinore and saw something scary... someone off student status, but not licensed yet (doing solos) punched a hard toggle turn at approx 1200 feet. This induced line twists, and he chopped pretty low. I had a couple of questions... how much toggle input is too much? what makes a canopy get line twists like that, and how does one prevent it? I did a high alti hop n pop yesterday and was playing with my canopy pretty agressively, but I didn't have any line twist problems. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Unstable 8 #2 May 17, 2004 The first jump course outline give some general recommedations for control input - it gives guidelines like Nothing more than a 360 degree turn lower than 1,500, nothing moe than 180 below 1,000', nothing more than 90 degree turns below 500', and only minimal corrections below 200'. However, to further answer the question, let me refer you to Bill Von's 10 Things that Will Keep you Alive I think almost any question in this forum can be answered by that articel. Mad props to Bill. =========Shaun ========== Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RyanofOZ 0 #3 May 17, 2004 Strange.. Obviously it is possible seeing as you witnessed it, but I have never see in or heard of it really. I fly my canopy very hard at altitude and have never been able to twist it up from toggle input. I am sure it would be easier to do on something more elliptical than I have but it still must be hard. I am sure the more experienced guys / gals here will know more but maybe its just something that certain canopys are more prone to?Oz Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bch7773 0 #4 May 17, 2004 Quote how much toggle input is too much? what makes a canopy get line twists like that, and how does one prevent it? I did a high alti hop n pop yesterday and was playing with my canopy pretty agressively, but I didn't have any line twist problems. the basic thing to remember about hard toggle turns is to ease into them. if you go from toggles all the way up, then pull one all the way down, you will probably spin up. but if you first pull the toggle down about a quarter or halfway down, then pull it all the way down slowly, you will do fine. ease into the turns. the reason for this is because you have to get your body rotating at about the same speed as the canopy. pulling the toggle down some before a major turn gets your body rotating. new skydivers that just downsized sometimes have that problem... they are used to big student canopies that you can bury a toggle and it barely turns, and so they do the same thing on a smaller canopy and they get spun up. and as with any canopy radical manuevers or spirals, do them up high. MB 3528, RB 1182 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sdctlc 0 #5 May 17, 2004 When playing with any canopy, even the "slower" ones you can induce line twists by doing a hard jab down on a toggle. This happens when the sudden input gets the canopy turning but there is no momentum with you so the end result can be you not turning and a line twist. When I talk to students about this I will generally suggest that if they want to do very aggressive turns do them up high and get their motion going with a split second or two of a small input then pull the toggle down. Basically this will get your body starting to move with the turn and then when you jam a toggle down your momentum is already starting in the right direction so the chance to a line twist is greatly reduced. Scott C. Quoteyesterday, I was sitting out on the grass at Elsinore and saw something scary... someone off student status, but not licensed yet (doing solos) punched a hard toggle turn at approx 1200 feet. This induced line twists, and he chopped pretty low. I had a couple of questions... how much toggle input is too much? what makes a canopy get line twists like that, and how does one prevent it? I did a high alti hop n pop yesterday and was playing with my canopy pretty agressively, but I didn't have any line twist problems."He who Hesitates Shall Inherit the Earth!" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,400 #6 May 17, 2004 >what makes a canopy get line twists like that . . . One thing that can do it is a stall turn. Pull down both brakes, hard, wait until the stall break (it feels like you're falling backwards) and then let one toggle all the way up without letting up the other one. That will make the canopy turn _very_ fast, almost in place. That can lead to line twist. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nanook 1 #7 May 17, 2004 It's more of the rate of the pull rather than amount of the toggle. Too much toggle is when you see your canopy overhead start to turn faster than your body or maybe a slight unloading in your seat and your shoulder opposite of the toggle pivots towards the ground. Best prevention is to know when it's going to happen. When you feel the line twist start to happen, just grab your risers and spread them. You will still turn radically but if you are fast enough you can at least prevent the twisting._____________________________ "The trouble with quotes on the internet is that you can never know if they are genuine" - Abraham Lincoln Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
riddler 0 #8 May 17, 2004 Quote I fly my canopy very hard at altitude and have never been able to twist it up from toggle input. It's very easy to do this. I've induced line twists using only toggles on a square canopy loaded at 1:1. Flying hard isn't necessarily the same thing as flying at the edge of the performance envelope. I'm still really learning about my canopy, but I believe the best way to learn about what your canopy can do is to find out where all the performance edges are. Flying fast and initiating fast turns can tell you about one aspect of your canopy. Flying really slow, finding your stall point, and seeing how turns develop in a stall and close to a stall is another aspect. Practicing with all eight control inputs is another aspect. There are many others, and I don't think I even know what they all are yet.Trapped on the surface of a sphere. XKCD Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JohnMitchell 14 #9 May 17, 2004 Like Bill says, slowing way down and turning hard is the easiest way to do it. A fast toggle input at regular speed can even do it. Nothing wrong with 360 degree turns or more below this altitude or that, but close to the ground you need to stay inside the performance envelope of the canopy for safety. Toggle inputs and flight in general should be done smoothly. That's how you maximize your canopies performance anyway. Jerky inputs make for poor aerodynamics, My $.02. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites AndyMan 7 #10 May 17, 2004 In addition to stalling the canopy like Bill says, I've found out (the hard way), that its easy to spin up a canopy if you do an aggresive series of left/right/left/right. Avoiding it is simple - smooth toggle movements. You CAN go from full left toggle to full right toggle if you want to - just do it smoothly and slowly. _Am__ You put the fun in "funnel" - craichead. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites obelixtim 100 #11 May 17, 2004 Keep in mind....If you have an AAD, steep turns down low could risk a two out situation....Murphy's law at work.......My computer beat me at chess, It was no match for me at kickboxing.... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites FallnAngel 0 #12 May 17, 2004 Steve's (Landmissle) cutaway at 70 jumps was as a result of self-induced line twists at 1800'. He was flying in deep brakes waiting for the landing pattern to clear. Then instead of going back to full flight before making a turn he buried a toggle. He chopped within seconds as he was spinning back to earth. From what I understand, he was flying the canopy close to the stall point. When he initiated the turn he stalled one side of the canopy, which spun it around on itself. Several instructors referred to it as "helicoptering" Whatever it's called, it was damn scary to watch! Perhaps this is similar to what happened in the situation you witnessed? Karen Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites billvon 2,400 #13 May 17, 2004 >steep turns down low could risk a two out situation....Murphy's law at >work....... Experience has shown that you have to load a canopy well beyond 2:1 to have that be an issue. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Michele 1 #14 May 17, 2004 QuotePerhaps this is similar to what happened in the situation you witnessed? Sounds a lot like it, but a whole lot lower. I don't think he was in a stall, though. I think he was just getting super aggressive very low. It was rather unnerving to watch, especially as I couldn't see the reserve right away. Ciels- Michele ~Do Angels keep the dreams we seek While our hearts lie bleeding?~ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites piisfish 135 #15 May 17, 2004 Quote>steep turns down low could risk a two out situation....Murphy's law at >work....... Experience has shown that you have to load a canopy well beyond 2:1 to have that be an issue. is it also correct with a student cypres ??scissors beat paper, paper beat rock, rock beat wingsuit - KarlM Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites billvon 2,400 #16 May 17, 2004 >is it also correct with a student cypres ?? Student cypreses fire at a much lower speed; you can get them to fire even under a normal (1 to 1 loaded) canopy if you really wind it up. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Nightingale 0 #17 May 17, 2004 I believe this guy was jumping student gear. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Michele 1 #18 May 17, 2004 QuoteI believe this guy was jumping student gear. Yes, he was. Ciels- Michele ~Do Angels keep the dreams we seek While our hearts lie bleeding?~ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites obelixtim 100 #19 May 17, 2004 I was generalising about AAD's.....and student AAD's are included.......FXC's and Cypres.... Murphys Law.....particularly applies to skydiving........My computer beat me at chess, It was no match for me at kickboxing.... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites FallnAngel 0 #20 May 18, 2004 Quote-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Quote -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Perhaps this is similar to what happened in the situation you witnessed? -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Sounds a lot like it, but a whole lot lower. I don't think he was in a stall, though. I think he was just getting super aggressive very low. It was rather unnerving to watch, especially as I couldn't see the reserve right away. Ciels- Michele I can just imagine how you felt watching this from the ground! I know how scared I felt watching when Steve's canopy twisted up. The good thing is that others get to learn from it, not just the jumper it happened to. I know I learned a few things from Steve's cutaway. Just curious...did he have an RSL on the gear? And did he make any comments later about what happened? Did he seek out the advice of any instructors after this happened? (I'm sure hoping he did!) Glad it all turned out ok! Blue ones, Karen Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites skyyhi 0 #21 May 18, 2004 QuoteI believe this guy was jumping student gear. No, he was not. He was jumping the Javelin with the Sabre 2 190 rental from Ground Zero. He is licensed and has low jump numbers.________________________________________ Take risks not to escape life… but to prevent life from escaping. ~ A bumper sticker at the DZ FGF #6 Darcy Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites skyyhi 0 #22 May 18, 2004 QuoteJust curious...did he have an RSL on the gear? And did he make any comments later about what happened? Did he seek out the advice of any instructors after this happened? (I'm sure hoping he did!) Yes, there was an RSL on the container and it was hooked up. And yes, he did talk to an instructor about it later. When I went to talk to him to see what happened he was already talking to Mark (Shark) and a couple others. That is where I got my information from. He understands why what he did caused problems and has been instructed in how to avoid doing that in the future.________________________________________ Take risks not to escape life… but to prevent life from escaping. ~ A bumper sticker at the DZ FGF #6 Darcy Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Michele 1 #23 May 18, 2004 Thanks for getting it straight, Darcy! I didn't get involved, so wasn't sure of the particulars. All I know is it was scary watching. Ciels- Michele ~Do Angels keep the dreams we seek While our hearts lie bleeding?~ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites 3ringheathen 0 #24 May 18, 2004 Hey Scott: It's been several years...maybe 5-6 years ago: I recall you spinning up your Batwing at what I guessed was a wee bit less than a grand. No shit there I was, I thought you were going to die. I'd guess that the Batwing is a little easier to spin up than some others? -Josh If you have time to panic, you have time to do something more productive. -Me* *Ron has accused me of plagiarizing this quote. He attributes it to Douglas Adams. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites 3ringheathen 0 #25 May 18, 2004 Quote Toggle inputs and flight in general should be done smoothly. That's how you maximize your canopies performance anyway. Jerky inputs make for poor aerodynamics Well said, John. It's kind of like driving: stomping on the gas or the brakes is fun, but usually you won't speed up or slow down as quickly as you could with smoother techniques. -Josh If you have time to panic, you have time to do something more productive. -Me* *Ron has accused me of plagiarizing this quote. He attributes it to Douglas Adams. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1 2 Next Page 1 of 2 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. 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AndyMan 7 #10 May 17, 2004 In addition to stalling the canopy like Bill says, I've found out (the hard way), that its easy to spin up a canopy if you do an aggresive series of left/right/left/right. Avoiding it is simple - smooth toggle movements. You CAN go from full left toggle to full right toggle if you want to - just do it smoothly and slowly. _Am__ You put the fun in "funnel" - craichead. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
obelixtim 100 #11 May 17, 2004 Keep in mind....If you have an AAD, steep turns down low could risk a two out situation....Murphy's law at work.......My computer beat me at chess, It was no match for me at kickboxing.... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
FallnAngel 0 #12 May 17, 2004 Steve's (Landmissle) cutaway at 70 jumps was as a result of self-induced line twists at 1800'. He was flying in deep brakes waiting for the landing pattern to clear. Then instead of going back to full flight before making a turn he buried a toggle. He chopped within seconds as he was spinning back to earth. From what I understand, he was flying the canopy close to the stall point. When he initiated the turn he stalled one side of the canopy, which spun it around on itself. Several instructors referred to it as "helicoptering" Whatever it's called, it was damn scary to watch! Perhaps this is similar to what happened in the situation you witnessed? Karen Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,400 #13 May 17, 2004 >steep turns down low could risk a two out situation....Murphy's law at >work....... Experience has shown that you have to load a canopy well beyond 2:1 to have that be an issue. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Michele 1 #14 May 17, 2004 QuotePerhaps this is similar to what happened in the situation you witnessed? Sounds a lot like it, but a whole lot lower. I don't think he was in a stall, though. I think he was just getting super aggressive very low. It was rather unnerving to watch, especially as I couldn't see the reserve right away. Ciels- Michele ~Do Angels keep the dreams we seek While our hearts lie bleeding?~ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
piisfish 135 #15 May 17, 2004 Quote>steep turns down low could risk a two out situation....Murphy's law at >work....... Experience has shown that you have to load a canopy well beyond 2:1 to have that be an issue. is it also correct with a student cypres ??scissors beat paper, paper beat rock, rock beat wingsuit - KarlM Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,400 #16 May 17, 2004 >is it also correct with a student cypres ?? Student cypreses fire at a much lower speed; you can get them to fire even under a normal (1 to 1 loaded) canopy if you really wind it up. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Nightingale 0 #17 May 17, 2004 I believe this guy was jumping student gear. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Michele 1 #18 May 17, 2004 QuoteI believe this guy was jumping student gear. Yes, he was. Ciels- Michele ~Do Angels keep the dreams we seek While our hearts lie bleeding?~ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
obelixtim 100 #19 May 17, 2004 I was generalising about AAD's.....and student AAD's are included.......FXC's and Cypres.... Murphys Law.....particularly applies to skydiving........My computer beat me at chess, It was no match for me at kickboxing.... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
FallnAngel 0 #20 May 18, 2004 Quote-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Quote -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Perhaps this is similar to what happened in the situation you witnessed? -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Sounds a lot like it, but a whole lot lower. I don't think he was in a stall, though. I think he was just getting super aggressive very low. It was rather unnerving to watch, especially as I couldn't see the reserve right away. Ciels- Michele I can just imagine how you felt watching this from the ground! I know how scared I felt watching when Steve's canopy twisted up. The good thing is that others get to learn from it, not just the jumper it happened to. I know I learned a few things from Steve's cutaway. Just curious...did he have an RSL on the gear? And did he make any comments later about what happened? Did he seek out the advice of any instructors after this happened? (I'm sure hoping he did!) Glad it all turned out ok! Blue ones, Karen Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skyyhi 0 #21 May 18, 2004 QuoteI believe this guy was jumping student gear. No, he was not. He was jumping the Javelin with the Sabre 2 190 rental from Ground Zero. He is licensed and has low jump numbers.________________________________________ Take risks not to escape life… but to prevent life from escaping. ~ A bumper sticker at the DZ FGF #6 Darcy Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skyyhi 0 #22 May 18, 2004 QuoteJust curious...did he have an RSL on the gear? And did he make any comments later about what happened? Did he seek out the advice of any instructors after this happened? (I'm sure hoping he did!) Yes, there was an RSL on the container and it was hooked up. And yes, he did talk to an instructor about it later. When I went to talk to him to see what happened he was already talking to Mark (Shark) and a couple others. That is where I got my information from. He understands why what he did caused problems and has been instructed in how to avoid doing that in the future.________________________________________ Take risks not to escape life… but to prevent life from escaping. ~ A bumper sticker at the DZ FGF #6 Darcy Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Michele 1 #23 May 18, 2004 Thanks for getting it straight, Darcy! I didn't get involved, so wasn't sure of the particulars. All I know is it was scary watching. Ciels- Michele ~Do Angels keep the dreams we seek While our hearts lie bleeding?~ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
3ringheathen 0 #24 May 18, 2004 Hey Scott: It's been several years...maybe 5-6 years ago: I recall you spinning up your Batwing at what I guessed was a wee bit less than a grand. No shit there I was, I thought you were going to die. I'd guess that the Batwing is a little easier to spin up than some others? -Josh If you have time to panic, you have time to do something more productive. -Me* *Ron has accused me of plagiarizing this quote. He attributes it to Douglas Adams. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
3ringheathen 0 #25 May 18, 2004 Quote Toggle inputs and flight in general should be done smoothly. That's how you maximize your canopies performance anyway. Jerky inputs make for poor aerodynamics Well said, John. It's kind of like driving: stomping on the gas or the brakes is fun, but usually you won't speed up or slow down as quickly as you could with smoother techniques. -Josh If you have time to panic, you have time to do something more productive. -Me* *Ron has accused me of plagiarizing this quote. He attributes it to Douglas Adams. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
